1:8 scratch deuce

403 posts in this topic

Posted (edited) · Report post

I'd like to say that I'm really glad to be here, in the company of some very talented & skilled modelers.

Also somewhat intimidated by that talent, as this my first model build since I was in my early teens.

I spent 30 yrs, before retiring, in auto metal shops & in my own home shop, repairing & fabbing panels & a couple of frames as well.

With that behind me, I want to scratch build this project in metal, since it's a material that I have experience with.

Never had a 32 & always thought they are one of the best designs ever developed, so a deuce is a logical choice for this project.

Since aluminum is plentiful & scraps of it are everywhere to be had for cheap or free vs brass being less common & somewhat pricy to buy, I'm researching methods & products for soldering/joining, to see if I can effectively take advantage of aluminums easy availability.

My plans are drawn in 1:8 from dimensions gained from Wescotts web site.

I then overlayed the drawing with tracing paper & drew it again.

32plans1_zps04f3c2ee.jpg

I took a piece of 1.5" x .062 aluminum angle that was laying around & cut it down the spine to make two flat pieces to work with.

After stacking 2 pieces of the appropriate length for the side rails & 4 for the top & bottom edges, I laid out my tracing paper drawings on the stacks, held with double sided tape & drilled & pinned, with 1/16 brass rod, to a 1/4" piece of pine to hold the stack securely for cutting & shaping.

frame4_zpsb26a8d31.jpg

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I set the bandsaw up with a 14tpi raker blade rated for wood & soft non-ferous metals & cut the shapes just outside the draw lines.

frame6_zpscbd2a028.jpg

Did the final shaping on my spindle sander with 50 grit.

Since the footprint of the stacks is slender, I used a straight, square piece of maple to hold it against to insure that I got good square sides, thus identical pieces within the stack.

frame8_zps17736f02.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Making sure to transfer axle centerlines, etc to the pieces for accurate placement when joining the frame.

frame9_zpsdb8654e1.jpg

frame10_zps6e699629.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

this is gonna be good!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

aluminum.........did some one say aluminum? oh yeah, i'll be watching this. me likee, long time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

I do so enjoy watching someone work who understands what is necessary to do a good job. Very nice start, and I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing updates on this one.

I've been involved with unusual fabrication and tooling for all my 40+ working years, and there are some difficult issues to be overcome when joining aluminum. One, of course, is aluminum alloy's high coefficient of expansion, which makes welding and soldering of thin material especially challenging due to distortion.

Aluminum oxide forming on aluminum's surface when it's heated is another contributor to difficulty of joining. Dis-similar aluminum alloys sourced as scrap will also resist heat-process joining. There are various flux and non-flux using solders for aluminum alloys, but I don't have enough experience with any of them to recommend any. Of course if you're an experienced TIG welder and have the equipment, you may already have everything that you require. Some of the early, low-alloy aluminum can be welded using an oxy-hydrogen flame, similar to the oxy-acetylene process for steel (but trickier, as aluminum gives no color indication of its temperature...too hot, it just drops out of the joint).

Finally, due to aluminum's unusual surface characteristics, most glues and epoxies are usually less than perfect bonding solutions and tend to fail over time and with handling. The aerospace industry (which I've been involved in since the mid-'80s) has developed some special 2-part adhesives specifically for overcoming the difficulties involved with joining aluminum in structural applications, and SOME of them are available in smallish packages. All have to be mixed with a gram scale, however.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Comp, LOL, we use to call it alugium.

Gotta say, while I've got you on the line, I've been lurking on several model sites for a few months now & I've spent considerable time studying your work & techniques.

I'm blown away, man.

One thing's fer sure, I gotta get myself some machine tools & take a couple of classes...

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Ace, I've read about the characteristics of aluminum, but never encountered it for fabbing & welding, as virtually all of my 1:1 work was in steel.

So any tips & insights would be much appreciated!

I know I've a bit of study & practice to do.

I do have a lot of torch time over several years, as I didn't own a wire feed or tig until the early 90's.

Panel work was all with ox/acet & used a good miller stick with well chosen & cared for rod for my frames.

I did see some of Ron Covel's work back in the 80's when he was building Varners "calif star", which was alum bodied, which went on to win the AMBR trophy.

He did his panel work on it with ox/acet or perhaps ox/hyd, but done with torch none the less.

I've even been considering a jewlers ox/acet torch for this & see how that works.

Don't have very many answers yet for the aluminum thing.

If it's too troublesome, I'll just drop back & build with brass...but I gotta try...

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

With your experience, I'm sure you can do it. If you've been doing oxy-acetylene panel work, you already have the skills...just need to work a little smaller. The coachbuilt cars in the '30s that used alloy panels were gas welded, as were later alloy-bodied cars like the Cobras.

I'm definitely all for seeing guys head out in new directions and do things in spite of the difficulty, and I really like your "but I gotta try " attitude.

The jewelers torch sounds like a very interesting idea, and I'll be fascinated to see how you work it all out. Please keep posting the process, even the parts that don't work so well first time out.

One of the aerospace adhesives in small packages comes from PTMW. It's some magic stuff. I'll look up the number of the product. I THINK it comes as small as pint quantities. It cures like an epoxy, is immensely strong, and can be sanded and shaped like a filler.

Back in the late '80s, i did a t-top conversion on a DeTomaso Pantera, and, in my ignorance, I glued the alloy frames to the steel roof panel with a 3M aerospace adhesive made primarily for composite materials and steel. After a few days the interface at the aluminum failed, and no matter how I prepared the surface of the aluminum, the joint continued to fail. That was when I began to research the peculiar bonding properties of aluminum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Bingo, what is the length of those rails? They look huge.

I can't wait to see this come along. Keep it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

nice start Ray, frame rails look great! there is a great model club in your back yard if you didn't know, KC Slammers, let me know if you are interested in coming to a meeting, again nice work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Bingo, what is the length of those rails? They look huge.

I can't wait to see this come along. Keep it up.

Tip to tip, 18 5/8"

Wheelbase is 13 1/4

nice start Ray, frame rails look great! there is a great model club in your back yard if you didn't know, KC Slammers, let me know if you are interested in coming to a meeting, again nice work!

Thanks.

Sounds like that might be informative & enjoyable.

Good way to mingle with similar interests.

More info, please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

thats cool Ray, you can check out the website for the info, KC Slammers.com, hope to see you there!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Here's the assembly jig to hold everything to strict configuration for joining the frame pieces.

I'm using hard maple...I'm also a guitar builder & have a nice collection of maple off-cuts from neck building.

frame13_zpsa50fb48d.jpg

frame15_zpsff44312c.jpg

Top pieces "spoon" on to the bases.

This establishes the contour of the side rails.

I pinned them together vs gluing, to allow for future disassembly if needed.

frame23_zps8f683344.jpg

frame27_zps06c7235b.jpg

frame29_zpsa9161300.jpg

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

excellent! looks like that is going to work out great Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

With your experience, I'm sure you can do it. If you've been doing oxy-acetylene panel work, you already have the skills...just need to work a little smaller. The coachbuilt cars in the '30s that used alloy panels were gas welded, as were later alloy-bodied cars like the Cobras.

I'm definitely all for seeing guys head out in new directions and do things in spite of the difficulty, and I really like your "but I gotta try " attitude.

The jewelers torch sounds like a very interesting idea, and I'll be fascinated to see how you work it all out. Please keep posting the process, even the parts that don't work so well first time out.

One of the aerospace adhesives in small packages comes from PTMW. It's some magic stuff. I'll look up the number of the product. I THINK it comes as small as pint quantities. It cures like an epoxy, is immensely strong, and can be sanded and shaped like a filler.

Back in the late '80s, i did a t-top conversion on a DeTomaso Pantera, and, in my ignorance, I glued the alloy frames to the steel roof panel with a 3M aerospace adhesive made primarily for composite materials and steel. After a few days the interface at the aluminum failed, and no matter how I prepared the surface of the aluminum, the joint continued to fail. That was when I began to research the peculiar bonding properties of aluminum.

I've been systematically reading through the entire big boyz archive & someone mentioned that he tigged an aluminum seat for a project.

So I'm currently looking for a small 110 volt tig unit that will effectively work with .016, which is what I think I'm going to use for body panels, to .060 for the frame...a mini tig, if you will.

The entire head of the unit would have to be mineaturized to allow getting into the small spaces of the inside of the rails, door jam corners on the body etc.

In my small, somewhat confined work space that I've set up for this project i'm beginning to think that I'd rather stay away from flamable gasses & this is pulling me away from the ox/acet jewlers torch.

A tig would be perfect in that the shielding gasses are non-flamable.

I have an explosion proof exhaust fan ducted into this room, so it's well ventilated.

How did your t-top project finally work out?

I assume that your persistance eventually paid off with a successful conclusion.

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

excellent! looks like that is going to work out great Ray

Ya, it's a good design, it holds everything nice & secure.

If I end up welding it together, will probably have to re-build the jig with a different material...not sure the maple will stand up to welding temperatures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

the tig welded seat would be one of my cars, I believe. if you have any questions, ask away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I remember now.

An old style AA rail, I think, on about page 22 of the forum.

I'm all ears.

I'm new to working aluminum & need good info.

Is there a mini tig out there that'll fit my needs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Slaps self on forhead...seems as though I mis-spelled the word deuce in the thread title... :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

first, are you sure you want to tackle tig welding aluminum on that frame, on your first attempt at this? don't get me wrong.....i believe in the can do spirit and all of that sort of thing but, "tig"ing aluminum is NOTHING like welding steel. especially thin sheet aluminum. even if you are successful at welding it. you will need to work it back to being straight again. are you sure you really want to tig this frame?

even a cheap tig that can do A/C welding is not going to be "cheap". the really cheap tigs out there only do d/c. that's why they are cheap. i also don't recommend it be a scratch type tig. you'll need a foot pedal control, not a preset or finger tip control. the mini torch head you want will be an added cost too. then there's the tungsten electrodes, filler rod, gas and personal protective gear. i don't know what you're willing to spend on this so, i thought i'd let you know this ain't gonna be cheap or fast. the learning curve for welding aluminum is pretty slow. i've known guys who have welded all their lives who haven't mastered the skill of "tig"ing aluminum. if you're sure about the cost thing and the dedication. i'll be happy to walk you through it.

please, don't think i'm giving you a hassle or hard time on this. if you truly want to do this, i don't mind helping. i just don't want you to get all gung-ho and rush into this un-informed only to find out how much it REALLY takes to tig weld aluminum. on the other hand. the satifaction level is OFF THE CHARTS!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Dave, I appreciate your straight-forwardness in this.

As I stated in an earlier post, I have no answers in the aluminum thing & am at this point, gathering information & "thinking out loud".

My main attraction to it as a modeling material has been it's easy availability...plus I think it's a beautiful material to built into cool things.

Hence my strong attraction to the mill work you do on your builds + the fact I understand the dedication you have invested in your skills to produce such striking results in your work.

One thing for sure, I've been planning, studying (lurking on model forums & seeking out scratch builders to study), reading & thinking about this build for quite some time.

Couple of years before I retired from doing cars after 30 + yrs, I was in my mid 50's & had already decided I wanted to do guitars.

That was 15 yrs ago & after being in the shop every day & thousands of hours of study & practice, I've pretty much mastered it.

And it has been a worthy challenge to learn how to build a good playable neck that good players want to play on.

Seems like though, every few decades or so, I need a new worthy challenge.

I've set my mind to learn how do this at a high level...I aspire to produce results with the same striking realistic detail as yourself & several other builders who's work I study.

The deuce is gonna get built, even if it takes another 15 yrs + another thousand hours of study & practice.

That's just the kinda guy I am once I get hooked in on something like this...I just can't resist the challenge.

So I just gotta decide what I'm going to build with & how I'm going to stick it all together & unfortunately cost does enter in to my end decision.

Heck, I may end up building it with steel, just for the unique factor...I do already have some experience with it.

And...thank you so much for your generous offer to share your knowledge & insights in this.

Best to you.

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Found this

http://eastwood.com/tig-welders-eastwood-tig-ac-dc-welder.html

ac/dc, footpedal, high frequency start, square wave inverter.

Best price I've found with all the desired features.

Good user reviews on value & quality for price.

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

This car is my main inspiration for this build.

Set it up right & drive it hard.

If I could afford to build a 1:1 this would be it.

Hum, the link isn't working...try to figgur out what's wrong.

Really would like for you guys to see this.

Got it! B)

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Also really like this car. although it's not a 32.

Had a hard time deciding between a 32 or a 33/34.

Especially dig the wire wheels.

Edited by Ognib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now