Question for contest judges regarding non-scratchbuilt modifications

81 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

The 3d printing thread took an interesting turn when it was opined that contest judges should take into account if a certain build has 3d printed parts and make deductions from said model if another build is of equal quality and impact but scrtach built. My question is, is it standard judging practice to favor scratchbuilding over purchased aftermarket parts? If three models are of equal quality and one has scratch built parts, one has aftermarket resin parts, and one is 3d printed does the scratchbuilt car win simply because it was scratchbuilt? What if the 3d printed model was designed by the builder who is showing it, is their creativity worth less than the builder who did the work by hand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

There's no single answer to that, only opinions as to how it "should" be.

Every contest is different. Different rules, different judges. No way you can have a "one size fits all" answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Just build to have fun. Dont worry about winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Just build to have fun. Dont worry about winning.

Now there's a man who I agree with. B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I'm not worried about winning, trying to build for shows ruins the fun for me, I just wanted to know what the general rule is. I can inderstand not valuing a purchased resin kit as much as a scratch build but designing the kit in 3d still takes a good deal of skill and it's a shame that it may not be valued appropriately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

There is no "general" rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I think it's too soon to ask that question as contest judges probably haven't run up against that problem yet. My gut feeling is that the physically scratch built part would take precedence unless the builder could prove he actually designed the parts that were 3d printed....... I dunno really..... :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

To myself and my club, when we're judging our show it depends more on how the final product than what went into it. Contestant A built a stock kit and made it beautiful while Contestant B used resin parts, photo-etch, 3D printed parts, etc etc but the final product looks crappy. It doesn't matter that Contestant B spent all the extra time and money to utilize all those extra bits if the end results is poor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Regardless of the originality of the part , it's all going to come down to the execution on the build . My guess would be that the 3D part would carry more weight at an IPMS show as long as it was properly documented .

As Harry stated , it's going to vary , contest to contest .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

A printed part should be no different then a resin part.

A judge should be able to tell a cobbled pile of aftermarket parts, vs a well thought out and executed build that may include scratch built parts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

There's no single answer to that, only opinions as to how it "should" be.

Every contest is different. Different rules, different judges. No way you can have a "one size fits all" answer.

Amen.

B)

There is no "general" rule.

True dat.

B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Regardless of the originality of the part , it's all going to come down to the execution on the build .

As Harry stated , it's going to vary , contest to contest .

First part ~ Amen! B)

Second part ~ true. B)

IPMS? Who cares? Unless you have the correct number of 3D printed rivets. ;):P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

That's even better! What he said! ^

Exactly ! But as anyone that competes in shows will testify to ........ should and will are often on different planets ! Lol !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

If three models are of equal quality and one has scratch built parts, one has aftermarket resin parts, and one is 3d printed does the scratchbuilt car win simply because it was scratchbuilt? What if the 3d printed model was designed by the builder who is showing it, is their creativity worth less than the builder who did the work by hand?

Any judged event is subjective, whether it's dogs, cars, models, quilts or ??? Make all the rules you want, but a human element influences a judge's ruling regardless of how impartial he tries to be and all things being equal, I think a judge is more likely to respect the most human effort if it's identical to a mechanical effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I agree with Don Yost. End result is all that the judge should 'judge'. Period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Just build to have fun. Dont worry about winning.

this is true if you build something and put it on your shelf. There are tons of people who build for shows and are out to win and that is the fun of it for them. i felt the same way about photo etched parts and resin stuff for a while. i felt that there should be a class for plastic only. anything goes, just has to be styrene. scratch building and modifications to these pieces allowed. just no "aftermarket" pieces. kind of a modified box stock, if you know what i mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

To myself and my club, when we're judging our show it depends more on how the final product than what went into it. Contestant A built a stock kit and made it beautiful while Contestant B used resin parts, photo-etch, 3D printed parts, etc etc but the final product looks crappy. It doesn't matter that Contestant B spent all the extra time and money to utilize all those extra bits if the end results is poor.

Agree totally. I entered a contest back in '09 with a build I had done in '00. When I set mine down on the table, I figured at best that I would possibly get a third place and probably not even place. There were a couple of models that were detailed to the hilt and had opening doors and tons of aftermarket parts,photo etch etc. The only problem I really saw on them were the paint jobs. They both had quite a bit of orange peel and a couple of glue and paint mishaps,but nothing too bad really My model is pretty highly detailed,but not much aftermarket stuff and no photo etch at all. I did open the trunk up,but left the doors closed. The paint on mine is slick as glass,but not what I would call perfect. When my name wasn't called for third place, I knew that I hadn't even placed. But, to my surprise, it got called for first place! The two that I thought would get first and second, didn't place at all. :o That was the only time I ever won a contest that I honestly didn't feel like I deserved it. I guess when it all boiled down, it came to the quality of the paint and not the amount of detail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I guess when it all boiled down, it came to the quality of the paint and not the amount of detail.

Really, what it all boils down to is the quality of the judging. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Then we can add purchased, aftermarket 3-D printed parts at some point. Just because something has been produced on a 3-D printer doesn't mean it will be of good quality or fidelity. Parts is parts and they can be garbage or good. There are variables; it boils down to the overall quality and execution of the build and incorporation of parts, no matter what the origin of any parts might be. I am a contest judge; I have seen too many builds with PE items added like sprinkles on a cupcake.

Edited by johnbuzzed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

My opinion, for the little that it is worth is this. The balance should be tipped for the person who made their own parts reguardless of the methods used. My point here is that the type of construction is not relevant. Case in point is turned aluminum parts. They have been around for years and the person who buyes his parts verse the person who owns a lathe and turns his own is significant. Same applies to 3D printed parts. If you make them youself there is a differant skill level involved than the person who buys them off the shelf.

By the way, we already have 3D printed parts on the shelf for models. Well, kind of. Icon Models http://www.iconautomotiveminiatures.com/ started making rain tires for Formula 1 cars. Although the product that you get is cast resin he did the art work on CAD and sent it to an contract protype maker for the 3D printing for the masters. This is becoming much more common so you really have the final product coming from a 3D printer.

So, at a contest, two identical models both built to the same standard(hypothecial possiblity, real life unlikely) the modeler who does all his own work(scratch builder), gets an advantage over the builder who buys his stuff from a third party.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

So, at a contest, two identical models both built to the same standard(hypothecial possiblity, real life unlikely) the modeler who does all his own work(scratch builder), gets an advantage over the builder who buys his stuff from a third party.

Why?

Why should builder A have an edge over builder B from the judges because builder A did more scratchbuilding? Shouldn't the finished product (the model) be the thing that's being judged... not the relative talent levels of builder A vs. builder B?

To make an analogy... if you were judging an apple pie contest at the county fair, wouldn't you judge the winner based solely on the taste, texture, appearance, etc. of the finished pie? The fact that baker A churned her own butter or grew her own apples and baker B bought her butter and apples at the store shouldn't be a factor. The only thing that should be judged is the end result.

Or am I off base?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

To elaborate...

Let's say you're the judge. In your opinion, baker A's pie tastes no better or worse than baker B's pie.

Are you saying that you'd judge baker A's pie differently? You'd give some sort of edge or "extra credit" to baker A because she went to more trouble in the process than baker B did... even though baker B's pie turned out just as well?

Isn't that unfair to baker B?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

My opinion, for the little that it is worth is this. The balance should be tipped for the person who made their own parts reguardless of the methods used. My point here is that the type of construction is not relevant. Case in point is turned aluminum parts. They have been around for years and the person who buyes his parts verse the person who owns a lathe and turns his own is significant. Same applies to 3D printed parts. If you make them youself there is a differant skill level involved than the person who buys them off the shelf.

But, what if the bought parts look much better than the scratchbuilt parts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

HARRY HAS IT RIGHT! EXAMPLE-DOES THIS 1963 ZIP-O-MOBILE LOOK AND FEEL LIKE THE REAL THING ,? YOU JUDGE THE MODEL CAR ,NOT ON HOW THE BUILDER GOT THERE,BUT HOW HE USED THOSE PARTS TO REALISTICALLY REPRESENT THE REAL THING IN SCALE, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

But (using Harry's analogy) what if Baker A made her pie from apples she grew and harvested and Baker B used processed apples? Hmmm? Both taste exactly the same.

Just because one person had to put more effort in to be equal does not mean they automatically should have the scales tipped in their favor does it?

Another perspective is the one who was able to get the same quality results with less work might be a better craftsman therefore shouldn't they get the benefit?

That is where blind anonymous judging to award the best piece is the fairest, assuming it is a contest for that. Once you start factoring in who did what under what circumstances (handicaps or special skill sets) it ceases to be a contest of the best built model and becomes something more convoluted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now