martinfan5 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) The pricing side of this discussion drives me nuts. There are a lot of modelers who will say, "I would pay for quality" but when it comes time to put the bucks on the counter they scream like a stuck pig when they see the latest issue from Tamiya is $80 even when it includes photoetched grills and metal transfers for the badging or a aftermarket kit from Scale Motorsport is another $80 to $100. No one here will dispute that both of these companies produce some of the best stuff out there. Quality is available, but it comes at a price. As my grandmother would say, "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Before you say you would pay for quality, think about your last 5 purchases and see if that is really true. Did you go on eBay and buy two or three kits from somebodies old stash or did you go to a LHS and buy a truely quality model. Frankly, I know which way I went and it was for the quality. Old lumps just don't interest me. I would rather build something that is a pleasure to build, not something that fights me every step of the way. I have no problems with spending the money on a Tamiya kit, I just try and find it at the cheapest price I can , but in all seriousness, I have no problems spending a good amount of money one a kit, ($30 or more) on a kit that is detailed, or a nice kit in general that has no major issues when being built. Edited June 4, 2012 by martinfan5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel14 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Backing plates,, axle, wheels, NO backing plates,, maybe they dont stop? no alternater brackets or power steering brackets. Luckly you have a air cleaner to cover that thing called a carb.. Wiper blades, The kits with no tie rods or steering? Those plastic blobs on the firewall and inter fenders,, what are they?? I'll stop here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J. Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I have no problems with spending the money on a Tamiya kit, I just try and find it at the cheapest price I can , but in all seriousness, I have no problems spending a good amount of money one a kit, ($30 or more) on a kit that is detailed, or a nice kit in general that has no major issues when being built. Then you stand on my side of this hobby. There is a differance between the thrifty and the cheap. The cheap understand the value of money. The Thrifty understand the value of items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mademan Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Im far from cheap.... but I like a deal lol. Great kits, are few and far between, so generally Ill get a case of them to hold me over. my riecent favorite kits have been the re-release of the lowrider caddy, I grabbed up 2 cases of them, and a case of the new tool 2010 Camaro SS. Ive also got a bunch of the Mobius Hundson Hornet and a couple of the 300. Revell has stepped up their game ALLOT in the past few years, overall quality is great, look at all the 05+ mustangs, Camaro, 49 merc, black widdow chevy, for the most part they are great, sure they are approaching 25.00 + a kit, but what more can we ask for; everything is on the rise, fuel, etc. etc. Most of the new kits have those chunky non-discript tires..... however, I see people complaining about them lots, but 90% of people building these kits are using aftermarket wheels/tires anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesG Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I have a 20+ year old warbird trans am with Goodyear tires and nice dual carbs with linkage all original to the kit. If it could be done then is it too much to ask for that quality today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The most unrealistic part on every model car I've had is ... Besides the floating alternators...the driver and passengers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan White Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Most of the new kits have those chunky non-discript tires..... however, I see people complaining about them lots, but 90% of people building these kits are using aftermarket wheels/tires anyways. Mainly because the kit tires are usually junk. You know, I'd gladly pay a few bucks more a kit if it meant getting name brand tires. I mean, I'd be paying anyways for aftermarket stuff, and this way it would be going to the manufacturer. Plus it would mean more tires that I would want to use for other kits if I decided on aftermarket stuff anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J. Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I have a 20+ year old warbird trans am with Goodyear tires and nice dual carbs with linkage all original to the kit. If it could be done then is it too much to ask for that quality today? Not to much to ask unless a person would expect to get it for the same price. Inflation means that for the exact same thing +20 years you should be paying about 65% more and that is a general price. I think if you factor in the cost of petroleum you are well over that price. I am a believer in getting my bucks worth, but if the quality of a kit is better, then the reasonable expectation would be for the price to go up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinfan5 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Not to much to ask unless a person would expect to get it for the same price. Inflation means that for the exact same thing +20 years you should be paying about 65% more and that is a general price. I think if you factor in the cost of petroleum you are well over that price. I am a believer in getting my bucks worth, but if the quality of a kit is better, then the reasonable expectation would be for the price to go up. Right, but the price's of kits have gone up, but more then have of the new kits coming out are of old tooling, some good, some bad, and I dont think that some of the kits coming out are wroth the mark up of the MSRP being asked for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesG Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Not to much to ask unless a person would expect to get it for the same price. Inflation means that for the exact same thing +20 years you should be paying about 65% more and that is a general price. I think if you factor in the cost of petroleum you are well over that price. I am a believer in getting my bucks worth, but if the quality of a kit is better, then the reasonable expectation would be for the price to go up. I understand inflation and I'm not saying I should get a kit for the same 5 bucks I paid more than 20a years ago. But, that warbird didn't cost any more than any other kit at the time and the quality is better. Nor am I talking about photo etched parts and the like to recreate every little detail. My point is that there is no reason kit companies can't add a little more detail to parts already included in the box without tripling the price. They Sid it then they can do it now. Also, it wouldn't kill the to retool some kits (1orthinking two a year) instead of using the same mold from 20 to 50 years ago. Better quality in a basic kit equals more sales equals more profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J. Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I understand inflation and I'm not saying I should get a kit for the same 5 bucks I paid more than 20a years ago. But, that warbird didn't cost any more than any other kit at the time and the quality is better. Nor am I talking about photo etched parts and the like to recreate every little detail. My point is that there is no reason kit companies can't add a little more detail to parts already included in the box without tripling the price. They Sid it then they can do it now. Also, it wouldn't kill the to retool some kits (1orthinking two a year) instead of using the same mold from 20 to 50 years ago. Better quality in a basic kit equals more sales equals more profit. One of the major issues in the model making world is technology and it applies to the world of manufacturing in general. Wether you know it or not, making the molds for model kits has changed dramatially. Years ago a set of moldes was hand cut by a tool and die maker and the detail that was included was dependant on the skill of the person doing the work. Some were better than others, but generally speaking, there were a lot of those people around and "trade" schools produced them. That day has for the most part passed and there arn't many tool and die makers around with the old hand cutting skills. They have been replaced by CAD, CAM and electrostatic discharge cutters. Now these machines are great for making hightly repeatable mass number of molds, but buying them and the cadre of well educated specialists needed run them has pushed to cost of mold making to new highs. It use to be you could fabricate a piece and turn it over to the tool and die shop and they would wack out a die pretty quickly and inexpensively. Now you have too make a digital image of the part you want, convert it to a cutting plan and then machine it. $500,000 is a pretty common figure for a basic mold and if you add sliding molded to it, the price for the mold and the machine to operatate it go up dramatically. For the mass produced kit, these costs can really get out of hand in a hurry. I am not making excussed for poor quality kits, but model companies are facing costs and needs for skilled workers that did not exist 20 years ago. The world is changing and the good old days of wacking out a bunch of kits in a hurry are gone. Yes, we can demand better kits and should, but we also need to know what goes into those kits. Old molds are much cheaper to haul out and rerun but to "update" them cost as much as an entirely new set any more. The old tool and die makers just arn't around with the skills to do that any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooOld Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I just started a project using the 351C from the Revell '70 Mach I . Very detailed kit . Below are a couple photos of the carb in this kit . It is a two piece carb , consisting of a bottom plate with throttle shaft and arm , and a top piece with the bowl detail . It's very hard to get a decent photo of it , but it looks pretty decent . This just shows that it can be done if they wanted to ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cartpix Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 On one hand, you have modelers that would pay extra $$$ for a kit with PE parts & other detailed parts. On the other, you have modelers that don't want to pay what they charge for a kit, now. With all the detailed parts & PE emblems, etc., available from the model aftermarket, How about those that want to, buy a kit & a bunch of aftermarket parts to go with it. Then the ones that don't want to pay for the extras, can just buy the kit without having to pay the extra cost. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J. Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 On one hand, you have modelers that would pay extra $$$ for a kit with PE parts & other detailed parts. On the other, you have modelers that don't want to pay what they charge for a kit, now. With all the detailed parts & PE emblems, etc., available from the model aftermarket, How about those that want to, buy a kit & a bunch of aftermarket parts to go with it. Then the ones that don't want to pay for the extras, can just buy the kit without having to pay the extra cost. Jeff I don't think that was the point of this. As long as there are builders who want to go the extra mile, there will be an aftermarket to satisfy them. I think what most people were talking about was what comes in the basic kit. We have all held a new model and looked at some unitentifyable blob and wondered why the manufacture couldn't have spend a little more time an made it a little more refined. Yes, there are full Monte kits out there with hundreds of parts and all the other goodies built in, but as many of us know, if you strart with a blob, it takes some of the fun out of the build, remaking it to look like what it is suppose to be. On top of that, some things just can't be corrected by any but the most skilled modelers, i.e. tires. If we don't let the manufactures know this, they will never fix it. Post on my friends. They may get the message yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxer Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 One of the major issues in the model making world is technology and it applies to the world of manufacturing in general. Wether you know it or not, making the molds for model kits has changed dramatially. Years ago a set of moldes was hand cut by a tool and die maker and the detail that was included was dependant on the skill of the person doing the work. Some were better than others, but generally speaking, there were a lot of those people around and "trade" schools produced them. That day has for the most part passed and there arn't many tool and die makers around with the old hand cutting skills. They have been replaced by CAD, CAM and electrostatic discharge cutters. Now these machines are great for making hightly repeatable mass number of molds, but buying them and the cadre of well educated specialists needed run them has pushed to cost of mold making to new highs. It use to be you could fabricate a piece and turn it over to the tool and die shop and they would wack out a die pretty quickly and inexpensively. Now you have too make a digital image of the part you want, convert it to a cutting plan and then machine it. $500,000 is a pretty common figure for a basic mold and if you add sliding molded to it, the price for the mold and the machine to operatate it go up dramatically. For the mass produced kit, these costs can really get out of hand in a hurry. I am not making excussed for poor quality kits, but model companies are facing costs and needs for skilled workers that did not exist 20 years ago. The world is changing and the good old days of wacking out a bunch of kits in a hurry are gone. Yes, we can demand better kits and should, but we also need to know what goes into those kits. Old molds are much cheaper to haul out and rerun but to "update" them cost as much as an entirely new set any more. The old tool and die makers just arn't around with the skills to do that any more. Mold making has never been cheap and has always been the expensive part of creating a model kit. If anything, CAD/CAM has made it less expensive, but I doubt even that as CAD has not changed the cost to make engineering drawings, which I was responsible for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxer Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 I just started a project using the 351C from the Revell '70 Mach I . Very detailed kit . Below are a couple photos of the carb in this kit . It is a two piece carb , consisting of a bottom plate with throttle shaft and arm , and a top piece with the bowl detail . It's very hard to get a decent photo of it , but it looks pretty decent . This just shows that it can be done if they wanted to ! Those ARE nice looking carbs! Will have to remember that source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Brian Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 And those carbs are almost twenty years old, they come in a lot of Revell kits in both a two piece and one piece variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Mold making has never been cheap and has always been the expensive part of creating a model kit. If anything, CAD/CAM has made it less expensive, but I doubt even that as CAD has not changed the cost to make engineering drawings, which I was responsible for. This is a little off topic, CAD just makes drawing easier for the people running the software at the computer ,it does not make better drawings that is still a skill by the engineer . The machines today are better the tooling is better than ever ( if you are willing to pay) . That being said does not make the mold cheaper because the cost of the machines and the cost of the software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Back to the actual subject of the thread, I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen an open element air cleaner with at least the semblance of the undertray molded on it. You know, the piece that actually fits over the carb and supports the filter element? I guess the open element air cleaners are made by the same guys who provide the bracketless Magic-Lift alternators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxer Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) Sorry about bringing this thread back from the dead, but it's NOT the end of it all. Chief Joseph of Fireball Models has stepped up and is delivering some Rochester Quadrajet carbs that but just about everything made to date to shame! This NEEDED to be added to this thread. I purchased these for a build and was simply floored at the detail! Let the photos speak ... and remember, these are 1/24! Edited November 15, 2014 by Foxer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobraman Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Now that is a good looking carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrObsessive Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Mike those look fantastic! Too bad he didn't do these for mid '60's Ford products, as it would have saved me a ton of work on detailing the carburetor on my Mustang. Thanks for the link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philo426 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Most impressive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Wow. That took some intense pattern-making...and very good eyes and fine muscle control ! Impressive, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slusher Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Those are great Mike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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