more model T. questions

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If you can't tell this is the AMT 1925 stock chassis but I have a couple questions but first here is my idea picture the late 40's-early 60's a teenager gets his first car for $5 a 1925 model T. Roadster. Very short on cash he knows he doesn't want to going to run it around on stock pizza cutters so he grabs at set of later model rims and tires nothing fancy just steelies and a bit wider tires. That solved i'm wondering how where the fenders assembled? IMG994.jpg was this a separate apron? Then was it possible to remove front fenders and running boards but leave the rear? Thirdly since the boy was low on cash was it common to hop up the original 4 banger or which four cylinder did they swap in? Thanks for putting up with my dumb questions. This era car I know little about now ask me about 50-60's mopars I know much more about them

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How about removing some of the inner wheel well and leave the fenders on if they clear the tires? Just a thought. You could swap in a flathead Ford engine.

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On the Model T (in fact, on virtually every automobile built prior to at least 1932!), fenders, running boards and the splash apron between front and rear were all separate stamped steel components. On the coupe and roadster bodies, the rear fender assembly was bolted to the frame by it's inner, or splash panel, and supported by a fender "bracket" just to the rear of the center-line of the rear axle (to keep the fender from rattling or literally "flapping"). So yes, what you want to do would be very possible on a 1:1 Model T.

Art

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Thirdly since the boy was low on cash was it common to hop up the original 4 banger or which four cylinder did they swap in?

The T engine could be hopped up considerably, but it wouldn't be real easy by the "late '40s-early '60s". A LOT of really trick hot-rod parts were built for the T mills, things like a double-overhead cam head for it !! (Frontenac, among others), but they would be getting pretty rare post-WW2.

A Ford model A engine would have been a relatively cheap way to get more power and reliability, and again, there was a TON of stuff made for the A engine (the B and C were developments of the model-A 4-banger, more refined and stronger, and would bolt in the same hole) including pushrod OHV heads, OHC heads, loads of trick manifolds for multi-carb setups, etc. The much better flathead-V8 gearboxes could be adapted to an A mill fairly easily too.

A little fabrication with the ol' stick welder would have the A engine and trans sitting happily in the T engine bay...a little more mix-and-match with junkyard bits to get it all hooked up to to the T rear, but swapping in an A-bone rear would be a cheap and easy (and MUCH stronger) way to go.

Over time, a car like this could be developed into something that would do close to 120mph, IF your boy learned his stuff well, and saves his milk money to buy trick parts, used. B)

PS. Your guy really wouldn't want to put a flathead V8 in a T. It's been done, but the T frame is REALLY pretty flimsy, and without serious mods to strengthen it, it's a disaster in the making.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

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The T engine could be hopped up considerably, but it wouldn't be real easy by the "late '40s-early '60s". A LOT of really trick hot-rod parts were built for the T mills, things like a double-overhead cam head for it !! (Frontenac, among others), but they would be getting pretty rare post-WW2.

A Ford model A engine would have been a relatively cheap way to get more power and reliability, and again, there was a TON of stuff made for the A engine (the B and C were developments of the model-A 4-banger, more refined and stronger, and would bolt in the same hole) including pushrod OHV heads, OHC heads, loads of trick manifolds for multi-carb setups, etc. The much better flathead-V8 gearboxes could be adapted to an A mill fairly easily too.

A little fabrication with the ol' stick welder would have the A engine and trans sitting happily in the T engine bay...a little more mix-and-match with junkyard bits to get it all hooked up to to the T rear, but swapping in an A-bone rear would be a cheap and easy (and MUCH stronger) way to go.

Over time, a car like this could be developed into something that would do close to 120mph, IF your boy learned his stuff well, and saves his milk money to buy trick parts, used. B)

PS. Your guy really wouldn't want to put a flathead V8 in a T. It's been done, but the T frame is REALLY pretty flimsy, and without serious mods to strengthen it, it's a disaster in the making.

Agreed that a 221-239cid Ford flathead V8 would have required a lot of reinforcing of the T chassis--however, the Ford V8-60 would fit the bill pretty nicely, and in the 50's, those were as cheap to buy as boat anchors, and there were hop-up parts readily available for them.

As for the Model A 4-banger, those were always much more plentiful than the Model B (there was no such engine as a "Model C" in Ford's lexicon--the B 4cyl remained in production until midyear 1934), but the B was a better engine, with a counterbalanced crankshaft and improved lubrication (full pressure lube).

Art

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Agree with Bill and Art. The other thing would be the wheels, mid forties the wheels would be wires, mild Model T motor would run T or A wires. Hot T and later Bangers would be running Model A and later wire wheels, Kelsey Hayes. My Dad ran around in just the kind of T you are describing, from what I've heard about it, it was strongly influenced by what the dry lakes racers were running at the time. He ended up trading the T for a '34 3 Window which turned out pretty nice.

There are several guys over at the H.A.M.B. Who are running and recreating just the kind of Model T based car you describe. Take a look over there, most are very period correct and cool!

As for steel wheels, think about it, by the time steelies were cheap enough for low buck builders to afford the car would pretty much be worn out. Sort of like the young guys running around in Hondas today. by the time they get around to putting a nice set of wheels to replace the flat black steelies the engine is toast from all the Banzai runs!

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Agreed that a 221-239cid Ford flathead V8 would have required a lot of reinforcing of the T chassis--however, the Ford V8-60 would fit the bill pretty nicely, and in the 50's, those were as cheap to buy as boat anchors, and there were hop-up parts readily available for them.

Now that's a GREAT idea. You can find a nice V8-60 in the Revell Midget kit.

As for the Model A 4-banger, those were always much more plentiful than the Model B (there was no such engine as a "Model C" in Ford's lexicon--the B 4cyl remained in production until midyear 1934), but the B was a better engine, with a counterbalanced crankshaft and improved lubrication (full pressure lube).

Well, yes and no on the "C" designation. The guys who raced the things commonly referred to the last version as the C, and their usage agrees with this WikiP entry...

"Model C"

...The four-cylinder engine continued unchanged, but was referred to (by some) as the Model C, though Ford never referred to its "Improved Four-Cylinder engine" as a "Model C" engine. There is some dispute over this; some sources tell it (is) a common misconception due the introduction of a larger counterbalanced crankshaft during the Model B engine production, and the letter "C" casting mark on most, but not all, of the Model B heads.[citation needed] On the other side, this integrally counterweighted crankshaft was first introduced for truck engines only. When they proved superior concerning smoothness and longevity, they were introduced for worldwide four cylinder production. Together with the fact that there were huge quantities of "B" code engines ins stock which needed to be used up before, this explains why there are "B" and "C" coded engines in some model years.[9] as Canadian-built cars used the prefix "C" on their identification plates, there is another source for errors. Model Bs start with prefix "AB", V-8s with "18-1".[10] (Model A part number suffix was ‑A, Police Special High Compression head part number suffix was ‑b, and there was a fairly large letter "B" casting mark about the center of the head.)

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Where can I find a model B either in a kit or aftermarket?

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Where can I find a model B either in a kit or aftermarket?

Externally, the Ford Model B engine is virtually indistinguishable from the Model A, about the only visible differences being that where Model A's 4-banger had a 4-bolt water pump, the B water pump has but three bolts. In addition, Model A engines used an oiling system which required an external oil bypass pipe on the left side of the block, to carry excess oil from the valve galley chamber back down into the oil pan, where the B channeled all oil through the crankshaft for fully pressurized lubrication. The Revell '29 and '31 Model A engines have this external oil bypass pipe as a separate part, which can be left off, the locating holes filled.

Other than these two differences, it's pretty hard to distinguish an A from a B engine, certainly in 1/25 scale.

Art

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Back to your original premise: While of course, back in the early 60's, we then-teenagers readily took wheels and tires from our parts boxes, slapped them onto the AMT '25 T chassis and stock axles with careless abandon--but in real life it took a bit more than that!

Fortunately, for your cash-strapped teenager from that era, old Ford parts were seemingly everywhere, most of which could be bought for scrap prices--which in those years was mere peanuts. Here's what would have had to have happened in order to mount steelies on a Model T chassis:

All Ford wheel hub bolt patterns from about May 1928 clear through 1948 were the same (except for the "wide five" wheels and brake drums used at Ford from 1936 through 1939), meaning that any Ford 21", 19", 18", 17" and 16" would bolt up to any brake drum Ford produced from May 1928 through the end of the 1935 model year, and then again any Ford drum from 1940-48. In addition, Ford hydraulic brakes along with their hubs and drums from 1940-48 will bolt up directly on any Model A through the '32. With millions of Model A Ford front axles laying around in junkyards, and with the easy interchangeability of rear axle housings and the different lengths of driveshaft/torque tubes (and the relative ease of shortening a driveshaft and it's torque tube (only a few dollars worth of job for a local machine shop there!), the task of fitting up a Model A or later V8 rear axle assembly on Model T rear spring and frame was a pretty simple job--and with a bit of work (but not much money) a Model A front spring could be clamped into a Model T front crossmember, allowing the mounting of a Model A or any V8 front axle to the T chassis. All this happened a lot more than many people today might imagine, from backyard hot rods to several very famous late 50's and early 60's show cars--it wasn't all that expensive a proposition, and given that any high school boy back then had access to shop class--well the skills required were readily learned and kids got high school credit for it in the bargain.

Art

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Where can I find a model B either in a kit or aftermarket?

Art's right, and the REALLY nice thing about those old Revell model A engines is that they come with an optional Riley 2-port OHV head, together with a two-carb intake manifold, and a set of open pipes. The Riley 2-port was a pretty trick piece, almost as trick as the Riley 4-port. A 2-port Riley in a T would have been a pretty zippy little car.

There is also a Riley 2-port conversion in the ORIGINAL AMT '29 Ford roadster (a double kit that included the original issue of the Ala Kart). The stock engine in that kit isn't bad, and the optional Riley conversion is nice, but not as nice as the Revell version (which even has separate valve-covers). Unfortunately, the Riley parts appear the have been dropped from subsequent issues of the '29 Ford as a stand-alone.

The AMT '32 Ford roadster is in fact a model B, coming stock in the box with the 4-cylinder and not the famous V8 flathead (which was introduced in 1932 as well) so there's another source. The AMT '29 woody / pickup also has a four-cylinder A engine.

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The Riley 2-port cylinder head came only in Revell's '31 Model A Station Wagon/Tudor Sedan kit. Their '29 Model A pickup kit had an aluminum high-compression flat cylinder head (which would be more in keeping with what a high school kid back then could have afforded to buy.

Art

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where would the frame reinforcements begin? heavier rails & crossmembers? then what happens to the suspension?

(teenager got cheerleader "in trouble", has to quit school, go to work, make payments, and can't afford another ride)

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where would the frame reinforcements begin? heavier rails & crossmembers? then what happens to the suspension?

(teenager got cheerleader "in trouble", has to quit school, go to work, make payments, and can't afford another ride)

There really aren't any logical places in a Model T Ford frame to add reinforcements--but then given the light weight of a T (stock touring car from the factory weighed in at about 1900lbs) and small size (a Model T road on 100" wheelbase with a 4' 8" track--same basic length and width as a VW Beetle) the frame really didn't need much added stiffening.

As for reinforcement in mid-chassis, Ford pretty much took care of that by bolting the engine directly to the frame rails at the flywheel housing, a setup that carried through the Model T years, Model A and the very earliest V8 cars having their engines mounted thus. The front of the Model T engine was solidily fixed into the front crossmember at the centerpoint of the crankshaft. Model A and Model B engines mounted in a very similar layout, but with a spring-cushioned motor mount at the front (but still a single point of contact with the front crossmember).

Model T frames were actually designed to twist a good bit in service--given the rather horrible roads of the time, but frame twisting was both limited by the use of center-anchored transverse leaf springs and the short overall frame length between the rear, solid engine mountings and the rear crossmember.

About the only thing early rodders did with a T frame was to weld the joints between rails and crossmembers (they were riveted together at these points by Ford factory practice).

Art

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The Riley 2-port cylinder head came only in Revell's '31 Model A Station Wagon/Tudor Sedan kit. Their '29 Model A pickup kit had an aluminum high-compression flat cylinder head (which would be more in keeping with what a high school kid back then could have afforded to buy.

Art

This is interesting. The '31 sedan delivery kit also has the Riley, and ONE of the '29 pickup kits I have on the shelf has the Riley setup...though it's not shown on the instructions. I guess someone switched the chrome tree, 'cause the OTHER Revell '29 pickup I have on the shelf has a Winfield high-compression flathead, as Art correctly states. :)

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where would the frame reinforcements begin? heavier rails & crossmembers? then what happens to the suspension?

"Boxing' is the hot-rodder's tried-and-true method of dealing with floppy channel-section (C-section) frames, which includes the T, the A and the '32, among many many others. The process is simple...a flat section ("boxing plate") is welded on the open side of the frame rail, making it essentially a rectangular tube, rather than a channel-section frame rail. This contributes mightily to rigidity.

Folks who do nice clean work remove the crossmembers first, to make a nice clean full-length run on the inside of the rail. Then the crossmembers are modified to fit back in, or replaced entirely.

Hackers tend to scab plates between the crossmembers without removing them, which is better than nothing, but still allows a lot of local flexing where the boxing-plates are interrupted.

This is a typical C-section frame rail, with a section of boxing plate being welded in.

img44.jpg (Photos used under "fair use" definition in copyright law)

And this is a nekkid model A frame, clearly chowing the C-section side rails.

38858454011_large.jpg

Model T frame boxing-plate kit...

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Because the T kit frame has rectangular-section rails, they LOOK like boxed rails. The major work is already done. :)

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

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Chevy inline 6-banger.....Try something a little different.

Readily available back in the day, and performance parts were also available (search the web for the "Inliners").

Several 1/25 sources for the engine, but my favorite is the AMT '51 Chevy Bel Air kit. Kit contains some of the common performance parts for the venerable inline 6.

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Vern Tardell, in his excellent book "Building a Traditional Ford V8 Hot Rod" points out that in actual practice, boxing the frame rails alone didn't work very well in the long run, due to the tendency of any Model T through 1932 Ford frame to twist (a problem common to just about any car frame prior to the introduction of a chassis X member in the middle, which Auburn Automobile Company pioneered with the 1929 Cord L-29 series.

As for an engine for the T, a Chevy 6, while it could be hopped up, probably would have required some frame reinforcement of the T chassis--considering that any inline 6 of the 50's was considerably heavier (by 150lbs or so) than a comparable V8, certainly a lot heavier than a Ford flathead V8. This was due to any inline engine of more than 4 cylinders requiring not only a longer and heavier crankshaft, but the block had to be heavier as well, in order to counteract any tendency to flex or twist (yeah, cast iron can still flex and twist, however slightly, and in an engine block, that's detrimental to such as main bearings). Not only that, but consider the sheer length of the Chevy 6 vs a T four-banger, or even a flathead V8: To install a 6 in a T will require either moving the body back (not difficult to do on a T, recessing the rear of the inline 6 back into the front of the body (a T bucket ain't all that long front to rear--where to put your feet?) or lengthening the frame rails themselves (which will increase the twisting action of the frame itself).

Art

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Vern Tardell, in his excellent book "Building a Traditional Ford V8 Hot Rod" points out that in actual practice, boxing the frame rails alone didn't work very well in the long run, due to the tendency of any Model T through 1932 Ford frame to twist (a problem common to just about any car frame prior to the introduction of a chassis X member in the middle, which Auburn Automobile Company pioneered with the 1929 Cord L-29 series.

Art

Yup, and that's why anyone knowledgeable, when swapping higher-output engines into early chassis (an A-V8 for instance) will use an X-member from some other donor chassis (if building a really traditional, period-style car). The '34 Ford X-member was one of the recommended pieces to do an A-V8, back in the day. Just about any engine swap will get beefed-up, re-worked crossmembers, if it's done by anyone with a functioning brain, for just the reason Art mentions...ladder frames TWIST, but boxing is way better than nothing.

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