Harry P. Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I say you do what you want... it's your model! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthehobbyguy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Very impressive work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 Necessity is a THE Mother of Invention... Here comes the body work. The first and most visible part of the model-it's got to be right or nothing that went before matters. Unfortunately being a Pocher and 3 decades old doesn't make that easy. Seen here is the right hand side and center roof panel. It's a big floppy thing that Pocher has you join with 2 tapping screws into posts that don't line up with the holes in the roof edge. Having to assemble and remove these parts a thousand times for alignment and finish would not work- the screws are loose the second time you do that yielding a floppy mess. A brainstorm (rare for me) led to tapping the posts for 2mm threaded rod and nut- fastening them in place. A bit of CA on the threads plus a dab of epoxy for insurance and they are rock-solid studs which contribute enormously to strength and make disassembly child's play. I will do this wherever possible: Here is the inner side of the left panel. There are posts and holes for attaching the inner door panel and they all need pre-threading or tapping and some need redrilling into a better location for fit. Fun stuff: Here is the outer side of the same panel. You are advised by Koo to keep the door itself molded in place for fitting purposes. It comes out later for truing and finish after the body is placed correctly. The silver squiggles note some of the sink marks to be filled. The louver area has had a raised mold seam removed and made flat. All the edges of the roof and main panels have a thick raised edges (like excess plastic) which needs to be removed to get true and neat panels: Here is the inner door structure. All the screws for this need trimming or relocating. Note the broken edge at lower right-it came out of the box that way but I can't complain-the kit was in remarkable condition and completeness: The bottom of the floorboard with all the faux woodgrain and sinks sanded off. The rectangular hole will be covered over; the battery box is there but was accessed from above by removing the seat. Foolishly, this will get covered with real veneer and fasteners as 1:1. With the chassis inverted it's near impossible to view with all the running gear and linkages in the way. Shoot me: The topside. The slots around the pedals have been relieved for easier fit. Again, all these pieces must go on and off the chassis many times before final placement. The floorboard is very sturdy but does not rest on the chassis rails. It is screwed to the body lower edges. The body is what gets screwed to the chassis' sides. I'm not nuts about that for strength but will cross that bridge in a while: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 The floorboard is very sturdy but does not rest on the chassis rails. It is screwed to the body lower edges. The body is what gets screwed to the chassis' sides. I'm not nuts about that for strength but will cross that bridge in a while: I completely reworked the whole body/floorboard/chassis interface so that I could install the floorboard to the chassis, then the body, then the seats, and finally the roof last. It made sense to me to rework things so that the roof can go on last, after all the body and interior work is finished. Making things work that way involved a lot of changes to the way the body panels and roof assemble. You may not want to do that, it means basically re-engineering the whole body and roof. The basic reason I reworked things to that extent is because like you, I also didn't like how the floorboard doesn't directly attach to the chassis. I wanted to be able to build the model by first installing the floorboard to the chassis, then installing the seats, then the body, and finally the roof. Like I said, reworking things to that extent was a lot of work... but at least now I can install the floorboard solidly to the chassis before the bodywork goes into place. Don't ask me how I did it... it would literally take a book to explain it all. But step #1 was removing the roof from the body sides, and assembling the three roof pieces into one solid unit... to be installed onto the body last. This eliminates the awkward way Pocher engineered this kit by having you screw the roof panels together from the inside after the body is in place. No way I was going to go that route... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 First off Harry, I truly appreciate this kind of input. Apparently the few experienced Pocher builders we had are gone. I may be the only one currently building one here. And I couldn't coax you into restarting yours to share methods. But seeing this is a Godsend as I've been roasting the two gray cells I have left on this dilemma. So sincere thanks. I have been noodling around to a similar conclusion but the fog hasn't cleared enough to see the method. I don't expect you to give an A -Z explanation; what you just revealed is a great start for me to figure out myself. I will tell you that I had conversation with Marvin about fabric covering the roof (not about these assembly procedures) and he was adamant that they do not remove the roof sides from the body. Am not nuts about the covering process on finish-painted parts. I am glad that I 'studded' the roof sections and assembly and removal is safe and easy now. I just tonight took a slight warp out of the center section and got the body sides to sit flush on the counter top. Just give me a couple simple bits of info; did you scribe the side sections off the body?-that curve is dramatic and the plastic is thick. What tools did you use? Plus I'd like to confirm that your floorpan sits flush onto the chassis-right? This is a major help and I like the sequence idea you did much better than Koo's. Can't thank you enough for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Well, I did this all a long time ago, so it's a little fuzzy... but what I basically did is to scribe the roof panels off the body sides with the back side of my X-acto. Then I built the roof into one solid piece, to be covered by fabric and installed last. The now roofless body side panels will need a new way to assemble them and a way for the roof to attach. What I did is use sheet styrene to laminate new interior surfaces inside the body panels behind the rear of the doors and on the back piece, incorporating a system of "tongue and groove" vertical joints that will give me a way to solidly glue the body sides to the rear panel (by running liquid cement into the tongue and groove joints). Also, the new interior panels rise up slightly higher than the edge where the roof was attached, giving me a "lip" all around the body that I can glue the roof onto as the last step of body assembly. Of course, all of this trickery will be hidden by the rear seat. The floor board, as I remember, if built according to Pocher, doesn't actually touch the top of the frame rails. I remember mocking up the chassis. floorboards, body, and rear fenders, making sure everything was positioned so that the rear fenders were centered over the rear axle front to back... and checking how much of a gap there was between the tops of the frame rails and the bottom of the floorboard. I used strips of basswood as spacers... I roughed up the top of the frame rails and the wooden spacers with a Dremel grinding bit, epoxied the spacer strips to the tops of the frame rails, then roughed up the tops of the spacer strips and the bottom of the floorboard within the area that would be in contact with the spacer strips, and epoxied the floorboard onto the top of those spacer strips. Now I had the floorboard solidly connected to the frame, and I can go on to installing the body sides and rear center panel and gluing those together, then adding the seats, and when everything is finished, gluing the roof in place last. I don't remember exactly how I was going to solidly mount the body sides to the floorboards (aside from the Pocher screws), but I know I had it worked out. I would have to dig out the kit and look at it... it would probably all come back to me regarding what I had planned to do as far as connecting the body sides to the floorboard. What really brought all of this re-engineering work on, aside from the flimsy way the body would have been attached to the chassis, was the fact that I had wanted to cover the roof with real leather or fabric... and leaving things the "Pocher way" would have made that impossible to do because of how they engineered the way the body sides and roof go together. It's much easier to "upholster" the roof as a one-piece unit, apart from the body. I suppose it's possible to upholster the roof sides and the roof center panel separately, then assemble the body the "Pocher way," but that would mean upholstering the roof side panels while they are attached to what would be the final painted body sides. Too much chance of messing up the body paint trying to add a covering to the roof if it was still attached to the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 I love you man. Yes I too thought of creating slots on roof and body sides / rear so they interlock. Your method of chassis attachment is clear and I will mock that up. Gotta think about body sides to floor board-those three screws/washers per side suk. I can't envision you just scribing off the roof-that plastic is like rhino hyde. I was thinking maybe a fine coping saw-with the Hand of The Lord to guide me-gulp! But surely the scribing is less prone to damage so I'll prolly start that way. And my roof will be fabric covered too, I finally got the fabric. This will also help me make a headliner inside. After I think more and worry myself sick I will follow your outline. Obviously it works-but I'm not you. Anything I can screw up, I do. I know your time is limited but I would never stop you from unearthing the body and having instant memory recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Maybe I can dig it out tomorrow (after the Bears game!)... And yeah... I did scribe that roof off with my X-acto. It took a while, but there's no better way to do it that I can think of. PS... a side benefit of building the body using my technique is that you can grind off those big old bosses on the inside of the roof. I know, they really can't be seen once the model is done, but just them being there bugged me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 I have been hounding you to rejoin this build after your beautiful chassis and engine were complete. I didn't know you went so far on the coachwork. Any more gems you recall is enormous for me even though it will add months (at my pace) to the build. And I love that because this has been the most enjoyable project I've done since the Cobra. And that was only 27 years... I will root for the Bears even if they play The Celtic Women. Have a couple of cold ones too. I already owe you a steak and a few brews Harry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Based on the journal of this old kit, it makes me wonder whether the return of Pocher is a good thing or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Based on the journal of this old kit, it makes me wonder whether the return of Pocher is a good thing or not. There was some pretty "iffy" engineering on the Pocher "Classics," the Sedanca probably the very worst of all due to the oddball way they engineered the body to floorboard to chassis assembly. But when you consider the complexity of the kits and the huge number of parts (the "Star of India" RR has, I believe, more than 2,600 parts), they are actually pretty amazing. And the "new" Pocher has 21st century engineering and technology available to it that the Pocher guys back in the '60s never had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 Based on the journal of this old kit, it makes me wonder whether the return of Pocher is a good thing or not. Interesting question. I've seen builds of the new Lambo and the word is that the fit and fasteners are all improved and very good. It is surprising light on detail however, especially visible engine parts and plumbing. In light of that, owners said it's somewhat a disappointment considering the lofty price. Some use the term 'a big diecast'. The real test will be if Hornby makes a 'classic' instead of contemporary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 Maybe I can dig it out tomorrow (after the Bears game!)... Are you sure you want to watch this whole horror? I tried Harry, I tried............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Are you sure you want to watch this whole horror? I tried Harry, I tried............. Anyone who prefers the Bears to the cast of Celtic Woman has serious problems. Which team would you rather spend a week with at Sandals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Are you sure you want to watch this whole horror? I tried Harry, I tried............. Yeah, it wasn't pretty if you're a Bears fan... At one point in this debacle, New England scored three TDS.... in less than a minute! But hey! At least the Bears seat a team record! Most points allowed in a half... in team history! If you're going to be bad, you might as well be record-setting bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 If I have time, I'll dig out my Sedanca tomorrow and shoot some pix of what I've done with the body. You know, since a picture is worth 1,000 words and all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxer Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I'm at a loss for words watching this wonderful build ... and you photos are tough to distinguish between reference photos and the real .. model! Thanks for giving us the pleasure of watching you work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 If I have time, I'll dig out my Sedanca tomorrow and shoot some pix of what I've done with the body. You know, since a picture is worth 1,000 words and all... I just put an 8 x 10 portrait of you on my night table..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 I'm at a loss for words watching this wonderful build ... and you photos are tough to distinguish between reference photos and the real .. model! Thanks for giving us the pleasure of watching you work! Mike that is really nice of you. The support feels really good. I really hope I bring this to a successful conclusion for interested viewers as well as myself. Now with Harry's help, that's a better possibility. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Ok... here's what I did (if I remember correctly... this was all done a long time ago)... First I scribed the roof side panels to remove them from the body sides, then assembled the roof into one solid unit so that upholstering it will be much easier: Then I extended the interior panels with sheet styrene, to create a raised lip that I can glue the roof to, and also to create a tongue-and groove joint (not finished in these photos yet) to allow me to glue the body side panels to the rear center panel: At this point I don't remember why I used several smaller pieces of sheet styrene instead of making a template and just using one large piece... but I must have had my reasons. Also, you can see that I changed up the way the cowl will attach... I added styrene flanges so that the cowl piece can be glued in place later, after the body sides are installed, instead of attaching by screws from underneath. Also... you can see that the interior panel is only partly there... as you know, it's that weird very brittle plastic that the brown parts of this kit are molded in that will break if you so much as look at it for too long... and the piece inevitably broke. No big deal, I'll just glue it all together in the end when I glue those interior panels to the outer body panels. Oh yeah... almost forgot to tell you that... I altered the Pocher mounting screw holes because my plan was to glue those interior pieces in place instead of screwing them in place. My plan: 1. Attach the floorboard to the chassis (already done) 2. Attach seats to floorboard. 3. Glue the broken interior body panels together, upholster the interior body panels, then glue onto the finished (painted) outer body panels. 4. Attach the rear fenders to the body panels and attach the body panels to the floorboards. 5. Glue the rear center body panel in place. 6. Glue the finished cowl/windshield/dashboard assembly into place, then add the steering wheel. 7. Glue the finished roof in place. That's the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 First off-bring back Debbie; the best of the Harrys. Next-sincere appreciation for the time you took and sharing your methods. Every thing you showed is clear and much as I envisioned. The roof removal and body flanges I'm good with (though still scared / skeptical about scribing it off). I was actually thinking of the cut being lower, on the body reveal line which has less curvature. I think it could still be flanged there too. But then I would have to paint the reveal part attached to the roof, then cover with fabric. Dunno... The masterpiece is the flanging of the cowl. I just had a mental block how to screw that together upside down when finished and was blanked about it. Your idea makes it so easy to attach the finished unit (with dash) that it's obvious. I just couldn't see it. Often the brilliance is the simplest. Observation: your interior panel broke exactly where mine did. Thanks brittle plastic. Yes I was gonna scrap all the screws and glue finished parts in. I will only use the screws for mocking the panels together for fitment. The assembly sequence is sound. I only have two questions to try your patience. Hopefully a sentence or two will suffice. What was the method for attaching the floorboard to chassis? What method to attach body sides to floorboard? Did you use the screws and washers? I didn't understand your earlier statement about 'spacers.' I'm still deburring and trimming all the individual parts. I am glad I studded the roof and it comes apart easily. Thanks Harry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 The roof removal and body flanges I'm good with (though still scared / skeptical about scribing it off). I was actually thinking of the cut being lower, on the body reveal line which has less curvature. I think it could still be flanged there too. But then I would have to paint the reveal part attached to the roof, then cover with fabric. Dunno... Exactly. I wanted the roof piece to be just the roof piece, no body attached, so I could cover it with either leather or fabric and wrap around the lower edges. The masterpiece is the flanging of the cowl. I just had a mental block how to screw that together upside down when finished and was blanked about it. Your idea makes it so easy to attach the finished unit (with dash) that it's obvious. I just couldn't see it. Often the brilliance is the simplest. Sometimes I just get lucky. Observation: your interior panel broke exactly where mine did. Thanks brittle plastic. Yes I was gonna scrap all the screws and glue finished parts in. I will only use the screws for mocking the panels together for fitment. The assembly sequence is sound. I only have two questions to try your patience. Hopefully a sentence or two will suffice. What was the method for attaching the floorboard to chassis? I glued a wooden strip on top of each frame rail, then glued the floorboard to the top of those wooden spacers. What method to attach body sides to floorboard? Did you use the screws and washers? I didn't understand your earlier statement about 'spacers.' Don't remember. It's been a year or two since I was actively working on this. I had it all figured out, but have since forgotten how I was going to do it. I'd have to look at everything again and re-figure it out. But a guy with your skills can probably figure it out just as well as I can. (The "spacers" were in reference to attaching the floorboard to the chassis, not the body sides to the floorboard.) I'm still deburring and trimming all the individual parts. I am glad I studded the roof and it comes apart easily. Thanks Harry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 :wub: You give me too much credit for figurin' things......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 A 'Eureka!' moment---maybe. So the thickness of the spacer glued atop the chassis rail is this thickness, marked with silver stripe, running the length of the side panel, just beneath the door opening: In this case it's 2mm. And seen here with the floorboard in place on the body side: Simple matter to screw (or glue?) the body side to the fixed-in-place floorboard on the chassis-with chassis inverted. Am I warm??? If true, I gotta wood the bottom and paint the side of the floor soon; the chilly weather is upon me here. Soon no painting. I'll wait to carpet the floor until I get all the other geometry straight but it's an exciting thought..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'll look again tomorrow and see if I can figure out why I did what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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