What's the deal with Johan

[1972coronet]

For starters , I think it'd be great if one or more of the top casters could collect the top Jo-Han AMC kits -in virgin form- and produce some fresh moulds .

[Jantrix]

I've been looking for a decent chassis for the '63 Olds Starfire, for years. I'm likely to just build it as a resto-mod and use any full size GM chassis.

[sfhess]

I've been looking for a decent chassis for the '63 Olds Starfire, for years. I'm likely to just build it as a resto-mod and use any full size GM chassis.

What about the AMT 62 Catalina?

[Jantrix]

What about the AMT 62 Catalina?

Last time I kicked this problem around on the forums, folks with miles more automotive know-how than me decided that there wasn't an accurate chassis to be had due to the type of suspension that was used. I do not remember the details, but I'll try to find the thread.

EDIT: here it is - http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47404&hl=%2Bjohan+%2Bstarfire

Edited October 18, 2013 by Jantrix

[Tom Geiger]

I don't think anyone can dispute that old Johan kits are cool and the bodies were very accurate since most of them started out from car manufacturer prints and were supplied to them as promotional models.

A few things... there has been mention in the past of mixed year trim on I believe some of the Ramblers. And a few of the cars that made it into the Oldies series had mismatched interiors etc. Even the last Johan, the 1959 wagon Okie released, had a later date interior.

Over the years there have been jokes, one about Johan drivers having very short legs referring to the interior depth, and my favorite was Johan Motor Oil that won't leak out the axle hole in the engine block. Some of the chassis used were nothing more than a promo type plate.

As said, the AMT '68-69 Mopar chassis is a good change out. I also like the Lindberg 1964 Dodge / Plymouth chassis and interior that should slide right under some of the Mopars of that era. In fact the Lindberg '64 Dodge is a 2 door sedan while the Johan one was a hardtop, so we even got different versions out of it.

As said, the Ramblers were all unibody so also look at Mopar chassis. I haven't researched that part yet. And don't overlook Johan promos of 1960s Ramblers! There's a whole series of Ramblers and even 4 door sedans and wagons up to 1966. You can find damaged ones on eBay for reasonable prices that would make a good start at a detailed model build. I believe 1963 and above are regular kit plastic and don't warp.

Both of these were sold as kits way back when but also were sold as promos. The '62 Rambler is plentiful as the taxi snap kit.

An example of the broken promos out there. I think we can all fix a few posts on this $10 purchase. I also have wagons from '63 to '66 and sedans through '66 as well.

[KingSix]

I'd be a buyer if you cast 71-74 Javelins, Rebels, Gremlins Hornets .. Jo-Han had some really great AMC subjects .. on a side note, I am seriously considering the purchase of a 3-D printer for my "real" job of restoring classic cars. Some of the small interior pieces are just not re-popped and the time I spend tracking down a small piece that most likely will need restoration ( which involves more time ) makes it kind of a no brainer. The only thing that holds me back is the speed at which this technology is moving. If I spend $ 2500-3000 on one right now, in 3 mos. it'll most likely be obsolete ..

Edited October 19, 2013 by KingSix

[dimaxion]

The front Suspensions were "Trunion" type . Lower A Frame , upper A frame connected by the Spindle . Above the upper control arm is the Trunion . It attches to the spindles and rotates with the spindles . The upper end was attached to the Body as is a Strut . The Shock location I don't remember . I remember replacing front shocks on these . I remember these Trunions were not too difficult to replace and rendered the Car Immobile when these failed . The ride gave pleanty of warning of Impending failure . A Marlin kit closely duplicated this . The floorboards were more "wrinkled" , or Embossed than MoPar Unibodies . A more ridgid Platform , moreso than the other makers . Obviously more experianced at this process . Since 1940 MY , the Airflite Model .

The AMC had "Lift Pad" ('s) stamped on these portions of the UniBody for Chassis Service Lift and racks . The underhoods I would appreciate greatly . The short legged only passenger look I would like to eliminate . I would not appreciate so much the underhood and lack of Horns and as a plus : Inside Rear View Mirrors . I am in for any AMC Cars in any shape : as long as it is Plastic and 1/25 Scale . I am a snob due to Display / Storage Area I have to work with . I don't like Die Cast . Did you ever Paint one ?

[69NovaYenko]

Missing Link cast the 1971 AMC Hornet SC/360 at one time. I was very nice work; even included chromed bumpers and rally stock wheels with SC/360 decals. Not sure if the still have it though.

Edited October 20, 2013 by 69NovaYenko

[Tom Geiger]

An evil thought... would the AMX and Javelin be future subjects for Moebius? Cars with a good race history that could be issued in multiple versions... that may solve the whole thing!

[69NovaYenko]

An evil thought... would the AMX and Javelin be future subjects for Moebius? Cars with a good race history that could be issued in multiple versions... that may solve the whole thing!

Now that`s a thought..they both have a Trans-Am Racing history...hummmm...

[charlie8575]

An evil thought... would the AMX and Javelin be future subjects for Moebius? Cars with a good race history that could be issued in multiple versions... that may solve the whole thing!

Hmmm....now there's an idea.

I have a glue-bombish (original builder did a really nice job on the interior, so I may leave that alone) AMX, but a new one with new tooling has a lot of appeal.

Charlie Larkin

[KingSix]

Missing Link cast the 1971 AMC Hornet SC/360 at one time. I was very nice work; even included chromed bumpers and rally stock wheels with SC/360 decals. Not sure if the still have it though.

yup, they do http://www.missinglinkrc.com/71-Hornet_2012.htm now , someone needs to get on the 71 AMX

Edited October 22, 2013 by KingSix

[jeffs396]

An evil thought... would the AMX and Javelin be future subjects for Moebius? Cars with a good race history that could be issued in multiple versions... that may solve the whole thing!

Nice thought Tom, but I think there are too many originals still out there, and not enough demand for a new-tool kit unfortunately

I'd be at the front of the line to get a new kit though

[amc36077]

i agree johan's bodies are some of the best bodies ever done by a model company i have all the johan amc javelin/amx's 1971-74 the bodies are awesome the chassis stink i also have amts amc javelin kits which i think are just re-boxed johan kits anyway, i also have the marlin and the 1969 amx and the 1970 rebel machine, the machine chassis is really bad its just the marlin chassis. i wish some company would do a machine kit or any amc besides the pacer gawd what a junk kit i think theres a market for amc kits instead we get the same kits over and over again just different box art.i think a new 1970 rebel machine kit would sell alot same as any 1968-74 javelin or amx would.

[69NovaYenko]

Demand for conversion/upgrade/detail parts for a particular kit tends to drop sharply when the base kit (the one used with the parts) is no longer in production. That was my experience, anyway...

A resurrection of Jo-Hans American Motors cars i.e. 68-74 Javelin, 68-70 AMX, 70 Rebel “The Machine”and 69 Rambler “Hurst SC/Scrambler” by someone like Moebius would spur a significant up-tick in demand for conversion/upgrade/detail parts.

Nice thought Tom, but I think there are too many originals still out there, and not enough demand for a new-tool kit unfortunately

I'd be at the front of the line to get a new kit though

IMHO there aren't as many "originals" out as your statement would have us believe. Just, look on the auction boards and see how seldom a Jo-Han AMC kit appears i.e. 68-74 Javelin`s. And, when they do appear on auction my word...look at the the asking and most importantly selling price...ch-chin $...ch-chin $ my friend.

Limited supply and high demand is the root cause of that my friend; at least that's what my business professor taught us.

For what it`s worth that's my two cents no the matter.

[69NovaYenko]

Demand for conversion/upgrade/detail parts for a particular kit tends to drop sharply when the base kit (the one used with the parts) is no longer in production. That was my experience, anyway...

If a manufacturer like Moebius resurrected several of the Jo-han AMC cars that would spur an up-tick in upgrade and detail parts.

Nice thought Tom, but I think there are too many originals still out there, and not enough demand for a new-tool kit unfortunately

I'd be at the front of the line to get a new kit though

IMHO there aren't as many Jo-Han AMC kits out there as your statement would lead one to believe. Just look at the auction boards and notice how seldom a 68-74 Javelin, 68-70 AMX, 70 Rebel “The Machine” or 69 Rambler “Hurst SC/Scrambler” appears. And, when one does have you noticed the asking or better still the actual selling price...Ch-chin $, Ch-chin $ my friend.

This is caused by limited supply v.s. high demand...at least that's what my business professor taught us. And, that's my two cents on the matter for whatever it's worth.

Edited October 22, 2013 by 69NovaYenko

[dimaxion]

My 2 Cents again with the AMC stuff . Available in the first place ;

1) '68 Javelin . No . '68 AMX . No .

2) '69 Javelin . Yes , JoHan kit in AMT Box per agreement . '69 AMX . Yes with the proper low seats only in 1969 , JoHan Kit . The re-pops by Seville , '69's with '70 Interior . Hi Back Bucket Seats only .

3) '70 Javelin . Yes . JoHan kit . '70 AMX . Yes . JoHan Kit . *

4) '71 Javelin . No . '71 Javelin AMX . JoHan . Re-poped Seville in all 4 years , in secrete code . I bought 5 to get the three different identifications . That is if you are not pickey about the "Bumper Gaurds" .

5) '72 Javelin . No . '72 Javelin AMX . No . Same as above .

6) '73 Javelin . No . '73 Javelin AMX . Yes . Same as above .

7) '74 Javelin . No . '73 Javelin AMX . Yes . Same as above .

Raul did the '68 and '69 Javelins with the proper hoods , grilles . The '68 AMX could be done with research and sourcing the Grilles from Modelhaus , including the seperate inserts as the Taillight Lenses . The '68 and '69 AMX's could be done by removing the High Back Bucket Seats . Research needed here too .

* '70 Javelins in Resin were made by :

Missing Link , Kevin has this one in the process again for casting . Jimmy Flintstone did a Mark Donuhue , Trans Am style kit . Matt Conde did (or least he said so > I thusley paid for / never got) a kit . '70 AMX , Missing Link , Kevin did one .

If anyone would like to add th these , please do so . I won't make comments about the Engines and how these are visually different . Just think SBC .. lol ..

Yes , I am a hard core AMC Collector / Builder .

[Mark]

My 2 Cents again with the AMC stuff . Available in the first place ;

1) '68 Javelin . No . '68 AMX . No .

2) '69 Javelin . Yes , JoHan kit in AMT Box per agreement . '69 AMX . Yes with the proper low seats only in 1969 , JoHan Kit . The re-pops by Seville , '69's with '70 Interior . Hi Back Bucket Seats only .

3) '70 Javelin . Yes . JoHan kit . '70 AMX . Yes . JoHan Kit . *

4) '71 Javelin . No . '71 Javelin AMX . JoHan . Re-poped Seville in all 4 years , in secrete code . I bought 5 to get the three different identifications . That is if you are not pickey about the "Bumper Gaurds" .

5) '72 Javelin . No . '72 Javelin AMX . No . Same as above .

6) '73 Javelin . No . '73 Javelin AMX . Yes . Same as above .

7) '74 Javelin . No . '73 Javelin AMX . Yes . Same as above .

Raul did the '68 and '69 Javelins with the proper hoods , grilles . The '68 AMX could be done with research and sourcing the Grilles from Modelhaus , including the seperate inserts as the Taillight Lenses . The '68 and '69 AMX's could be done by removing the High Back Bucket Seats . Research needed here too .

* '70 Javelins in Resin were made by :

Missing Link , Kevin has this one in the process again for casting . Jimmy Flintstone did a Mark Donuhue , Trans Am style kit . Matt Conde did (or least he said so > I thusley paid for / never got) a kit . '70 AMX , Missing Link , Kevin did one .

If anyone would like to add th these , please do so . I won't make comments about the Engines and how these are visually different . Just think SBC .. lol ..

Yes , I am a hard core AMC Collector / Builder .

A few additions/corrections:

Jo-Han did make a '68 Javelin, as a kit, promo, and toy store friction. AMT sold the Jo-Han 1968 AMX kit in AMT packaging.

The 1969 Javelin kit was sold by Jo-Han, in their box. AMT again sold the AMX, in two different boxes with different stock numbers.

Jo-Han offered two 1970 Javelin kits: stock annual and Donohue Trans-Am racing version. The annual had four versions: stock, custom, oval track racer, and funny car (that narrow box was packed!). AMT sold the 1970 AMX kit, again in two boxes with different stock numbers. Jo-Han did not offer a two-seater AMX kit until 1971 (the first issue Shirley Shahan drag car, which differs in a number of ways from the reissued version). They never offered a 100% stock one (the USA Oldies kits all had Hurst mag wheels, and we won't mention the 1966 engine).

Jo-Han did Javelin/AMX annual kits for every year, 1971-1974. The 1971 annual has its own box, the others all came in the same 1972 style box. AMT offered the '74 in an AMT box also, for the 1974 catalog year only. There were also 1971 and 1972 funny car only kits (each had its own box), which include only the funny car version and have bodies with hoods molded shut. These are rare now, because they didn't sell well when new (nobody ran that body in 1:1, and the chassis was obsolete). There was also a 1971 Donohue Trans-Am kit (sold by AMT), and a Jo-Han George Follmer Trans-Am kit, the contents of which varied over the years. These, and the snap-together 1974 offered by Jo-Han, pretty much cover everything made by Jo-Han relating to these cars.

[Edsel-Dan]

I have 3 of the AMT boxed Donahue kit. Two of them were Coca-Cola Mail in premiums!!

You could also call it a Nascar as Penski & Donahue did enter it in a few nacar races that year!!

The next year they changed to the Matador, then Mark died in Practice for the F-1 race.

I have the Original Aurora AFX of the "Square Body" Matador. And yes, I got it in Red-white-Blue!!!

[dimaxion]

Thank you Mark and Dan :

I am glad for the responses . In the '80's I bought 5 Javelin AMX kits with three different numbers on them . I was able to break the Code by this course of action . I had originally planned to do all 4 years of both Javelin and Javelin AMX . All five were in Identical boxes . Yellowish Stock Version (1:1) car on one side . The other side has pictures of the Police Pursuit '67 Plymouth , the Heavenly Hearse and the Fire Rescue Ambulance Box Arts . Listings of

Challenger , Javelin AMX Pro Stock , Barracuda Pro Stock , maverick pro Stock , Pinot Funny Car on the left side . Mustang Funny Car , Toronado , Hornet Funny Car , Eldorodo , Cutlass Funny Car , Torino NASCAR Racer on the right side . Other Jo-Han Kits in the middle . A Yellow AMX Javelin Drag racer on the top , with "You've been Zapped" across the Trunk Lid Spoiler . There was a spot blurred out . I think is where Seville censored out Jo-Han Models . I had to landfill most of my boxes . I still have these 4 . One has a '72 RBT. Two have the '73?/'74 RBT . The '71 is White Plastic . It is sans the Sterring wheel , gutted interior , racing Steering Wheel , Roll cage , Minilite Wheels , T-Top roof , The ;72 is red plastic , Magnum 500 Wheels . The '73/'74 Kits have differences . one I'll call the '73 has white plastic , Magnum 500's . The '74 has an off biege plastic with .. Minilights . These are my WIPs Javelins . All 6 Javelin AMX's came in the same Boxes . The '71 with T-Roof and the '72 sans T-roof . I did downsize and landfilled a large percentage of my MT boxes + bagged most kits unbuilt . Those built ups Boxes are gonzo . All 4 I still have have GC-1600 . This leads me to believe all are Seville re-pops . Sevliie just made kits with no understanding what was what as a Start up business .

I appreciate the further information . I am greatful for the corrdctions . I fear I may have muddied up the waters .

Would I buy more AMC's .. yes .. Would a Camaro Fan Buy multi releases of the same Camaros ? Thanx ..

[JS23U]

A 72 kit should be white and should have t-roof along with metal axles. Some Javelin/AMX kits came with the 73/74 body (no t-roof) but the 72 rear bumper/grille chrome part. This leaves a gap around the rear grille. Another hint for this is the red plastic. Maybe your "72" is one of these?

Johan didn't bother to change the box after the 72 model year. The 73 and 74 issues came in the same box. Just as the 74 to 76 Johan Eldorado kits all came in the 74 box.

Your 71 sounds like being the Donohue kit.

[Art Anderson]

I think part of the appeal of Johan kits lies in their "independent" status, at least compared to AMT/Ertl, Revell and Monogram during the '80s. Johan made their kits in Detroit, in a small buidling, with outdated equipment, and I think a lot of people wanted to see them succeed just based on their underdog status.

The history of Johan is similar to that of AMC, the last of the independent automakers, in that they were always the little kid on the block, trying to make due with outdated equipment and older products, and never being able to come up with enough money to invest back into the company. It seems they were always playing catch-up, but were never quite able to do that.

In truth, JoHan was very much into current, contemporary product, just as was AMT, back in the heyday of promotional model cars for the automakers, and just a year after AMT they issued their own line of "3in1" Annual Series kits (AMT started their's in 1958, JoHan following in 1959). Where AMT had the strength to land promo model contracts from the biggest marques such as Ford, Chevrolet, Pontiac etc., JoHan instead worked not only with American Motors, but Chrysler Corporation (with the exception of Imperial), Studebaker (while AMT Corporation did Studebaker promo's through 1956, JoHan did the Lark 1960-62), Oldsmobile (then truly "Your Father's Oldsmobile") and from 1957 all the way to the end of promotional models--Cadillac.

In 1964-1966 JoHan, swept up with the then-perceived craze for models of antique and Classic cars, introduced virtually alongside Monogram and the fairly new-on-the-scene MPC, their 3 1931 Cadillac V16's, the Mercedes-Benz 500K roadster and Coupe Limousine. Those 5 cars gave no quarter to the offerings from Monogram or MPC. In addition, JoHan truly "moved the goalposts" downfield with their Gold Cup Chrysler Turbine Car, which set a pretty high standard for high detail and working features that in many ways still stand the test today.

My perceptions of JoHan back in the 60's (when I was both a model car builder and an employee of a very large local hobby shop here) were that while their kits were always very nicely done--the subject matter left a lot to be desired at the time. The car scene in the 60's was dominated by GM, with Ford nipping closely at the General's heels, and Chrysler (particularly Plymouth and Dodge) not all that far behind. However, modelers (our customers) tended to walk right on by JoHan's Plymouth and Dodge kits--based I think on their perception that they were just as "ho-hum" as JoHan's offerings of Ramblers and Oldsmobiles--those subjects tended to scrape the bottom of the barrel popularity-wise--kids just didn't much care for them. Every summer, Lafayette's downtown held a 3-day sidewalk sale, and we were no exception to that--we'd have 3-4 8' tables on the sidewalk out front, stacked high with closeout stuff--and it was pretty hard to get rid of unsold JoHan stuff even at 1/2 off. It's the modern-day popularity of those AMC, Oldsmobile, Studebaker and Chrysler "grocery getter" cars that colors a lot of thinking nowadays as to how popular those kits were back in the day--simply put: On the scale of things model, they weren't nearly as sought-after back 40-50 years ago as they became once the "USA Oldies" kits started trickling out circa 1980.

Art

[KingSix]

I have 3 of the AMT boxed Donahue kit. Two of them were Coca-Cola Mail in premiums!!

You could also call it a Nascar as Penski & Donahue did enter it in a few nacar races that year!!

The next year they changed to the Matador, then Mark died in Practice for the F-1 race.

I have the Original Aurora AFX of the "Square Body" Matador. And yes, I got it in Red-white-Blue!!!

There is no such thing as a "NASCAR" , they're either Grand National, Busch, Winston Cup ( or "Cup" ) Nationwide or Sprint Cup cars..NASCAR is an acronym, not a type of car ...

[gtx6970]

.

However, modelers (our customers) tended to walk right on by JoHan's Plymouth and Dodge kits--based I think on their perception that they were just as "ho-hum" as JoHan's offerings of Ramblers and Oldsmobiles--those subjects tended to scrape the bottom of the barrel popularity-wise--kids just didn't much care for them. Every summer, Lafayette's downtown held a 3-day sidewalk sale, and we were no exception to that--we'd have 3-4 8' tables on the sidewalk out front, stacked high with closeout stuff--and it was pretty hard to get rid of unsold JoHan stuff even at 1/2 off. It's the modern-day popularity of those AMC, Oldsmobile, Studebaker and Chrysler "grocery getter" cars that colors a lot of thinking nowadays as to how popular those kits were back in the day--simply put: On the scale of things model, they weren't nearly as sought-after back 40-50 years ago as they became once the "USA Oldies" kits started trickling out circa 1980.

Art

I'll agree to that. I use to walk in our local toy store ( Johnnys Toys in Latonia Ky ) probably late 70's to early 80's time frame

And there would be dozens of Johan kits that would just sit and sit .

One time I walked in and they had them marked down to half price . I bought several 1969 Roadrunners and 1971 Sox+Martin Cudas for less than $5 each ( still have them all btw )

If it wasn't a mustang, camaro or chevelle kit it seems everything else was left to collect dust

[sjordan2]

My experience in the old days was that JoHan interior tubs were poorly detailed and unrealistically shallow, unlike AMT and Revell. Did anyone else see this?