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So, how long is the "complete list" of green companies that AREN'T failing?

Don't know, I can't seem to find a specific list of successful green energy companies. And that in itself might be the answer to your question.

The fact remains that oil, coal, and natural gas are still the most efficient, cheapest, and abundant sources of energy we have and it will be so for the foreseeable future. It's estimated that there is a 300 year supply of oil under Alaska if only the environmentalists would let us get at it. And if we don't build the Keystone pipeline all that Canadian oil will go to China and not stay in the ground.

Wind and solar are fine ideas but the cost vs. return are still too high for them to be viable for wide scale usage. We'll get there eventually but probably not in our lifetime.

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Drew I have to agree with you. Alaska and the Keystone pipeline are definitely things that need to be looked at, and I honestly can't figure out why we are not taking advantage of them. :huh:

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Don't know, I can't seem to find a specific list of successful green energy companies. And that in itself might be the answer to your question.

The fact remains that oil, coal, and natural gas are still the most efficient, cheapest, and abundant sources of energy we have and it will be so for the foreseeable future. It's estimated that there is a 300 year supply of oil under Alaska if only the environmentalists would let us get at it. And if we don't build the Keystone pipeline all that Canadian oil will go to China and not stay in the ground.

Wind and solar are fine ideas but the cost vs. return are still too high for them to be viable for wide scale usage. We'll get there eventually but probably not in our lifetime.

Being informed is sometimes good. Read posts 93 and 96 and follow the links to some REAL information about energy cost. Former energy secretary Chu doesn't seem to agree with your position either.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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Yea I read those, I've also driven out Interstate 10 from Banning to Palm Springs, California and seen those hundreds of wind generators out there, most of which are standing still, not being used. Same thing up around Davis and Tracy, California.

And I remember the plans to install a few hundred wind generators off the coast of Martha's Vineyard and those wealthy residents up there got the project killed because they didn't want them spoiling the view.

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It's estimated that there is a 300 year supply of oil under Alaska if only the environmentalists would let us get at it.

And by my estimation we have a perpetual source of solar and wind energy.

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Yea I read those, I've also driven out Interstate 10 from Banning to Palm Springs, California and seen those hundreds of wind generators out there, most of which are standing still, not being used. Same thing up around Davis and Tracy, California.

And I remember the plans to install a few hundred wind generators off the coast of Martha's Vineyard and those wealthy residents up there got the project killed because they didn't want them spoiling the view.

I live right in between these areas and consistently drive both ways to go to varies MX tracks, and I can honestly say that at any given time there are a lot that are not moving. I don't know if I would say that most are not moving because there are a few rare times that I have seen almost all of them spinning quickly, but most of the time it seems like the majority are standing still. It really just depends on the day.

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There is one of these cars floating around Milwaukee. I did not know what it was when I saw it, but I was driving the freeway when this sedan whisks by and I could not make out the emblem on the trunk lid. I assumed it was some kind of tree. Very good looking car and I just liked it the minute I saw it. Now I know what it is.

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This is one of those "agree to disagree" things. Refining oil creates pollution. Generating electricity creates pollution.

But a gas-powered car creates pollution in addition to the pollution created by the process of providing that car with its fuel (gas).

An electric car does not create pollution in addition to the pollution created by the process of providing that car with its "fuel" (electricity).

But what about the spent battery pack? Does not the disposal of it cause some waste problems?

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Hey Gang,

There is a tremendous amount of intelligent, thoughtful, insightful, forward-thinking and social-eco-responsibility on this topic, and I for one, have benefitted from all who have taken the time to share their knowledge and viewpoints with their fellow forum-ites. Taking care of mother earth is serious but not without pitfalls. Build something that makes a difference and something that I can fit in, and I would be interested.

But, if I may, I drive a Tahoe because I don't fit in much else. Big carbon footprint, and I don't like it, but I don't have an option given my size.

There is a guy who passes by my house in a smart car every day, I truly admire his contribution to a cleaner, better environment, but.......if I am using my leafblower when it goes by, it blows it into my neighbors yard. Then I have to walk over, pick it up and put it back on the road, kinda like a big slotcar going off the track. I think it will fit in the Tahoe as a backup plan, like a spare tire with a radio and air.

Or, I might just take it, paint it orange, stick a confederate flag on the roof and send it to DANNO, who can take it out for some fried cat sticks...... :mellow:

Mike

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That's very true but, at least for right now, it still costs too much to turn it into electricity.

In some parts of the country, and the WORLD, SOLAR is ALREADY at cost PARITY with conventional grid power. That means it costs the SAME.

And it's coming on fast everywhere. http://www.triplepundit.com/2013/03/solar-power-hit-cost-parity-next-year/

Electricity from WIND isn't far behind. Most current projections expect cost parity by 2016. According to Bloomberg's energy analysts, the best wind installations were ALREADY producing power at grid-cost parity in 2011, and the average wind farm will be there in 3 years. http://bnef.com/PressReleases/view/172

Renewable energy will only continue to come DOWN in price if more plants are built and put online. Stalling, head-in-the-sand policies and popular mis-conceptions will simply delay progress towards a rationally sustainable energy future.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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But what about the spent battery pack? Does not the disposal of it cause some waste problems?

Another very good question. IF the manufacturer designs for ease of closed-loop recylability, disposal eventually becomes a non-issue. Here's Tesla's position on the question.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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I agree with Bill... price will continue to drop as more and more solar and wind sources come online. Like I said in an earlier post, harnessing the sun and the wind (two sources of energy we'll never run out of) is just too logical to ignore. And even better... we can use our solar power and our wind power. We won't have to buy either from countries that don't like us!

And in the meantime... let's get that darn Keystone pipeline built!

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And to echo Harry's earlier question, why is America content to lag behind much of the world in developing clean and infinitely available energy sources ?

"Germany now has five times as much solar power as the U.S., despite the fact that the levels of sunshine it receives are more comparable to Alaska than Arizona, or even Florida (which is closer to Spain).

China is growing faster than any other country and is expected to surpass Germany and take the number one spot this year."

quoted from Triple Pundit, March 18, 2013

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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I live in Ohio, and we have Lake Erie. There is talk of a wind farm there. All it is, is talk. The activists are already trying to kill legislation. Enviornmental impact on the Lake?? from building wind towers?? come on, I was too young to remember when this Lake and the Cuyahoga river caught fire. What was the cause, pollutants from the steel mills, electric generation plants, and storm drains, that emptied into these vessels, before the EPA started. Now the river and Lake are clean(at least enough for usage). I have looked into the costs, to put up a wind generator in my backyard. For a generator to supply my needs would cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would have these costs offset, by supplying the grid, with the overproduction of electricity, within the first 5 years. But then comes the part they don't tell you. STORAGE BATTERY REPLACEMENT AND DISPOSAL COSTS. Again, these are one of the highest expenses. A junkyard in my area, erected a wind tower, so I have talked to him. He has had his paid for, by the power company, as a test. He has told me that every time he calls the company for battery maintenance, it costs him so much, that he had to lease his tower to recoup those costs.

So again, one "Green" portion of this equation still has to rely on "WASTEFUL" technology.

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I live in Ohio, and we have Lake Erie. There is talk of a wind farm there. All it is, is talk. The activists are already trying to kill legislation. Enviornmental impact on the Lake?? from building wind towers?? come on, I was too young to remember when this Lake and the Cuyahoga river caught fire. What was the cause, pollutants from the steel mills, electric generation plants, and storm drains, that emptied into these vessels, before the EPA started. Now the river and Lake are clean(at least enough for usage). I have looked into the costs, to put up a wind generator in my backyard. For a generator to supply my needs would cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would have these costs offset, by supplying the grid, with the overproduction of electricity, within the first 5 years. But then comes the part they don't tell you. STORAGE BATTERY REPLACEMENT AND DISPOSAL COSTS. Again, these are one of the highest expenses. A junkyard in my area, erected a wind tower, so I have talked to him. He has had his paid for, by the power company, as a test. He has told me that every time he calls the company for battery maintenance, it costs him so much, that he had to lease his tower to recoup those costs.

So again, one "Green" portion of this equation still has to rely on "WASTEFUL" technology.

Your "hundreds of thousands of dollars" price quote seems extremely high. Tell me what your power requirements are and I'll get you the right numbers.

As far as battery maintenance and replacement, batteries are NOT necessary for a grid-connected wind or solar installation. Batteries are only necessary for an OFF-GRID, stand alone location. There seems to be some confusion as to how the technologies dovetail.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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Right. Batteries are storage devices. Wind or solar-generated power sold as a utility to the end user would not need any storage devices (batteries). Just as conventionally-produced electricity doesn't need batteries. It's transmitted from the generation station to your home (in several steps), but no batteries are involved. Whether you would get your electricity from a coal-fired plant or a solar array, the power would just "be there" until you flip the switch on to use it.

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Right. Batteries are storage devices. Wind or solar-generated power sold as a utility to the end user would not need any storage devices (batteries). Just as conventionally-produced electricity doesn't need batteries. It's transmitted from the generation station to your home (in several steps), but no batteries are involved. Whether you would get your electricity from a coal-fired plant or a solar array, the power would just "be there" until you flip the switch on to use it.

Yup. In a GRID-CONNECTED installation, the solar array or wind generator produce electricity when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, and excess power generated is fed back to the grid...for which the owner of the installation is paid. No battery storage is involved. When the sun sets or the wind stops, the location draws power from the grid in the usual way. Again, no battery storage is involved. In this scenario, the power would "be there", available from the grid instantly, as Harry states.

Many current installations are making more net power than they draw from the grid, and this can pay for the installation. The numbers ARE already working, so the concept is proven.

In OFF-GRID installations, battery or some other storage method is required to supply power to the location at night or during extended cloudy periods for solar, or during insufficient-wind conditions if wind generators are used alone.

ONE NOTE: Many utilities, including the one I buy power from, give reduced rates for electrical usage during off-peak hours. This is to encourage elective activities like running washers, electric-dryers and turning the AC up, during low-demand periods when the utility will have excess power being generated and basically, wasted. There is currently NO WAY to store excess electricity in large quantities, and it's impossible to scale back generating capacity to the lowest load conditions. Recharging electric vehicles from the grid would be encouraged during off-peak periods, rather than during the traditional peak demand hours (which would require additional generating plants to be built).

electricity-loads.gif

The graphs below show solar generating capability overlaid on typical household demand hours.

ongrid-consumption-1.jpg

This is a good argument for recharging of EVs during daylight by solar generated power. It's also the logical source for peak business and industrial demand.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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Uhh..ever heard of Palm Springs? I live here. It's at least 115 every summer and they keep adding wind mills. Lowest it gets is probably low 40's. MAYBE high 30's. I never bothered to count. They get bigger every time. The newer ones are monitored and the angles of the turbine blades or the entire motor assemblies are adjusted to put them in the most direct path of air, to make them as efficient as possible.

Colder air is denser, don't you think that would move something more than hot air? I don't think it really matters with something as large as a turbine in an open area like a desert.

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The temperature of the air doesn't have any direct correlation to wind speed. You have wind all year long, regardless of air temperature. A wind farm would work as well in Alaska as it would in Hawaii, as long as it's sited correctly. And the fact is, perfectly calm air (zero wind) is not that common. It's not like any wind farm would sit idle for days on end with absolutely no wind.

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