When do you stop building for yourself & start building for the hobby?

[935k3]

Again the point was missed and an invalid response was made. I NEVER said I expect anyone to build a perfect model. It's not possible. However if you are going to add detail make sure the detail is correctly don, not just detail for the sake of detail.

Where have you gotten the right to tell anybody how to build or judge anybody's intentions when building. I wish the moderators would put an absolute end to these ridiculous questioning threads, or at least put them in a separate category.

Edited November 14, 2014 by 935k3

[Casey]

Where have you gotten the right to tell anybody how to build or judge anybody's intentions when building. I wish the moderators would put an absolute end to these ridiculous questioning threads, or at least put them in a separate category.

Why can't a member ask for other's opinions in regard to his opinions? Why are the tough questions that make people think and consider their own opinions, as well as those of others, considered a bad thing, something that should be frowned upon? I admitted I knew the O.P.'s question was loaded from the start and that is was a judgement call on my part, but there's nothing wrong with discussing the topic even if it creeps to the fringes of legitimacy.

Sometimes we have to give posts a certain amount of leeway when we feel the discussion has value to the membership. Not everyone will, nor do they have to agree, but we make judgement calls and they are not perfectly consistent all the time. This is one of those times.

[1930fordpickup]

I get the question but I do not feel there is a right answer for it.

We can not expect someone else to be perfect no more than we can expect ourselves to be.

[J Morrison]

If you truly want that, then build the model that will do that. If you can't, don't expect someone else to do it! Unless you can build a better model than the person you're criticizing and prove it, you have no grounds to criticize them or hold them to a higher level than you yourself can achieve. If you can, we all want to see it. If you want the hobby to go to a higher level, take it there with a built model. You'll get all of the exposure you're after. I guarantee it. Then, we can hold you up to the level that we expect from you. But, it's easier to join a forum and complain because builders that get the exposure aren't meeting your expectations of them, isn't it?

Again what I have replied previously in this thread has been overlooked/ignored. I'm NOT after glory or fame myself. I'm talking about builders whose skill level is very high and already have national exposure. When 90% or more of their build is great that 10% that isn't stands out even more and looks lazy or unprofessional. When a builder shows they can do much better but shortcuts an aspect of their build it's a let down.

I was bringing this topic up to see if their were other like minded people in the hobby. Unfortunately it looks like most are more than willing to accept and defend mediocrity in the face of quality. Sadly this is not just prevalent in the hobby but a lot of aspects of society but that is a topic for a different place.

[J Morrison]

Where have you gotten the right to tell anybody how to build or judge anybody's intentions when building.

Apparently from the same place you "gotten" the right to question my right. They were having a sale.

[1930fordpickup]

Thats funny right there.

[J Morrison]

Why can't a member ask for other's opinions in regard to his opinions? Why are the tough questions that make people think and consider their own opinions, as well as those of others, considered a bad thing, something that should be frowned upon? I admitted I knew the O.P.'s question was loaded from the start and that is was a judgement call on my part, but there's nothing wrong with discussing the topic even if it creeps to the fringes of legitimacy.

Sometimes we have to give posts a certain amount of leeway when we feel the discussion has value to the membership. Not everyone will, nor do they have to agree, but we make judgement calls and they are not perfectly consistent all the time. This is one of those times.

Well put Casey, thank you. As another poster said, Asking why serious, thought provoking questions can never be asked without such resistance could be a topic unto itself.

[highway]

It's definitely reasonable for a magazine to have certain standards for the work they feature, but it's up to each editorial staff to decide what should and shouldn't make the cut for publication in their magazine. I neither read nor subscribe to any magazines, so I don't have anything to add in regard to that part of Jonathon's question.

It's the builder's popularity-induced obligation, an obligation which is mandatory and must be acted upon, which I disagree with.

Yes, it does fall on on the (sometimes poor) choices of the editorial staff of what DOES make it in a magazine, but also if you happen to be one of those builders that are a regular feature in a magazine, it should fall on THEM to take enough pride in their own work to make each build better than the last. I've never had anything in any magazine, but that still doesn't stop my yearning to improve my skills. I guess, as usual, I'm in the minority here, but in those "developmental years" I looked up to builders in the magazine and know quite a few of the older "big names" from the 90s and 2000s personally and have seen their work firsthand, and have asked many questions to try and learn as much as I could from them. That said, some of the things I see from today's "big names" that should be teaching the new modelers today and featured in today's magazines wouldn't be worth the time to talk to, because some things like the examples I've stated earlier in this thread shows they don't share the same passion I do for the hobby and pride I take in my builds, and in my opinion just show new modelers learning that it's OK to not make something look correct and just use the "I build for myself" excuse.

[Harry P.]

Yes, it does fall on on the (sometimes poor) choices of the editorial staff of what DOES make it in a magazine...

You may think we make "poor" choices, but that's because it's us that are making the choices, not you. I'm sure if you were in charge of deciding which models to include, you would think that every choice was brilliant.

We try to include models that cover a wide spectrum of genres, so that in any given issue there should be something to interest someone. We don't do only drag models or only muscle cars. And because we like to include the widest range of automotive models, sometimes the models we get submitted are not perfect... and we know that. But we include them because they are interesting models, not because they meet some sort of level of quality. We won't use obviously poorly built models, but the occasional flaw or mistake in a model isn't going to make us say "no."

[JunkPile]

I wonder how John feels about this. I wouldn't wanna be in his shoes.

[Ramcharger]

I'm going to weigh in on this a little because lots of folks have misinterpreted the original question, probably because it appeared to me to be nothing but an exercise in thought. I understand it to be that he was wondering if these unnamed builders that have gained some notoriety ever worry that they may let down their audience. More of a what if Donn Yost showed up at a contest with a paint job full of orange peel that could be seen from space, enough dirt to fill a sandbox and runs and smears everywhere? How would other modelers react? Do these guys who are very good at their craft ever think, "what would happen if I lost it?" the "it" being the ability to build fantastic models? I know there are guys that have built a really fantastic model and then quit because they feel they could never do it again, or they stop going to contests in case they can't measure up to themselves. Not everyone is that way, so the rest of this flame war was just entertaining. That's the view from my end of the universe.

[Ace-Garageguy]

...Unfortunately it looks like most are more than willing to accept and defend mediocrity in the face of quality. Sadly this is not just prevalent in the hobby but a lot of aspects of society but that is a topic for a different place.

That's VERY true, but that's not how I'm reading the majority of responses to this topic. Pointing out something that could have been done better on an otherwise spectacular build is one thing, but calling that build "mediocre", "lazy" or "unprofessional" (I'm quoting terms you've used here) because of a few flaws is something else entirely.

Where are the "professional" standards for building model cars documented? I'm really curious. I know where to look them up for most of the fields I WORK in (as in vocation), but I'm completely ignorant as to where to find them relative to model-building (model-building for pleasure...not prototypes for product development, wind-tunnel work, etc.).

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[chunkypeanutbutter]

'Where are the "professional" standards....'

Car good. Car bad.

I analyze them this way most times.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Again what I have replied previously in this thread has been overlooked/ignored. I'm NOT after glory or fame myself. I'm talking about builders whose skill level is very high and already have national exposure. When 90% or more of their build is great that 10% that isn't stands out even more and looks lazy or unprofessional. When a builder shows they can do much better but shortcuts an aspect of their build it's a let down.

I was bringing this topic up to see if their were other like minded people in the hobby. Unfortunately it looks like most are more than willing to accept and defend mediocrity in the face of quality. Sadly this is not just prevalent in the hobby but a lot of aspects of society but that is a topic for a different place.

Call it what you want JM you are creating a standard of what should be expected from a high profile builder. When people point this out then you dragout the argument that we are defending mediocrity.

As others have pointed out if you think that this is such an important issue then make yourself a high profile builder and be the example you expect.

[J Morrison]

So, you don't want the glory or fame. You just want to criticize those that have it. Classic. Post up one of your models and show everyone how it should be done. It's obvious that you think you can build better than the person or persons that you're criticizing. So, show us what you can do. Maybe you can teach us mediocre builders a few things. Maybe if you had the courage to throw some names out as to who you think is lazy and unprofessional, we might understand your position a little better.

I have said REPEATEDLY this thread is NOT about my build quality or most other people on the board! It's about well established builders who have proven they can do better but fall short in the final execution of the build.

In my discussion with Casey about this post he suggested I NOT include names. I agreed that was the way to go. It avoids personal attacks and gives the question more validity on it's own. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out some of the people this topic could apply to.

[chunkypeanutbutter]

In the end, why does it matter?

Are you wondering why they mess up sometimes?

-divorce

-drugs

-stress

-disease

-locusts

-a terrible flood

I think we got it.

[Ace-Garageguy]

In the end, why does it matter?

Are you wondering why they mess up sometimes?

And in the end, what does anybody gain from saying "builder X does wonderful work BUT did you see how wrong he got one particular aspect of so-and-so? I mean, what CRAPP!!! " ?

Lead by example.

[chunkypeanutbutter]

And in the end, what does anybody gain from saying "builder X does wonderful work BUT did you see how wrong he got one particular aspect of so-and-so? I mean, what CRAPP!!! " ?

Lead by example.

Exactly.

As Sinatra said:

"That's life

And as funny as it may seem

Some people get their kicks

Stompin' on a dream"

[bobthehobbyguy]

And in the end, what does anybody gain from saying "builder X does wonderful work BUT did you see how wrong he got one particular aspect of so-and-so? I mean, what CRAPP!!! " ?

Lead by example.

AMEN

[J Morrison]

That's VERY true, but that's not how I'm reading the majority of responses to this topic. Pointing out something that could have been done better on an otherwise spectacular build is one thing, but calling that build "mediocre", "lazy" or "unprofessional" (I'm quoting terms you've used here) because of a few flaws is something else entirely.

Where are the "professional" standards for building model cars documented? I'm really curious. I know where to look them up for most of the fields I WORK in (as in vocation), but I'm completely ignorant as to where to find them relative to model-building (model-building for pleasure...not prototypes for product development, wind-tunnel work, etc.).

I'm sorry I wasnt completely clear. I'm not saying the buolders are lazy or unprofessional but taking the shortcuts they do can appear that way especially to people outside the hobby who will ask why xxxx couldn't have been done when the rest of the model is finished so well. The mediocrity comment was based more on the comments that give model companies a free pass on any errors they make.

[Ace-Garageguy]

The mediocrity comment was based more on the comments that give model companies a free pass on any errors they make.

You must not have been hanging here very long. A lot of these guys tear the manufacturers new ones for every significant flaw in new issues. Including me. Model companies SHOULD be held to some sort of "professional" standards...like getting things SCALED correctly if they're going to call them "SCALE MODELS".

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[chunkypeanutbutter]

Ah, well you see, that's the thing.

People OUTSIDE the hobby. Different!

I could boot up my Gateway and say, "Why doesn't it have an option to boot directly into TV mode?"

Not being a high-level programmer and understanding the struggles of how it works, I basically have no frame of reference.

People who aren't in the hobby wouldn't know how hard it would be to get even halfway with a well-executed model, and then make it 100% on top of that!

"You have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who walks into the middle of a movie and wonders what's going on!"

[chunkypeanutbutter]

Model companies SHOULD be held to some sort of "professional" standards...like getting things SCALED correctly if they're going to call them "SCALE MODELS".

Never says "accurate scale," however

[J Morrison]

You must not have been hanging here very long. A lot of these guys tear the manufacturers new ones for every significant flaw in new issues. Including me. Model companies SHOULD be held to some sort of "professional" standards...like getting things SCALED correctly if they're going to call them "SCALE MODELS".

I have been here for a bit and have see the ripping of new ones. I have also seen a very vocal majority beat people down for saying the manufacturers should provide more accurate products. That is the mediocrity I was referencing. Edited November 14, 2014 by J Morrison

[Ace-Garageguy]

Never says "accurate scale," however

Wow...that explains a LOT.