New kits with flaws.

[W-409]

Yes, the a Revell 70 AAR Cuda was inexcusable, but the grille on the 67 Camaro is easily fixed, and 1/4" difference in length? Not worth complaining about.

I'm with Lee here. Except that I can't see a real problem with that AAR Barracuda, but otherwise I think the same way. If these new kits were the same quality as Palmers were back in the day, I'd understand the amount of complaining that can be seen on these forums. Now I can't. But of course every builder has different goals and someone might want the body to be exactly right when taking all of the measurements and that kind of fancy stuff. To me it's fine if it looks right to my eye, and I think every new model kit does just that.

[keyser]

I give up. All new kits are perfect, and if a 60 year old car that's not correct is OK, despite .003 sec google to show you, or anyone who knows them says it looks wrong, knock yourselves out. You deserve the dreck some are putting out.

Mr. Metzger, you guys are doing a great job. You fixed the Hudson rear axle issue, and helped people fix it before you fixed it. Doubt anyone noticed here, that'd be complaining unnecessarily.

Mediocrity is NOT acceptable. Like several of us have pointed out, get big stuff right. costs far less to do it right first time, than revisions. Chinese artisans have never bloody seen a Cuda, or LX Mustang, or Hudson, or any western car for that matter. I'd guess recognizing that, sending a dumpload of pics off net as well as a well measured and photo documented 1:1 seems important. Chinese don't have Google, it's against the law. But they have BAIDU, and we can send pics.

But all that is irrelevant to the tender-eared sycophants that enjoy ignoring lazy work, or fixing other people's lousy efforts. Wilted lettuce, hair in their burgers, and 1/2 of the 30 page Mustang thread as apologists. Pearls amongst....

[StevenGuthmiller]

I think a lot of people are getting pretty worked up about a model kit! really? this is what people lose sleep over at night? You've never bought anything else that proved to be a disappointment? I built a house in 2001 that now needs every major appliance & system replaced from the furnace & water heater to the dishwasher & refrigerator. Let's talk about who's really passing off their junk on us in this country. I can live with a model kit with an "off" body line, how about somebody produce a furnace that lasts more than 10 years!!! Steve

[thatz4u]

what Steve said. times 2

[Cliff Dagger]

Have you tried to get into Wal-Mart ?( I'm not trying to say it like a smartass) , but really try to get your kits on Wal-Mart Shelves?

[sjordan2]

I think a lot of people are getting pretty worked up about a model kit! really? this is what people lose sleep over at night? You've never bought anything else that proved to be a disappointment? I built a house in 2001 that now needs every major appliance & system replaced from the furnace & water heater to the dishwasher & refrigerator. Let's talk about who's really passing off their junk on us in this country. I can live with a model kit with an "off" body line, how about somebody produce a furnace that lasts more than 10 years!!! Steve

I understand where ACE is coming from but like he has said this is not a Moebius issue so it needs to be posted elsewear on the forum.

Why would a post that contains content praising the upside of Moebius belong on another place on the forum, while it merely brings up a positive in relation to the thread subject? This is about more than Moebius.

I don't buy typical 1/24-25 kits in general, but I must say that my Revell 1962 Corvette, a new issue, should NEVER have had a major mold seam running across the nose slightly above the corvette chrome script -- hard to correct easily, and not for inexperienced modelers.

[keyser]

If furnaces lasted longer than 10 years, would companies make a profit on repeat business? Or anything else for that matter? Duty cycle for most appliances and HVAC is closer to 7-10 years, you got 13y. Water heaters last 5-6 tops. You're lucky.

And if you have a quality niche product, do you WANT it in Walmart? So you can get your wholesale beak ripped and have compromising requests made by people that only care about what they sell today? Perfect venue for the "perfect" kits y'all love, and it'll save the horrible effort of pullng up a coupon for 40% on your phone (actually, flip phones don't show coupons, so clip away).

Edited December 21, 2014 by keyser

[Casey]

Have you tried to get into Wal-Mart ?( I'm not trying to say it like a smartass) , but really try to get your kits on Wal-Mart Shelves?

I don't think Moebius is going after the low-hanging fruit, thank goodness. Those $7.99 checkerboard kits didn't do anyone any favors, except the cheapskates for whom price is the most important consideration when buying a kit.

As Dave mentioned, the cost of production is going up. If anyone's noticed the prices at most online retailers, Round2's most recent round of kits are their highest priced group compared to previous batches. If the cost of getting a roofline or the leading edge of a fender correct is an additional $10/kit retail price, I'm all for it. I think Trumpeter tried this angle, but failed miserably in the accuracy department, so I'd love to see Moebius give it a try, even if it's just one kit on a trial basis.

[The Junkman]

Have you tried to get into Wal-Mart ?( I'm not trying to say it like a smartass) , but really try to get your kits on Wal-Mart Shelves?

Oh, I think thats a direction Mobius should be REAL careful about. I am also on a board with a guy who was a player in a company called 21st Century Toys who put out pre-painted 1:18 and 1:32 scale fighter planes/kits. Great reviews. Walmart then froze them out when they tried expanding to other store chains (about 2007). Just about killed the company. Dealing with WM is truly like making a deal with the devil.

[keyser]

Casey, they don't scream about accuracy, but they squeal like a murder victim if the kit price is $.005 more. With coupon, gift card, and shuttle bus to get it.

Low hanging fruit indeed. Customer more than product.

Edited December 21, 2014 by keyser

[Lunajammer]

Dave, Anything you post to this forum I consider a must-read. Your posts are always insightful, informative and appreciated. Thanks for the info, which I know took you a while to write for us.

[MrObsessive]

Dave, Anything you post to this forum I consider a must-read. Your posts are always insightful, informative and appreciated. Thanks for the info, which I know took you a while to write for us.

What he said........

[StevenGuthmiller]

If furnaces lasted longer than 10 years, would companies make a profit on repeat business? Or anything else for that matter? Duty cycle for most appliances and HVAC is closer to 7-10 years, you got 13y. Water heaters last 5-6 tops. You're lucky.

And if you have a quality niche product, do you WANT it in Walmart? So you can get your wholesale beak ripped and have compromising requests made by people that only care about what they sell today? Perfect venue for the "perfect" kits y'all love, and it'll save the horrible effort of pullng up a coupon for 40% on your phone (actually, flip phones don't show coupons, so clip away).

That's the problem! The house I lived in prior to this had a ten year old furnace & water heater in it when I moved in. Lived there 11 years & never touched either one. The washer & dryer that my wife & I purchased in 1987 is the only thing left in our new house that works properly!! I've had repairmen in my house cleaning or repairing the furnace and/or water heater a minimum of 12 times in the past 3 years. It's all garbage under the guise of progress. All of these companies managed for decades when they used to produce products that lasted 20 or more years! So, while some of these model companies may give us an occasional sloppy kit, which I assume is nothing more than an over-site, everybody else blatantly rips us off & tries to convince us it's because their products are greatly improved from the past! What a load of craaap!!! Steve

[Drag Monster]

Wow !! Even this thread has turned into a whining session! We are modelers people, if you can build them you should be able to fix them. With the customer base getting too old or dying off & next to zero new blood coming into the hobby be thankful for any new tooling you get. What I would suggest if you think you can do better, try scratch building. I for one welcome any new subject that is issued. Thanks Dave for taking the time To explain the process.

[Gary66]

I don't agree about the Checkerboard kits at Wal-Mart. They were a boon to us short track and vintage stock car builders. I bought between 15 and 20 each of the 57 Chevy, 57 Ford, and 69 Torino, plus multiples of some of the others . Did price drive those purchases? You bet. I see those same kits showing up at shows and swap meets and they are priced the same as the standard/non checker boxed versions of the same thing. Nothing wrong with that, I'm all for free enterprise. But I don't think it's fair to label someone a cheapskate or a hobby killer for taking advantage of what is at the time a good deal.

[keyser]

That's the problem! The house I lived in prior to this had a ten year old furnace & water heater in it when I moved in. Lived there 11 years & never touched either one. The washer & dryer that my wife & I purchased in 1987 is the only thing left in our new house that works properly!! I've had repairmen in my house cleaning or repairing the furnace and/or water heater a minimum of 12 times in the past 3 years. It's all garbage under the guise of progress. All of these companies managed for decades when they used to produce products that lasted 20 or more years! So, while some of these model companies may give us an occasional sloppy kit, which I assume is nothing more than an over-site, everybody else blatantly rips us off & tries to convince us it's because their products are greatly improved from the past! What a load of craaap!!!

When China, Korea, India sell at $.30, with duty cycles of 4-5y, that anyone will survive with never-ending HVAC/appliances/whatever? Really?

You think people who complain about gas prices and $2 increase in model prices will pay for quality not price? You going to pop for high end HVAC for 15k, or get something for 10k? It's the way the market is, the economy. There is NO customer loyalty. There are NO promises, and you take what you get. Rebrand/minor tweaks, and it's a NEW!! Improved!! product. Walmart, Home Depot, etc. all sell on price, make huge profits.

You're not getting ripped off. That's how companies have to do business to SURVIVE. Welcome to the 21st century.

Wow !! Even this thread has turned into a whining session! We are modelers people, if you can build them you should be able to fix them. With the customer base getting too old or dying off & next to zero new blood coming into the hobby be thankful for any new tooling you get. What I would suggest if you think you can do better, try scratch building. I for one welcome any new subject that is issued. Thanks Dave for taking the time To explain the process.

I can fix kits. I can scratchbuild.

I can make a sandwich too. I don't buy food at a restaurant to make my own sandwich.

I don't buy a kit if I want to scratchbuild, or fix stuff THAT SHOULD BE CORRECT.

Someone's frigging JOB was to see it was correct. Repeatedly, in many different kits. Not rocket science.

How hard is it to understand that?

[Ace-Garageguy]

I can fix kits. I can scratchbuild.

I can make a sandwich too. I don't buy food at a restaurant to make my own sandwich.

I don't buy a kit if I want to scratchbuild, or fix stuff THAT SHOULD BE CORRECT.

Someone's frigging JOB was to see it was correct. Repeatedly, in many different kits. Not rocket science.

How hard is it to understand that?

Exactly.

[Tom Geiger]

Wow !! Even this thread has turned into a whining session!

I was going to post in this thread, and after I saw how some guys behave I just walked away. And we wonder why this board has that reputation!

Dave, thanks for trying to educate the board, but as you said in your closing, there will still be gripers and complainers. There are those on the board that have no professional project management experience, and don't understand the process and constraints any program has to work within. Those of us who do are amazed at what you accomplish within those parameters.

Guys, note that Dave is personally the project manager on TWENTY of these projects at the same time. Many of you would have issues building more than one model at a time, never mind run the program that creates the product. And as Tim said, it's amazing that engineers in China, who have never seen these cars in person, get these so right. If we were in the days of 500,000 kit runs, Moebius could ship a 1:1 of the car to China and let them at it. Then we'd get that near perfect model! You can do anything with no constraints on time, people, resources and cash, but unfortunately that's not the real world.

Now go back and read Dave's first post and absorb it. He tells it like it is.

[keyser]

Tom, I pointed out Mr. Metzger (I don't know him, I respect him, and his company is above repute, so I'm showing respect using proper name) is not the problem, and discussed the issue of original tooling accuracy.

Mr. M pointed out costs and complexity, as I'm well aware, of modifying test shots.

Measure twice, cut once seems to be operative phrase, as with any effort. And at this point, you don't need to send 1:1. Just a thumb drive full of reference photos, some Baidu links, and have decent Mandarin/English translation fāngyán (方言, literally "place speech")

So what has anyone said, myself, Bill (Ace-garage), or otherwise that would keep you from posting? Not argumentative, just baffled why Mr. M listens to input, and fixes issues, while that is NOT the case elsewhere. I've read and agree with his post. Even my old friend Art A basically said +1.

I won't try to make people see the emperors clothes/lack thereof, and as far as I'm concerned, new kits on this board are without original sin. Manna from above. The fact I'm celebrating Hannukah probably negates most of that, but hey.

Happy holidays to you, Art, Mr. M, Tim B, and anyone else that reads the stuff I type.

[StevenGuthmiller]

When China, Korea, India sell at $.30, with duty cycles of 4-5y, that anyone will survive with never-ending HVAC/appliances/whatever? Really?

You think people who complain about gas prices and $2 increase in model prices will pay for quality not price? You going to pop for high end HVAC for 15k, or get something for 10k? It's the way the market is, the economy. There is NO customer loyalty. There are NO promises, and you take what you get. Rebrand/minor tweaks, and it's a NEW!! Improved!! product. Walmart, Home Depot, etc. all sell on price, make huge profits.

You're not getting ripped off. That's how companies have to do business to SURVIVE. Welcome to the 21st century.

I can fix kits. I can scratchbuild.

I can make a sandwich too. I don't buy food at a restaurant to make my own sandwich.

I don't buy a kit if I want to scratchbuild, or fix stuff THAT SHOULD BE CORRECT.

Someone's frigging JOB was to see it was correct. Repeatedly, in many different kits. Not rocket science.

How hard is it to understand that?

Not buying it! If Honda can make a car that lasts me for 15 years & goes for nearly 300,000 miles, why can't Bryant make something that keeps my house warm, for 3 months out of the year, for 8 years? They can. They've done it in the past! The cars have greatly improved in reliability & longevity over the years & everything else has only gotten worse. Explanation? Steve

[martinfan5]

I can fix kits. I can scratchbuild.

I can make a sandwich too. I don't buy food at a restaurant to make my own sandwich.

I don't buy a kit if I want to scratchbuild, or fix stuff THAT SHOULD BE CORRECT.

Someone's frigging JOB was to see it was correct. Repeatedly, in many different kits. Not rocket science.

How hard is it to understand that?

Agreed

[bigbluesd]

I don't think Moebius is going after the low-hanging fruit, thank goodness. Those $7.99 checkerboard kits didn't do anyone any favors, except the cheapskates for whom price is the most important consideration when buying a kit.

At the risk of straying off topic, what are checkerboard kits?

[mikemodeler]

Thanks Dave for clearing up a few misconceptions about kit development and the processes involved dealing internationally with manufacturing. I was aware of some of what you mentioned but now have a new found appreciation for any new kit from any kit company.

For those that continue to speculate on how easy it should be to get a kit more accurate, go back and re-read Dave's post. It isn't because the kit companies don't care about the final product, it's about profitability and survival. And while there are those that will argue that a company would be more profitable if it produced more accurate kits, keep in mind that to achieve perceived perfection, it could cause the company to go out of business!

If producing new kits was cheap or easy, don't you think Round 2 would be cranking out new stuff instead of re-releases?

Like many here, model car building is a hobby of mine and while I like my kits to be accurate, I am accepting of some imperfections in exchange for a new offering.

[Fabrux]

At the risk of straying off topic, what are checkerboard kits?

In the early '00s AMT sold kits through Walmart. There were a couple different box art styles that were exclusive to the store, one of them being individual kits that had a built-up model on the box top with a checkerboard background and a road graphic off to one side. The other style was built-up models with some sort of cityscape in the background; these were usually part of a 3- or 4-kit bundle.

[Longbox55]

You have to watch out with some of those kits, especially those that are reissues of the older 3 in 1 kits. Most of those will only show the stock version on the box, and the kit was decontented to only have the stock parts. Good examples, the '55 Nomad and the old tool '57 Chevy. Both had all of the custom parts removed for that release. I have also seen the decontented versions in regular hobby shop issue boxes, too.