Nate Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) It all has to do with execution. If someone loads a model up with aftermarket and scratch-built parts, but it looks like garbage and another person builds a superb box-stock model, I would give higher points to the box-stock. It's ALL execution. Edited October 16, 2012 by Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 It's not putting in more effort to be equal, it's putting in the effort to be better. That's the point. You put in the effort (scratchbuilding, PE parts, whatever) in order to get the best final result. And that--the final result--is what should be judged, not the process that it took to get there. Is the model a realistic representation of the real thing? Or if a custom or phantom, is it built cleanly? Is the paint well done? Does the model sit on all four tires? Are there any obviously wrong or out of scale items? Are there glue smears or misaligned parts? Are panel gaps consistent and in scale? All of those things are fair to judge, but whether the builder used a scratchbuilt or an aftermarket seatbelt harness is immaterial. What counts is what the end result looks like, not how the builder got to the end result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Holding Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Fit and Finish....say that 3 times quickly.... Edited October 16, 2012 by G Holding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Fit and Finish....say that 3 times quickly.... fittenfinish,fitfish,gefiltefish. Whew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 "Scratchbuilt" and/or "fabricated" does not guarantee quality; nor does "aftermarket". It's all in the fidelity (and yes, the fit and finish) of the final product. This is a topic that could be debated for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Sumner Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I wonder how many of you fellas who have been voicing opinions on this have been consistently judging contests? Myself, I've been judging at IPMS and non-IPMS contests for 20 years...since around 1991 or 92. And I will tell you from my experience that it matters not one bit where a part came from, whether it is plastic, resin, photoetch or 3D... What matters is the final quality of the build...period. A modeler can spend all kinds of money on resin parts etc...but if they aren't installed properly...meaning no glue marks, fingerprints, misalignment etc etc..it doesn't matter a bit as that model won't win. Likewise for paint. If a car model has noticeable orange peel in the paint, no matter how many dollars the guy has put into aftermarket parts, 3D or resin, it's dead in the water at the get-go! Or if there are decals on the car and they are all silvered underneath, that model is a goner too. Lot's of car modelers aren't all that familiar with the proper techniques for laying down decals so they look painted on. Some guys will stick decals right on top of a flat black hood and wonder why they don't win when the decals are silvered like crazy. And 3D parts aren't any kind of guarantee that they are good. The inherent process of making a 3D part means the part is built up in layers. From what I've seen these 3D parts need some finishing work done to them to make them acceptable in surface finish. I kind of get a kick out of guys who espouse the old..."Don't build for contests, build for yourself." Well for me, building for contests IS building for myself. Contests are the single best way to hone your skills to build much better models. If it weren't for all the contests, the art of model building today would be no where near as advanced as it is presently. And having the opportunity to talk with a judge about what they observed right or wrong on your model is the best way to learn how to improve. If you want to be a hermit and just build models without any interaction with other like minded individuals, that's fine. But to me that's a cancerous opinion and I wish you guys wouldn't tell other modelers to do that. You do them no favors by trying to get others to shy away from competition. That's just my opinion...others of course will vary.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas SCR Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Over all look of the car should win no matter what aftermarket or 3d deal you doing. You stil have to paint it finish it and put it on the car and make it look right as a builder. Now for paint with all of todays stuff that is out there to work with there should never be orange peal and flat out no use of clear coat. Them two things should never happen and it still goes on so much to the point that the builder needs to step up and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I am a contest judge. I enjoy building for and competing in contests. I also like to build for my shelves; those models do not have to be of contest-quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantrix Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sorry guys. The amount of effort that went into a model should NEVER be a consideration in a model contest (or any contest for that matter) ONLY the quality of the finished product. Period. It doesn't matter if the parts were milled, cast, printed or created by fairies in the magical land of Honalee. Only the execution of those parts as part of a model matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter31a Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sticking another 2 cents into this discussion. I think the amount of effort/scratchbuilding/3Dprinted parts thing would only start factoring in when the judges have narrowed the field down and are trying to decide the top three. For example let's pick custom category: You have 5 vehicles that have flawless paint, no glue smears, no fingerprints, great bare metal foil, all 4 wheels are touching the ground, etc - you can't find fault with any of the basics of model building. That's when they then have to start looking at what else has been done to the model. Is this custom basically box stock versus a one that's chopped, chanelled, fabbed parts etc. That's when level of effort comes into play. That's why when entering a contest it's important to fill out the form and point out the extra's you've done to a model. Because as much as you would like every model judge to be a walking data bank of every model kit ever produced and of every real car produced, it's just not possible. They are human and are doing the best they can to come up with fair results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 In those rare cases of all else on a build being equal, I would agree with Peter- a winner has to be chosen somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) So maybe this should transfer back up to 1:1 too. How many cars would be eligible to compete in top shows like the Riddler if there was a stipulation that all the parts had to be made old-school, on non-CNC equipment? Or how about carved from billets with nothing but chisels and files? Those of us who can actually use a milling machine or a lathe the old-school way, or even carve something with chisels and files and grinders would like to know. PS. I just took a second-place in a small contest with a heavily-modified model with a ton of scratch-built stuff including a roll-cage. Heavy mods including a 4" scale chop and paint that's close to perfect and LOTS of custom, partially-scratched stuff. The winner was a box-stock build that was very very nice, but nowhere near as time-intensive or ambitious as my entry, and certainly not showing off so many differing skills. Even the winner was surprised his entry beat mine. I was just grateful for any recognition. The moral is, contests are judged by humans, and whatever appeals to the judges most will win (unless there's a standardized grading-sheet employed religiously by ALL contest officials, with weighting for various items, demonstrated skills, etc.) Edited October 16, 2012 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf15 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 God forgive me , I have to say that I'm in complete agreement with Old Goat Sumner here ! Lol ! I accept and respect others decisions to " build" for themselves . Myself ? , I prefer going to the contests and competing . I find it to be educational , and it provides a drive to push the envelope and my skills on each amd every build . The contests also provide a chance to hang out with friends , pick up tips , and grab up the latest releases at a far better price than what you'd pay elsewhere . Without the contests , no show coverage in the magazine , without show coverage , no magazine , without magazine , no forum ! Barring a judge being biased or blind , execution of the build should always rule the day ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sorry guys. The amount of effort that went into a model should NEVER be a consideration in a model contest (or any contest for that matter) ONLY the quality of the finished product. Period. It doesn't matter if the parts were milled, cast, printed or created by fairies in the magical land of Honalee. Only the execution of those parts as part of a model matter. I agree on all points. The amount of effort that goes into a build cannot be judged and can't be grounds for reward, and I don't see anyone saying otherwise. But the the extra effort that is expended can result (though not always) in a superior piece of work. It's about going the extra mile to create a special finished product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 In those rare cases of all else on a build being equal, I would agree with Peter- a winner has to be chosen somehow. Let's say for the sake of argument that it comes down to two models. They have come out identically as far as the judging goes. Either they all have the same number of points, or whatever system is used, or they are so close that the judges simply can't see anything that would separate them. So do you then start taking effort into consideration? Do you see that one has a chopped top and the other doesn't, so the one with the chopped top gets "extra credit?" No. You call it what it is...a tie, and you award two trophies (or whatever). Of course, the chances of two models being exactly even, so close that the judges can't see anything to determine which one is the winner, are slim to none. There's always a factor... a bit of orange peel, a slightly mis-aligned decal, a tiny glue smear... something to say this one is the winner and the other one is the runner-up. But theoretically, if it's a tie... it's a tie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I agree on all points. The amount of effort that goes into a build cannot be judged and can't be grounds for reward, and I don't see anyone saying otherwise. Peter said otherwise in post 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 IBut the the extra effort that is expended can result (though not always) in a superior piece of work. It's about going the extra mile to create a special finished product. Right... extra effort may very well result in a better model, and consequently a win. But the amount of effort that went into the model should not be a factor in judging the model; only the end result, no matter how it was achieved, should count. If the model is judged good enough to win, then the builder's efforts were worth the bother. But all the effort in the world doesn't necessarily mean a win, nor should it. Let's face it... some people are just flat-out better at building models than others are. One guy can build a contest winner with one hand tied behind his back, while another guy has to struggle for months, re-do things over and over, and basically work as hard as he possibly can to get the same result. But once those two models are sitting on the contest table, the fact that one guy got there easily while the other guy struggled mightily to make something comparable should become completely irrelevant to the judges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Sumner Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 In all my years judging thousands of models whether they be airplanes, cars...whatever, I have NEVER seen one model without SOME flaw. It may have been a really tiny flaw but it was a flaw nontheless. I have however judged a few that were so doggone near perfect it was almost impossible to find that tiny flaw though. Those models I marvelled at! And by the way..none of the latter were mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I wonder how many of you fellas who have been voicing opinions on this have been consistently judging contests? Myself, I've been judging at IPMS and non-IPMS contests for 20 years...since around 1991 or 92. And I will tell you from my experience that it matters not one bit where a part came from, whether it is plastic, resin, photoetch or 3D... What matters is the final quality of the build...period. A modeler can spend all kinds of money on resin parts etc...but if they aren't installed properly...meaning no glue marks, fingerprints, misalignment etc etc..it doesn't matter a bit as that model won't win. Likewise for paint. If a car model has noticeable orange peel in the paint, no matter how many dollars the guy has put into aftermarket parts, 3D or resin, it's dead in the water at the get-go! Or if there are decals on the car and they are all silvered underneath, that model is a goner too. Lot's of car modelers aren't all that familiar with the proper techniques for laying down decals so they look painted on. Some guys will stick decals right on top of a flat black hood and wonder why they don't win when the decals are silvered like crazy. And 3D parts aren't any kind of guarantee that they are good. The inherent process of making a 3D part means the part is built up in layers. From what I've seen these 3D parts need some finishing work done to them to make them acceptable in surface finish. I kind of get a kick out of guys who espouse the old..."Don't build for contests, build for yourself." Well for me, building for contests IS building for myself. Contests are the single best way to hone your skills to build much better models. If it weren't for all the contests, the art of model building today would be no where near as advanced as it is presently. And having the opportunity to talk with a judge about what they observed right or wrong on your model is the best way to learn how to improve. If you want to be a hermit and just build models without any interaction with other like minded individuals, that's fine. But to me that's a cancerous opinion and I wish you guys wouldn't tell other modelers to do that. You do them no favors by trying to get others to shy away from competition. That's just my opinion...others of course will vary.... WOW! Terry! Well said. Comprehensive and well put! Excellent points. Far too many people just don't get that, but it's all too true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 You haven't been to very many shows/contests have you? Nope. Never. But I do have common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 My bottom line is this: It doesn't matter one whit to me just how a model was built, be it a putty custom or one having a completely scratchbuilt body, for example. Same with the engine, the other greasy bits, the interior. It is, however, the "end result" that counts. We each have our own favored techniques, be it in modifications, construction, detailing and trim, even paint work---is any one trick or process necessarily better than all the others? IMO, no. It's what the builder winds up with that matters, that is all any spectator can see, and even all that any contest judge can see. I had to wonder about the concept of "Degree of Difficulty" consideration that reared its head several years back--that becomes, to me as rather severely subjective when I think of it. Does it really matter if a builder used real silk, or silk made out of a sow's ear? Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas SCR Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Plowboy, you did not even read what I put down if you are asking me if I use clear coat! I was saying there is no reason to not having a good clear coat put on a model in todays world and you should never see orange peal at all! I'm with Art and lot of the people who do build for shows and love seeing first hand on what people come up with specialy in Customs,ie Replica (non factory stock style) Street Rods and Street machines. But it all comes down to one thing and that is the "end results". Each class will always have there spots where each person will very over some one. There is alot of people who can build 1 off style customs but when it comes down to factory specs this just not there style and for them to get the shading right on either the frame or chassis or interior it's just a little off from where it should be. Same with some people who build just factory style stuff, asking them to move in the class of full 1 off custom cars is a main challange for them. Or even going to replica 1 off style cars this is another thing that can be a main challange for some one. Either way build for what you like and how you build it, as long as your happy and always learning from some of the best people on this fourm then its working to help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinfan5 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I wonder how many of you fellas who have been voicing opinions on this have been consistently judging contests? Myself, I've been judging at IPMS and non-IPMS contests for 20 years...since around 1991 or 92. And I will tell you from my experience that it matters not one bit where a part came from, whether it is plastic, resin, photoetch or 3D... What matters is the final quality of the build...period. A modeler can spend all kinds of money on resin parts etc...but if they aren't installed properly...meaning no glue marks, fingerprints, misalignment etc etc..it doesn't matter a bit as that model won't win. Likewise for paint. If a car model has noticeable orange peel in the paint, no matter how many dollars the guy has put into aftermarket parts, 3D or resin, it's dead in the water at the get-go! Or if there are decals on the car and they are all silvered underneath, that model is a goner too. Lot's of car modelers aren't all that familiar with the proper techniques for laying down decals so they look painted on. Some guys will stick decals right on top of a flat black hood and wonder why they don't win when the decals are silvered like crazy. And 3D parts aren't any kind of guarantee that they are good. The inherent process of making a 3D part means the part is built up in layers. From what I've seen these 3D parts need some finishing work done to them to make them acceptable in surface finish. I kind of get a kick out of guys who espouse the old..."Don't build for contests, build for yourself." Well for me, building for contests IS building for myself. Contests are the single best way to hone your skills to build much better models. If it weren't for all the contests, the art of model building today would be no where near as advanced as it is presently. And having the opportunity to talk with a judge about what they observed right or wrong on your model is the best way to learn how to improve. If you want to be a hermit and just build models without any interaction with other like minded individuals, that's fine. But to me that's a cancerous opinion and I wish you guys wouldn't tell other modelers to do that. You do them no favors by trying to get others to shy away from competition. That's just my opinion...others of course will vary.... Have to agree with that As being one of the for Desert Scale this year, what we looked for, was a well built model, were mold lines removed, where trade marks on the chassis still there, glue spots, it was the overall finish and and did the builder take time the time build a clean model, it did not matter how much money was spent on after-market stuff, that did not matter to use. And I can tell you this, some very nice models that got passed up for the little things like glue spots or trade marks left on the chassis, and I mean a build that would of been considered for placing. You can throw all the money you want to at a build, but if its not a clean build and you dont remove sink marks, pin holes, trademarks and mold lines, 9 out 10 times, it wont win, and will lose out to a OOB that the builder took the time to remove above. Edited October 17, 2012 by martinfan5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Brian Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Very interesting, this is a very informative conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Harry, if you've never been to a contest, then you don't realize that contests are not set up for ties. Not all entrants can be winners. I have left contests both skunked and with several pieces of new hardware. The entrants don't want to be in a tie with someone else, the sponsor clubs don't (because most can't afford to) have multiple trophies for win, place and show and there will inevitably be hard feelings because someone in a tie situation will be going home empty-handed, with no trophy until one can be sent to him or her. Having entered and judged MANY contests since 1968, I can tell you that most modelers would not like this situation. I've judged contests in which some of the entries had components such as rear ends, wheel/tire combos or bodies that were loose- not secured to the model- and this was discovered by attempting to pick up those models for a better look. Those models were immediately out of the running, along with those with bad paint, glue blobs, etc. If one can't get the basics down, all the PE, scratchbuilt, fabricated, aftermarket, store-bought, parts-box, etc parts in the world won't help the build. That kind of situation is really tough when there are only three entries in a class and basics are lacking in all three. And, yes, there will always be something to set apart a winner from the also-rans, but sometimes, that does come down to particulars such as builder-fabricated vs. store-bought. In those cases, I would say that, all else being equal, I would go for the fabricated component because of the effort, artistry and skills the builder used to create that particular piece- no different than what should be applied to creating an entire build. A builder- fabricated component is a small model unto itself and if it is at least up to the standards of a store-bought item, that carries more weight than buying a component. I guess it would be best for me to say that, all else being equal between two builds (which would not be very often), my preference would be for the model that consisted of more scratchbuilt or builder-fabricated components than store-bought items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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