When do you stop building for yourself & start building for the hobby?

[Greg Myers]

That is a perfectly valid question. Why did so many of you jump in with inane comments that have nothing to do with the question asked? Why are so many of you so eager to start flame throwing? Why do so many of you not understand the question asked and respond accordingly? Seriously... every time someone tries to have an adult conversation here, they immediately get shot down and drowned out by people who don't even understand the question being asked!

This would make a great thread all by it's self.

[J Morrison]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? I mean, I get you're saying people should do it right, but are you just gum-flapping and not acting on it?

If someone opens a panel wrong, are you just going to tell him it's wrong, or or you going to help him gel better and then, as a result, get your wish?

I didn't really wanna get involved in a flame topic, but I had to ask you.

First, this is not nor was it intended to be a flame topic. It devolved into that because of some immature answers and an unwillingness or fear of having an adult conversation about an admittedly charged topic.

Second, I'm not talking about helping a new or average builder. I'm talking about nationally recognized builders who have the ability to build to a very high standard but for some reason say either "I build for myself" or "I don't know about xxxx" to excuse away a portion of the build that isn't up to the standard of the rest of the build.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Obviously, either someone needs to pass a FEDERAL LAW requiring that all nationally-known builders conform to an arbitrary level of proficiency (with appropriate penalties for violation of said proficiency-minimums) or there needs to be an elite-model-builders-association, where membership is determined and maintained on the basis of how many mistakes a builder makes in any given period, and if a set number is exceeded, the builder is either given warning-points, fined, or dropped from membership...with much fanfare, name-calling and negative media exposure.

Problem solved.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[blunc]

This thread looks a LOT like one that was recently locked, with regard to "expert work".

Although in this case no reference was made to disenchanted visitors.

To answer the OP, technically there is no responsibility by anyone to improve the hobby unless there is a contract involved that states such... "technically".

Like other builders here, I will build to the level I like, and if I notice a WIP posted on this forum that looks like they like to build to a similar level and I notice discrepant detail then I will let them know. If they get all butt-hurt, then they have just lost the benefit of knowledge that may have helped them later.

I would like to thank Harry for pointing out that responders here should at least try to make a response to the original post.

[Greg Myers]

Multi-million-dollar-a-year sports figures, musicians...even presidents...don't seem to find any particular need to lead by virtue of being shining examples of "doing it right" (even though in many cases, they're role-models for large numbers of young people...and should know it) so why would model car builders be expected to live to any higher standards?

The president thing is where we started to lose it. I think , we , as a nation, group of people,hobby,or what ever , do have expectations of people of fame, people in the limelight, people that are put forth by the media on a pedestal.

Weather or not these same people chose to live up to these standards, which they themselves have set, weather or not they had intended to or not, is the question.

[Greg Myers]

We all have different levels, some higher than others.

[chunkypeanutbutter]

Bottom line, if it's not your work, you can't force someone to live up to your expectations because you want em to.

[mustang1989]

Youre right blunc. I shouldn't have posted here. I know better.

Edited November 14, 2014 by mustang1989

[blunc]

this would be a lot shorter thread if a moderator removed all posts that had nothing to do with the original question...

[Ace-Garageguy]

Boy oh boy, Greg, you've got some nads putting THAT picture up. I can see all kinds of people taking offense to it. The darker guy is taller, so obviously must be only capable of playing sports...definitely racist in some minds...the Asian-looking guy in the wheelchair is obviously a slur intended against Asians as being handicapped somehow...obviously racist again...and there are TWO white guys...obviously meaning that they are the ruling class.

Man, talk about incendiary posts !!!

What was the question again??

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[J Morrison]

Bottom line, if it's not your work, you can't force someone to live up to your expectations because you want em to.

Again I NEVER said to FORCE anyone to build to a certain level. Please go back and read all my posts and work on your reading comprehension skills before replying again. Yes I realize that was passive aggressive but it's getting tiresome having to say the same thing over and over and over.

[Ace-Garageguy]

.

When does someone become so popular in the hobby that they can no longer cut corners & "build for themselves" and have to take it to the next level. Whether that means learning & properly displaying mechanicals or take a step back & execute ALL the details properly instead of just 90%-ing details for the sake of them being on the model.

So if you don't want to FORCE the issue, what else is there? How do you achieve voluntary submission to a "get it right or else" scenario??

[J Morrison]

So if you don't want to FORCE the issue, what else is there? How do you achieve voluntary submission to a "get it right or else" scenario??

I'm just wanting to see what others think about the subject. I'm not saying a builder HAS to do anything. Would I like to see the hobby better represented at the highest, most recognized levels? Of course. Do I expect anything to change? Not realistically. If there was a larger concensus if hobbyists who felt the same way, then change might occur but it looks like sadly that us not the case.

[highway]

You haven't answered my question in response to your opening statement. Again, why do you feel a person is compelled to increase the accuracy of his/her work based upon how much public recognition that person's work receives?

I'm not sure about Jonathon Casey, since I don't know him personally but I do feel he shares some of my same views, and my opinion on this is if a builder is regularly featured in magazines especially, that the work that is featured should be work of a "higher standard" than the normal builder. I know through what could be considered my "developmental years" in this hobby after I joined the local club in my area, reading through the magazines were one of my "studies" on how to build better models. I didn't even know the definitions of such things as "mold lines", "ejector pin marks", and the like, it took the teaching of the elder members of my club to teach me fixing just these "natural" flaws were all a part of basic building skills. I also learned that just because there is a $100 of photoetch and/or aftermarket products in a build, if the basics aren't there, it doesn't make it a good or even great model, just a $100 pile of you know what. I'm no where near a "perfect" modeler, and never will be because there is no such thing, but when I look through the magazines and see builds in there built by easily recognizable names and there are glaring flaws even as simple as seams on tires, seams on the body, or areas that should painted that aren't, it makes me think that today's "everybody's a winner" PC BS crowd just looks and says "OHHHH SHINY STUFF"!. It goes deeper than that, too, just like some very nice builds that just have a glaring flaw, say mismatched or missing cogs on a cog driven belt for example, that also makes me wonder why the builder couldn't have spent a little more effort to make them match instead of having something that just draws the eye from an otherwise nice build. As I said, I'm no where near perfect, but something as simple as that would keep me up at night until I make it right, but I guess I hold myself to a "higher standard" than even the "famous" builders!

I'm with Casey on this. Do you know if the modeler you describe even exists? Do you know someone who feels that kind of pressure? It seems more likely to me that elite builders do what they do because they can and they like to.

Yes, as I just said above, look in the magazines! There have been some in features and even show coverage that just make me think "How did this even get in a magazine!?!?" that I feel is just a waste of ink and space.

[ZTony8]

Builders become "popular" through exposure in magazines and forums.These forums are free presentation areas for build photos.,flaws and all.Magazines have staff members who edit and decide what gets published.The magazine staffers need to be able to discern what a good model is and if there are glaring errors in the build not publish those photos.That would cut down a lot of criticism and elevate the perceived quality of the model presented.

A personal note- a few years ago the other model magazine used a photo taken at the NNL Nationals of one of my builds.It was used on their inside back cover for drumming up subscriptions.There are obvious flaws in the model(more than the photo shows) and I was quite surprised that the most notable flaw(chipped tire lettering) wasn't photoshop corrected.

[Psychographic]

As for magazine coverage, isn't the magazine responsible for what they put in it? Doesn't the magazine have the last word in what gets published? How would that fall back onto the builder?

[Ace-Garageguy]

. Would I like to see the hobby better represented at the highest, most recognized levels?

Frankly, I was pretty well blown away by the quality of work, overall, at the recent NNL South meet, and it was noticeably better overall than last year. Standards for exhibiting models is coming up, but I'd wager the majority of those guys don't frequent this board OR get published in magazines.

Why? Who knows. Maybe a builder doesn't suck-up enough, maybe the model doesn't appeal to the taste of the particular photog or publisher, or maybe most of the builders represented by the 500 or so outstanding models on those tables really DO build for themselves, and choose to attend the show for fellowship among the community. After all...the NNL style shows are NOT contests....but who knows?

And I ask again, in different words...how can you impose your standards of what is "good enough" for a well-known builder, or for publication?

I see HALF-ASSED work on 1:1 cars daily...work that somebody paid big money for often as not, and all I can do about it is to not do shoddy stuff MYSELF.

ALL you can do is raise the bar on YOUR OWN WORK.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Pete J.]

I would like the forum's opinion on this subject.

When does someone become so popular in the hobby that they can no longer cut corners & "build for themselves" and have to take it to the next level. Whether that means learning & properly displaying mechanicals or take a step back & execute ALL the details properly instead of just 90%-ing details for the sake of them being on the model. What is the opinion of the board?"

It always surprises me when a thread like this comes up. I know a few of the "popular" modelers and they are in some respects a different breed. I think that those who just see the builds and description assume that it has to be some external force driving them. This, in my experience, just isn't so. The reality is that they don't build to compete with others or generally build to others expectations. It just isn't in them. They do so because they truly enjoy taking their modeling to the next level. They enjoy finding something that they never tried before and succeeding at doing it. They could no more sit down and build to a lesser standard than a pig could fly. It is not in their nature. The other assumption is that doing this is not fun. To them it is. The fun in the hobby for them is in the experience of learning that new technique or getting something just right or mastering a new medium. Like everybody on this board they are having fun, just in their own way. If you don't see what they are doing as fun it doesn't matter, they do, and frankly most are very willing to share that with you if you let them.

[Casey]

my opinion on this is if a builder is regularly featured in magazines especially, that the work that is featured should be work of a "higher standard" than the normal builder.

Yes, as I just said above, look in the magazines! There have been some in features and even show coverage that just make me think "How did this even get in a magazine!?!?" that I feel is just a waste of ink and space.

It's definitely reasonable for a magazine to have certain standards for the work they feature, but it's up to each editorial staff to decide what should and shouldn't make the cut for publication in their magazine. I neither read nor subscribe to any magazines, so I don't have anything to add in regard to that part of Jonathon's question.

It's the builder's popularity-induced obligation, an obligation which is mandatory and must be acted upon, which I disagree with.

[Ace-Garageguy]

... I know a few of the "popular" modelers... are in some respects a different breed. I think that those who just see the builds... assume that it has to be some external force driving them... The reality is that they don't build to compete with others or generally build to others expectations. It just isn't in them. They do so because they truly enjoy taking their modeling to the next level. They enjoy finding something that they never tried before and succeeding at doing it. They could no more sit down and build to a lesser standard than a pig could fly. It is not in their nature. The other assumption is that doing this is not fun. To them it is. The fun in the hobby for them is in the experience of learning that new technique or getting something just right or mastering a new medium. Like everybody on this board they are having fun, just in their own way. If you don't see what they are doing as fun it doesn't matter, they do, and frankly most are very willing to share that with you if you let them.

PERFECT POINT.

[Ramfins59]

First of all, I can't believe how this thread is going...

As far as being a "famous modeler" exactly what qualifies a person to wear that "title"?

I started back into this hobby in 1992. From 1996 until the present I have had almost 2 dozen of my models pictured in various magazines (Model Cars, Scale Auto, Custom Rodder, Street Rodder, Rod & Custom and a Finnish Car Magazine that had NNL East show coverage). In 1999 I had 2 feature articles in Scale Auto, one about 2 cars I built (a '55 Chevy Custom and a '40 Ford Pickup Street Rod), and the second was a How-To on my interior flocking technique. Does that qualify me as a "famous modeler"? Not in my eyes really..... and I would never even presume to preach to anyone that my way of building and/or detailing is "the way to go" in this hobby. I build what I like, the way I like, and if people like it ...fine.....if they don't, that's fine too. Of course we all love the kudos, attaboys and pats on the back, but that's not what makes me do what I do to my models. I build for me and me only. I have yet to build a perfect model and seriously doubt that I ever will. In theory at least, each one is a little bit better in some way than the last one was, and hopefully that will continue.

[J Morrison]

Simply put, to expect someone else to be perfect, when we ourselves aren't, is ridiculous period. The perfect model has yet to be built and probably never will be.

Again the point was missed and an invalid response was made. I NEVER said I expect anyone to build a perfect model. It's not possible. However if you are going to add detail make sure the detail is correctly don, not just detail for the sake of detail.

[Russell C]

........ getting into another builder's mind and thought process is an area I'm not sure we should be probing.........

.........Some things once seen can not be unseen & you can never look at the model without your eyes being drawn to the error. ........

This seems to be a variant of the "What do model builders overlook… " thread applied to 'famous name' builders: I'll put my head on the chopping block first before tossing in my 2¢.

I may have been somewhat well known in the early '90s since a few of my weird models made it into magazines from national model contests, e.g. my 911 woody wagon. That model may be criticized for its design, paper magazine 'wood grain' and the cop-out of becoming a interior-less slammer, but it was originally intended to be a full knock-out Turbo coupe. One could say I rose to the challenge of not shortcutting it on the '88 Porsche details such as the proper separated-from-bumper front valance, proper number of pleats on the rubber bumper bellows, multi-reflector rear lights, lathe-turned door locks, more-to-scale metalflake paint, side mirrors with separate black surround pieces with the mirror surfaces aimed toward the driver's seat headrest, valve stems/wheel weights, etc.

While attending contests at that time, there was a particular builder (who I can't place now) at either GSL or the Southwest Challenge contests who had absolutely killer paint jobs worthy of best paint awards, and his detailing was really very good. I vaguely remember one of his being something like a mid-'60s Chevy with an elaborate breathtaking red, white & blue paint job and really good engine and interior work…. but the jaw-dropper for me was the kit's chrome plated front turn signals of which he covered with two blobs of Tamiya clear orange, some of it bleeding onto the bumper. The glitch was like an irresistible eye magnet to me. I could never approach his painting skills, but I most certainly could have cut out the chrome lenses, built rectangle boxes for each, filled each with strips of bendable chrome mylar for the reflectors with a gray circle in the center to simulate a bulb (a shortcut, yes, but visually effective), filed some clear lenses flatter on the back / polished smooth to avoid the mile-thick appearance, painted clear orange with teensy dots of silver for the lens bolts, with the end result being killer turn signals. Such an effort might have only taken an additional hour of work. Even just the visual trick of additional semi-clear over the chrome with 'bulb' simulation like I described for my Lambo 300 could have been done in less time while still yielding an effective appearance.

I was left wondering why a person of his skill level had overlooked that detail. Who knows, maybe he spaced it out completely and contest deadline pressure didn't leave enough time to fix it beyond those quick orange dabs. Or maybe he hadn't fully grasped the 'every model element can be a stand-alone model itself' philosophy of killer model building. Daunting goal to achieve sometimes, and a reason why some of my projects stopped dead because I couldn't resolve a problem of how to achieve realism that satisfied my own standards.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Again the point was missed and an invalid response was made. I NEVER said I expect anyone to build a perfect model. It's not possible. However if you are going to add detail make sure the detail is correctly don, not just detail for the sake of detail.

There was a thread maybe a couple years back discussing "how much accuracy is good enough", that addressed this particular point in some depth. The same old standard arguments came up, with tons of "I build for myself" responses, the assumption that building "accurate" models was somehow not "fun", "these models should represent actual practice on 1:1 vehicles" and every permutation in between.

We've been here before.

There oughta be a T-shirt.

[Casey]

We've been here before.

Very true, and anyone hoping for a consensus is going to end up disappointed.

There oughta be a T-shirt.

I think I have a few size Small left.