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J Morrison

When do you stop building for yourself & start building for the hobby?

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I can see where a person who becomes one of the "stars" of the hobby, either by contest wins, or magazine appearances, or whatever, might feel pressure to never make a mistake, if only because they know that everyone else is watching what they do. But I don't think it's fair for the rest of us to expect that person to build to any standards that we may place on them.

Most people who become role models didn't ask for the job.

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Then too, at what point does a "star" become obsessed with fame?

There's a well known figure (pun intended) in the armor building community who has national acclaim. He has countless articles, features and a book or two to his credit. He and his entourage are referred to as "trophy whores" in most IPMS circles in the South West.

He speaks to no one but his group and does not participate in any activity at the show. He (they) arrive, display their admittedly really good builds, then disappear until trophy time.

Maybe that's what trips his trigger, maybe that's "building for him", but due to his behavior we will probably never know.

I suppose we should buy the book for reference and to learn.

G

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I understand that Steven but you missed an important part of the question. When does ones "fame", for lack of a better term, in the hobby thru publications, forum content & followers, elevate one to the point that they are now the "go to" person people point out, to people outside the hobby, as an example of the best the hobby has to offer an must push themselves even more as they are now one of the faces & work of the hobby?

That's an even easier answer. I'll never know the answer to that!! I don't have the skills or the intention of becoming "famous" in the hobby. Hell, I don't even go to shows or contests. I just stay home & build! :) Steve

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Hope I die before I get old.

Oops, too late

jb

my generation - the who (sorry, inside joke)

as long as builders put their stuff out for public display, there is going to be judgment, comments and questions. both good and bad. builders have to be able to take the criticism and lookers have to have a little couth and restrain.

Edited by tubbs

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Hell, I don't even go to shows or contests. I just stay home & build! :)

Same here. :D

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You haven't answered my question in response to your opening statement. Again, why do you feel a person is compelled to increase the accuracy of his/her work based upon how much public recognition that person's work receives?

Without citing specific examples as to not single out any one specific builder it's a little harder to make the point. Some seem to get the question though. I'll try to explain a little more in detail as best I can.

When someone is a builder held in high esteem in the hobby and one of the go to people for magazine articles and such, how many times can they make the same mistake or use the excuse "I don't know about xxxx"? At a certain point shouldn't those who are at the head of the hobby learn from their mistakes when they are pointed out instead of just playing the "I build for myself card"? Shouldn't they take a little time to learn about what they don't know? You only have to learn the basics once, not before every build.

I realize after rereading my reply that might not concisely answer your question to me Casey. I hope this answer does...I think a "famous" builder has a responsibility to the hobby and fellow hobbyists to represent us in the best light possible. Thereby no longer being able to use the "I only build for myself" crutch.

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The difference is......chef's get PAID!

so do some "model builders"

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I think a "famous" builder has a responsibility to the hobby and fellow hobbyists to represent us in the best light possible.

Fair enough, but I disagree. I don't feel any builder owes anyone else anything, period. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

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I understood the question from the beginning, this same ideology pervades nearly every hobby where creativity and skill is a factor. I see it when I attend nearly any car show, whether it be a Mark Specific, British even Hot Rod show. There are rivet counters in nearly every hobby. This type of mentality both burns people out on their hobbies and creates bad feelings which eventually lead to people leaving ______________ (insert hobby).

Look at the Riddler Award competitors, until recently the builders were an ever changing group, it would drive the average person nuts to build to this level each and every car built, to ask a person to build to that level on every project is too much to even expect. That's where the personal drive and devotion to their hobby come into play, it has to be up to the builder alone not the minions.

Do individuals owe it to the hobby to knock it out of the park with every single model they build, no they don't. Why shouldn't a highly skilled builder be forced to build super detail every time they build, sometimes it might be something they choose to build to experiment with a concept of a highly detailed model.

I think we saw this in the 80's with the "Slammers" models which focused on the body and bodywork, executing the best paint the builder could pull off. These models were both criticized by some and loved by others, from what I remember they started out as design concepts which were entered in contests. From what I recall there were people as upset with this type of model as a village chasing Frankenstein with garden tools!

Let people build what and how they want to build, if it bothers you maybe you're the one with the issue not the builder. Only then will the hobby grow and attract new blood, acting like a bunch of inbred whiners will do nothing but drive accomplished builders as well as the prospective builders of the future away in droves.

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Time to call out the psychological-motivation police.

Maybe in an ideal world, where everyone was scrupulously honest and altruistic, and was motivated to be the best he or she could be in all facets of life, a concept like "how SHOULD a famous modeler behave" might have some actual validity.

But we're dealing with humans, only partially evolved sentient creatures, who are a long long way from being "ideal".

Was the "famous" builder's motivation actually to BECOME FAMOUS, or did he just do work that was consistently better than the norm, and so became famous by default, while still, in reality, "building for himself"?

Who knows but his shrink...assuming he has one, and tells the truth?

I've learned from a long long time here that expecting anyone to behave as I might think they "should" is an exercise in pointless futility.

Focus on doing the best work YOU want to do, and if leading by example is important to you, YOU DO IT.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

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I just read through all of this thread and my first impression is that a lot of you guys have an amazing talent for not understanding the original question and jumping all over the OP for completely invalid reasons.

That is a perfectly valid question. Why did so many of you jump in with inane comments that have nothing to do with the question asked? Why are so many of you so eager to start flame throwing? Why do so many of you not understand the question asked and respond accordingly? Seriously... every time someone tries to have an adult conversation here, they immediately get shot down and drowned out by people who don't even understand the question being asked!

Thank you Harry. I knew going in it was a provocative question to ask and was hoping for an adult conversation about it. BTW It's my opinion only. I am NOT trying to force anyone to build a certain way or to any certain standard.

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The way I see it, Anybody who has become "famous" in the hobby wanted it that way. You don't get to be a "celebrity" in anything you do without hard work, & a person will generally not put forth the hard work necessary to become a celebrity unless they're looking for that sort of outcome. That is, unless you're Kim Kardashian or Paris Hilton. So if you find yourself A celebrity & you are upset with the situation, you have yourself to blame! This is part of the reason why, while everybody seems to be going to extremes with making sure every nut & bolt is accurately represented on a project, I content myself with building curbside kits. & when I do build something with a little more detail, I detail it enough for me & I don't give a BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH whether some one else will be "impressed" with my work. Some people want the fame, some people just want to build a nice model. I fit into the latter category. Steve

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Fair enough, but I disagree. I don't feel any builder owes anyone else anything, period. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

as long as people "publicly display" their work, the public is going to comment, and if they like it, they will want more. and if it isn't up to par with builders other stuff, the public will let him know. yes, the builder doesn't "owe" anyone anything, try to tell that to the "public viewers", they may differ. you see it everywhere in every aspect of life. opinions, everyone has one, it's all in how they use it.

Edited by tubbs

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Fair enough, but I disagree. I don't feel any builder owes anyone else anything, period. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

That is perfectly acceptable and pretty much what I was looking for in an answer. Not the passive aggressive, judgmental, name calling responses that have been the bulk of what has been given. Edited by J Morrison

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The way I see it, Anybody who has become "famous" in the hobby wanted it that way. You don't get to be a "celebrity" in anything you do without hard work, & a person will generally not put forth the hard work necessary to become a celebrity unless they're looking for that sort of outcome.

I think sweeping generalizations about motivation are "generally" not correct.

I personally try to do the best work I can, if it's model cars, real cars, or cleaning the toilet. I LIKE to look at my own work and say to MYSELF..."good job!".

That's one reason I'm so stoked to see some of the truly outstanding work displayed here. It inspires me to do my own work better. If I spot a mistake in someone else's model, that's another learning opportunity (so I won't make the same one).

NOBODY has to have the same motivation to do ANYTHING, but the ones who try hardest, FOR WHATEVER REASON, will get some recognition at some point.

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You can have your cake and eat it, too. I do build for contests (ask Rich Manson) and I also build stuff for my shelves, just for the sake of building. Sometimes, the contest builds can get to be like work; they can be time-consuming and at times, seem to be more trouble than they're worth. For example, my current '68 Road Runner project has been in the works, on-and-off, for almost two years. I have 54 detail images on my phone alone (and I have deleted some); I have many more images on our home laptop, as well as many handwritten pages of notes and a good supply of Mopar magazines for that build. But, waiting on the same shelves is a relatively box-stock '40 Ford and a P-38 with warp nacelles in lieu of the booms. There are times when I feel that if the previous build was good, then the next should be better, so it's a personal challenge- that can be applied to shelf models, too. Alas, shelf models can be entered in contests, too. However...

I build for the sake of creating scale replicas of mechanical contrivances that I enjoy, be they automotive, aircraft, armor, etc. I appreciate the art, engineering and history behind the subjects. I will never, ever be able to acquire 99.99999% of those subjects in real life, so I do the next best thing, and I can add my own personal touches whenever and however I choose. Creativity and imagination are two valuable tools for any modeler. No matter what or how I build, I will never stop building for myself.

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At a certain point shouldn't those who are at the head of the hobby learn from their mistakes when they are pointed out instead of just playing the "I build for myself card"? Shouldn't they take a little time to learn about what they don't know? You only have to learn the basics once, not before every build.

Sorry man. If time has taught me anything, our expectations of people will continuously be unrealized. Having said that, there are very few people at the top of this hobby that aren't proficient at what they are doing. I suspect from your post that a person has irked you more than once with some technical/mechanical issue. Maybe at contests. People will always do what works for them, whether it's cutting off the tops of tires to get the car lower, or bringing the same models to contest over and over.

As Bill said above, "But we're dealing with humans, only partially evolved sentient creatures, who are a long long way from being "ideal".

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I build for the sake of creating scale replicas of mechanical contrivances that I enjoy, be they automotive, aircraft, armor, etc. I appreciate the art, engineering and history behind the subjects. I will never, ever be able to acquire 99.99999% of those subjects in real life, so I do the next best thing, and I can add my own personal touches whenever and however I choose. Creativity and imagination are two valuable tools for any modeler. No matter what or how I build, I will never stop building for myself.

AMEN BROTHER.

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I build for myself probably 90% of the time, the other 10% being replicas for friends. I probably would never had gotten back into the hobby had I not found this forum. I don't do shows or contest, so other than you guys and a few friends, no one ever sees my stuff. That being said, this place pushes me to do a lot of detailing that I didn't do years ago. I used to love to build drag cars, but when I look now at the detailing and the time put into a lot of drag car builds here, well mine are now in boxes in the closet! I will always build for myself, but the perfectionist on this forum HAVE made me try and up my skill level. If you follow this forum, it pushes u to do better,which now makes me think twice now about posting builds! I'm in this hobby for fun and when I begin to see it as work, i'll quit once again. Been busy working on a 1;1 "35 Chevy rat rod, decal on the back glass says (I didn't build this to meet your approval, I built it because it met mine!) That's the way a HOBBY should always be! I'll be quiet now.....

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Do builders get paid for having their models displayed in magazines?

Don't know how other mags do it, but we have a set "per page" payment for material that we specifically ask for (if we contact the person and ask them to contribute content). Any material that people send in on their own is assumed to be "contributed" to the magazine, and if used, no payment is made.

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I understood the question from the beginning...

Do individuals owe it to the hobby to knock it out of the park with every single model they build, no they don't. Why shouldn't a highly skilled builder be forced to build super detail every time they build...

If that is what you thought my question was then you didn't understand it as much as you thought you did. I'm not saying they have to super detail every build. I'm saying if they are going to add detail at least take the time to make sure it is correct and well done. If they are going to open a panel make sure it fits right, opens & closes correctly etc. If they add parts make sure they are in scale and installed correctly. An example NOT on a top builders model but helps illustrateumy point. I've seen a model with a throttle return spring that was very oversized and mounted vertically instead of horizontally. Things like that are what I'm commenting about.

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So maybe instead of getting hung up on those "glaring" faults and itching to be negative, try looking from a positive perspective. Was the model interesting subject matter? Does it faithfully,if not accurately, leave the overall impression it was intended to leave? Find one thing done "right" on the model and complement that aspect.

Anyone can find fault in every model built, its not hard. If you don't like what you see in magazine spreads and posted on forums, build better (in your opinion) stuff and submit it.

"If you can't say sumpin' nice, don't say nuttin' at all." tumblr_mc1ukrFBiB1r9h87vo1_500.gif wouldn't be much on the board. :huh:

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What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? I mean, I get you're saying people should do it right, but are you just gum-flapping and not acting on it?

If someone opens a panel wrong, are you just going to tell him it's wrong, or or you going to help him gel better and then, as a result, get your wish?

I didn't really wanna get involved in a flame topic, but I had to ask you.

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Don't know how other mags do it, but we have a set "per page" payment for material that we specifically ask for (if we contact the person and ask them to contribute content). Any material that people send in on their own is assumed to be "contributed" to the magazine, and if used, no payment is made.

Armed with this information, I will add my opinion.

If the builder was paid, then yes the standard of what they build for submission should be of a certain level. If the builder was not paid, who am I or anyone else for that matter to say what level of accuracy or skill should be achieved?

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