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I might have to get one since it's so out there, and I think the Corvair would have had a longer legacy if Nader wouldn't have slaughtered it. I remember someone on here mad an awesome Corvair funny car and Named it "Unsafe at any speed". :lol:

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Nadar would not have written if the Corvair did not Kill people as so many GM products of the day . This exact rear suspension design was banned from EVERY RACE TRACK IN THE WORLD BY EVERY SANCTIONING BODY DURING 1953 .

What design ; the one used in Production .

When ; Corvairs from 1960 - 1964 MY's

Why ; due to the instability caused by wheel "Tuck Under" during all , not just aggressive , cornering / turning . Resulting in overturning the vehicle . The Name Turteling was giving by those Naysayers demanding banning this being , making it outlawed . Like a Turtle flipped on it's back .

How (come) : to save Corp $ 00 .45 (CENTS that is) a car by eliminating two U Joints per Vehicle on the Swing Axles . This Choice was deliberate and contrary to the design parameters given of this Project . Development and Customer Saftey were sacrificed to cut costs . Bean counters .. any else one smell Bean Counters ? Ask or read the Engineers wrote about this and on this situation . It would be better yet : Read Ralph Nadar's Book . You decide ..

I would like to see your paper unclescot58 . Is this possible ? I owned a '60 MY in my Miscreant Youth . Trying to live with one is Allot different than looking at one ..

Edited by dimaxion
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really?

so like Volkswagens and porsches would also be excluded?

somehow I don't think so.

the problem with corvairs were their drivers: americans used to big American tanks with an engine in the front and the drive wheels in the back. much as I hate to admit it, Nader did a hatchet job on the car and the company, and by the time the second generation came out all that was behind anyhow. the second generation corvair was basically an American Ferrari in many ways, with a motor that rivaled the source of their inspiration, Porsche. But it got sent to an early grave along with many hopes of American manufacturers adopting some of the engineering ideas from Europe instead of lumbering along in the dinosaurs of the seventies.

jb

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OK guys. Nader did not kill the Corvair. GM sent word to Chevrolet 6 months before Nader's book was published to stop all development work on future Corvairs. They would only allow updates to meet required standards. Corvair was killed by the Ford's Mustang. Corvair invented the sporty domestic compact market. But, Ford and Iacocca figured how to make the idea sell. And sell big. With cheap components shared with their cheap Falcon. Corvair shared very little with any other GM product. It was expensive to build. And did not, and could not offer a V8 engine in that form. Corvair's replacement was in the works. The Camaro. They should have over lapped only one year, 1967. But, by that time there so much bad publicity because Nader's book, GM could not let go of the car. Two years after the last Corvair was built, the National Highway and Safety Administration released their findings on the Corvair. They found it to be no more dangerous than any other car on the road. In the end GM won most of the lawsuits against it.

Very few people have ever read Nader's book, Unsafe At Any Speed. True, he did go after the Corvair. Mainly the 1963 and earlier models. But he also condemned any car with an independent swing arm axle design, like the early Corvairs. This included Volkswagen, Mercedes Benz, and others. The mistake GM did was getting caught trying discredit Nader. This brought the Corvair into the news. Volkswagen mainly kept their mouths shut and went on to sell record numbers of swing arm Beetles at the same time. Unsafe At Any Speed also covers other automotive safety questions other than Corvairs and swing arm axles.

It's interesting to me, hearing the myths that developed over the years on automotive subjects like the Corvair. People hear something. Assume it has to be right. And rarely check the true facts. Soon everybody believes the story because so many people have told it so many times. Corvair's death was economics more than anything else. Falcon sold so many more units in 1960, that Chevrolet quickly developed Chevy II to counter it. In the mean time, the sporty Corvair Monzas sold well enough to keep the line going until the Mustang showed up. Showing a much better and cheaper way of going after that same market. Even then, Corvair sales didn't really take a bad hit until Camaro showed up.

Lastly, I got to meet with Ralph Nader on October 11, 1989. He autographed my copy of Unsafe At Any Speed. With his autograph he hand wrote, "For safer cars & other vehicles". I did not agree with Mr. Nader on several of his conclusions in the book. But, I liked him and feel he was attempting to do the right thing in writing the book.

R. Scott Aho

Automotive Historian, and Corvair lover.

Edited by unclescott58
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Nadar would not have written if the Corvair did not Kill people as so many GM products of the day . This exact rear suspension design was banned from EVERY RACE TRACK IN THE WORLD BY EVERY SANCTIONING BODY DURING 1953 .

What design ; the one used in Production .

When ; Corvairs from 1960 - 1964 MY's

Why ; due to the instability caused by wheel "Tuck Under" during all , not just aggressive , cornering / turning . Resulting in overturning the vehicle . The Name Turteling was giving by those Naysayers demanding banning this being , making it outlawed . Like a Turtle flipped on it's back .

How (come) : to save Corp $ 00 .45 (CENTS that is) a car by eliminating two U Joints per Vehicle on the Swing Axles . This Choice was deliberate and contrary to the design parameters given of this Project . Development and Customer Saftey were sacrificed to cut costs . Bean counters .. any else one smell Bean Counters ? Ask or read the Engineers wrote about this and on this situation . It would be better yet : Read Ralph Nadar's Book . You decide ..

I would like to see your paper unclescot58 . Is this possible ? I owned a '60 MY in my Miscreant Youth . Trying to live with one is Allot different than looking at one ..

Just re-read this posting. I think you need to check your facts a little better. Both Mercedes and Porsche raced cars with swing axles well past 1953. And where you come up with the .45 cent figure on two U joints? You maybe right on this. But it sounds a little low even for a manufacturer in 1960?

Scott

Edited by unclescott58
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Scott I also would like to see your paper if you still have it. Yes from what i understand from READING up on the corvair. the writing was already on the wall for the corvair before Nader's book because of the mustang and chevy's own cars such as the nova and camaro. Corvair shared virtually nothing with any other car gm offered which in my personal opinion is what really killed the corvair. I have driven and rode in a couple different covairs and never felt unsafe. The worst part was trying to keep the factory record player from skipping which meant avoiding every bump pothole and crack in the road.

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Chevrolet didn't need the Corvair; they were selling thousands of conventional, cast iron pushrod engine cars every working day. They'd have been a lot smarter to bring the Chevy II out in 1960, or share the front-engine version of the compact that Pontiac, Buick, and Olds were using. Ten years later, they'd have been smart to bring out the Vega with the already tested, anvil-simple cast-iron four-cylinder engine that they were still putting into a few thousand Novas a year, as well as selling to Mercury Marine (for boats) and Kaiser Jeep (for postal vehicles). The Vega got its aluminum engine in part because GM and Reynolds Aluminum had a lot of money tied up in aluminum foundry facilities. With the Corvair gone, the investment was too big to leave idle, so the Vega got the aluminum engine.

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Scott I also would like to see your paper if you still have it. Yes from what i understand from READING up on the corvair. the writing was already on the wall for the corvair before Nader's book because of the mustang and chevy's own cars such as the nova and camaro. Corvair shared virtually nothing with any other car gm offered which in my personal opinion is what really killed the corvair. I have driven and rode in a couple different covairs and never felt unsafe. The worst part was trying to keep the factory record player from skipping which meant avoiding every bump pothole and crack in the road.

Yes Dave I still have at least one copy in my collection. I have two thoughts on getting this to you. One is since you live in the same city, you could come by a read it. The only problem there is I'm not willing to let the one copy I know of for sure leave my house. The second idea would be to scan this paper and my other automotive papers in the computer, so they can be shared with anybody who might be interested in them.

Your understanding of Corvair history sounds correct to me, except.... You mention a factory record player. I've never seen a factory optional, or Chevrolet or GM authorized dealer installed accessory record player. Chrysler is the only company I know of to put record players in their cars from the factory. RCA and others made record players for cars that you could install, or have someone install for you. But, I've never heard or seen anything by Chevrolet or GM offering this accessory on any of their cars. If you have proof of that, I'd like to know more.

Scott

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One other thing. I've driven several Corvairs. Both first and second generation cars. Sure you can tell the engines in the back. But, I never found their handling to be a problem. I've never taken a professional racing class or anything like that. I spent a lot of years working for car dealers, and have driven a lot of dealer trades. But, I consider myself no more than an average driver. And I've had no troubles or worries when driving a Corvair. It seems no different from driving a rear engine Volkswagen. Other than the Corvair maybe less effected by crosswinds.

Scott

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Yes Dave I still have at least one copy in my collection. I have two thoughts on getting this to you. One is since you live in the same city, you could come by a read it. The only problem there is I'm not willing to let the one copy I know of for sure leave my house. The second idea would be to scan this paper and my other automotive papers in the computer, so they can be shared with anybody who might be interested in them.

Your understanding of Corvair history sounds correct to me, except.... You mention a factory record player. I've never seen a factory optional, or Chevrolet or GM authorized dealer installed accessory record player. Chrysler is the only company I know of to put record players in their cars from the factory. RCA and others made record players for cars that you could install, or have someone install for you. But, I've never heard or seen anything by Chevrolet or GM offering this accessory on any of their cars. If you have proof of that, I'd like to know more.

Scott

you are right I assumed it was factory unit it was in my uncles 63 corvair. I loved that car and the fact he let me take it to my prom
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I'm really looking forward to this reissue.

The last time that I came across an original for sale, the guy wanted $200! That's more than most of my 1:1 Corvairs cost me in years past. ;-)

Scott's (unclescott) comments are pretty well on the money regarding the Corvair's demise. The Mustang did it. For about the same $$$ as the Corvair, a red-blooded American kid could get a Mustang with a V-8. Most would choose the V-8 vs the pancake six; it's a no-brainer. Otherwise, both had a pleasant body style and bucket seats, etc. Ironically, the Mustang was Ford's knee-jerk reaction to the sporty Corvair "Monza", and the Camaro was GM's reaction to Iaccoca's Mustang V-8.

I've been fortunate to have owned nearly 40 different Corvairs since I was 15 years old (and have driven many, many more). Had at least one (1) of every model year and body style - even a '66 coupe with an SBC mounted midship! Drove them all the time, in all sorts of weather, and even raced a few. Never had a single one exhibit a tendency to flip over, although the pre-1964 units without rear sway bars could get a little "loose". I feel sorry for any of the families that might have had loved ones injured or killed in a Corvair back in the day, but I think these drivers really had to be hanging it out there on the edge. My experience with the Corvair is such that I found it to be as safe-handling and predictable as any other car of that era which I've driven.

I lump all of this anti-Corvair hysteria in the same category as the hoopla that we experienced a few years ago with the Ford Bronco/Explorer trucks and their tire "situation", and the similar thing with the Suzuki "Samarai" SUV. ANY car/truck which is driven in a stupid manner and beyond its design limitations can get the driver into trouble...

You want to know the design flaws in a Corvair that really will kill you?

1) the heat system which draws hot air off of the exhaust manifolds (like old VWs). The manifold "donut" gaskets had a tendency to go bad and allow CO2 into the car (as well as oil fumes from leaky pushrod tube O-Rings);

2)rear axle bearings on the pre-1965 units. The bearing could experience a catastrophic failure, and the axle would pull right out of transaxle on the highway. As the wheel/axle exited out the side of the car, it usually destroyed the rear brakes in the process. Since these early Corvairs all had a single master cylinder brake system, this would cause the loss of ALL of the brake fluid in the system, meaning No Brakes!

Oh well, 40 years later I'm still driving Corvairs, and still alive to tell about it!

Edited by ToyLvr
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Side note. The famous comedian Ernie Kovacs was was killed when his Chevy Corvair flipped over in the early 1960's. A lot of people point to that accident as proof of how dangerous Corviars were. What a lot of people forgot, or didn't want to look at, about Ernie Kovacs accident, is not only was he driving a Corvair. But, he had left a party were he had been drinking. Just had a augment with his wife, which caused him to leave the party without her. And he was driving on mountain road in the rain. But, somehow it was the Corvair's fault. I think under those circumstances Ernie could rolled a "so called" safe car like a Volvo (by the way, look up the Latin meaning of the word Volvo for a bad joke here), or any other car for that matter. Killing himself in the process. There were people killed in Corvairs. But, as noted earlier, the National Highway and Safety Administration exonerated the car in the end. And GM won most of the lawsuits against the Corvair.

And what this really has to do with a model of a Corvair drag car? Nothing! Other than every time the subject of Corvair comes up, someone will point out that the Corvairs were dangerous and/or Ralph Nader killed the car. Neither is true. And I love Corvairs, and will buy just about any model of a Corvair I can find. Now, off my soap box on this subject. I've said enough.

Scott

Edited by unclescott58
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Sorry guys. I'll take the blame for taking this one off course. Back the model. I went over to the Drastic Plastic instruction web site to look at the kit. It looks like it's going to be a fun and interesting build. As noted before, I'm not a big funny car fan. But, this one appeals to me. Just one question. When I'm finished, am I allowed to display it on its roof?

Scott

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Sorry guys. I'll take the blame for taking this one off course. Back the model. I went over to the Drastic Plastic instruction web site to look at the kit. It looks like it's going to be a fun and interesting build. As noted before, I'm not a big funny car fan. But, this one appeals to me. Just one question. When I'm finished, am I allowed to display it on its roof?

Scott

The Corvair discussion is kinda cool and interesting, just better suited to the General board. Would get way more reads there anyway. Here on the Kit reviews board it just ends up being 2 guys going back and forth. Start a Corvair thread in General, I know you'd get a lot of responses from the guys who like to talk auto history.

Edited by Brett Barrow
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The 65-69 Corvairs had 4 wheel independent suspension like the Vettes. But I agree with the economics analysis, nobody wanted them after '65 when the Mustang came out. That air cooled six with a turbo got the most out of a so so engine.

They probably made the '68-69s under a plant agreement.

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