The slippery slope of banning donk wheels

[Erik Smith]

Tha article is about banning the conversion of street vehicles to race only - hence to control or limits on emission controls. It has no implications, as written, for street vehicles that are already regulated for emissions. 

This has nothing to do with safety. The EPA doesn't regulate that. They regulate the emissions and that is what they are doing here. You can still have a street car, subject to regular emission standards, and modify within those rules. 

[Muncie]

so... is SEMA crying wolf?  That's usually not their style but this press release lacks substantial information and doesn't back up the headline with very many details.  It would have been helpful to cite a reference to the Federal Register numbers where the text of the proposed regulation could be found.

[Ace-Garageguy]

  It would have been helpful to cite a reference to the Federal Register numbers where the text of the proposed regulation could be found.

It's a tacked on rider, under this pending proposal...  “Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Fuel Efficiency Standards for Medium- & Heavy-Duty Engines-Phase 2".

EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does not allow any person to disable, remove, or render inoperative (i.e., tamper with) emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition. An existing provision in 40 CFR 1068.235 provides an exemption for nonroad engines converted for competition use. This provision reflects the explicit exclusion of engines used solely for competition from the CAA definition of ‘‘nonroad engine’’.

SIGN THE PETITION TO STOP THIS > CLICK HERE:     https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/tell-epa-withdraw-its-proposal-prohibit-conversion-vehicles-racecars-0

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's an article that explains this in further detail. If you care about personal liberty in general, and the future of racing in this country in particular, READ IT.

http://jalopnik.com/the-epas-crackdown-on-race-cars-explained-1758111546

[JTalmage]

Signed the petition

[mike 51]

Yep it's the end of "personal liberty"....and auto racing, if not life itself!

Just ask a disinterested lobbyist. organization.... 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by mike 51

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yep it's the end of "personal liberty"....and auto racing, if not life itself!

Just ask a disinterested lobbyist. organization.... 

Do you have anything of any relevance to add, or only sarcastic remarks about personal liberty?

Apparently freedom doesn't mean much to you. It does to me, and I'm glad an organization like SEMA is wading through countless pages of documents, finding stuff like this, and is making this provision public BEFORE it's passed into law and becomes almost impossible to remove.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[chunkypeanutbutter]

Signed and shared. They'd better think of the drastic effects on the American economy if they pass this into law.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Also, I think those of us who care about this should give Frank Rizzo (Lownslow) our sincere thanks for bringing it to our attention on this forum.

The more people who know about it, the less chance it has of becoming law.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Muncie]

Bill, thanks, that helps, I can search the Federal Register with those numbers.  yeah, it's going to take a couple cups of coffee

still wondering about SEMA - it's good that they have responded to the EPA with comments on the proposed rule-making - they could advise us citizens to become informed and also send a response to the EPA, but you have to read the proposal in  the Federal Register know how to make a comment to the EPA - it's part of the rule-making process to create an EPA regulation. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Bill, thanks, that helps, I can search the Federal Register with those numbers.  yeah, it's going to take a couple cups of coffee

still wondering about SEMA - it's good that they have responded to the EPA with comments on the proposed rule-making - they could advise us citizens to become informed and also send a response to the EPA, but you have to read the proposal in  the Federal Register know how to make a comment to the EPA - it's part of the rule-making process to create an EPA regulation. 

I got it. I'll post the link to the relevant page and paragraph in a couple minutes.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's the document. Scroll down to page 40,539. The relevant provision is in the lower RH corner of the page.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-07-13/pdf/2015-15500.pdf

Here is the text, copied from the original document...

 EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does not allow any person to disable, remove, or render inoperative (i.e., tamper with) emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition. An existing provision in 40 CFR 1068.235 provides an exemption for nonroad engines converted for competition use. This provision reflects the explicit exclusion of engines used solely for competition from the CAA definition of ‘‘nonroad engine’’. The proposed amendment clarifies that this part 1068 exemption does not apply for motor vehicles. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

More info, so you don't have to click...

From SEMA:

Basically, the EPA wants to make clear that an exemption for turning nonroad vehicles (and engines) into competitive vehicles does not apply to your street car, even if it’s a track-only car...

...McDonald said the EPA confirmed as much to his association too during a meeting on Jan. 20 with the agency’s Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.“All I can tell you is we went there with the intent of confirming whether (the EPA sought) to prohibit the conversion of certified vehicles into race cars,” he said. “They confirmed that.”

 

[Greg Myers]

Goes on forever, first one way , then the other.  

[iamsuperdan]

The kids call that "stanced." It was a trend in the VW scene a few years ago. Almost as silly as donks.

Personally, I think the entire aftermarket community needs a little more regulation. Prevents unsafe cars from staying on the road and puts the backyard shops out of business. Hopefully. Look to Germany for an example. Huge aftermarket scene, pretty much everything safe and clean. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Goes on forever, first one way , then the other.  

Yeah Greg, but this isn't about stupid-cambered tuners or stupid-high donks.

It's specifically about making ALL vehicles, whether race-only or not, conform to emissions regs for the vehicle as-delivered from the factory. So anyone who builds a slalom track-only car from an old Miata, or a track-only drifter from an Asian import, or Mustang specifically to drag race, or anything else to race EVEN IF IT'S NEVER DRIVEN ON THE STREET is going to be SOL if this passes.

Cars like that, in any purely-for-competition configuration will be forced to retain FULL emissions equipment applicable to the car when it was manufactured, including original computer programming and catalysts.

[Muncie]

thanks Bill - saved me some time looking - NHTSA is involved as well - kind of going through it now - just a few more pages to go.... 

for those thinking about sending a comment to the EPA and NHTSA, the instructions are in the first couple of pages - shouldn't have to tell anybody here that calling the EPA idiots in your comments to them is not helpful, the EPA and their staff that read the comments are people too - keep it intelligent and to the facts - perhaps the best comment and all you need is that you support SEMA and the comments that they submitted about the proposed regulation.  That kind of comment gets noticed - especially if significant numbers can be generated.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Muncie

[iamsuperdan]

 

Cars like that, in any purely-for-competition configuration will be forced to retain FULL emissions equipment applicable to the car when it was manufactured, including original computer programming and catalysts.

So to play devil's advocate, why would this be a bad thing? If all drivers/cars/race teams have to retain emissions equipment, then it's still a level playing field.

Even though I have tracked my cars, and will continue to do so, I'm still concerned about the environment, and fuel economy. Why not try to maximize raceday fun, and be as responsible as possible to emissions and economy?

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

 

So to play devil's advocate, why would this be a bad thing? If all drivers/cars/race teams have to retain emissions equipment, then it's still a level playing field.

Even though I have tracked my cars, and will continue to do so, I'm still concerned about the environment, and fuel economy. Why not try to maximize raceday fun, and be as responsible as possible to emissions and economy?

I have been actively involved with alt-fuels and low-impact vehicles for decades, and for the billions and billions of tax dollars that have been poured into cleaning things up, the results, from my own perspective, just aren't that impressive.

I personally feel that the environmental impact of racing is so insignificantly small as to be left alone. Period.

I'm getting tired (actually, I have been tired of it for a long time) of the mommy-state trying to regulate EVERYTHING..."for our own good"...and cut the balls off of anyone who still has any.

I see this as just another step on the road to the slow but eventual total erosion of ANY personal freedoms we have.

The millions of unnecessarily heavy SUVs cruising the highways, being used for one-person commutes primarily, are a MASSIVE contributor to the emissions and greenhouse gasses EPA seeks to regulate (just by their sheer numbers and weight)...but they're mainstream, non-threatening, testosterone-free, quiet, and boring...so they're not a target.

As far as race-cars having emissions equipment making for a level playing field...well, that's why you have spec-racer classes. Everyone runs pretty much identical equipment so, supposedly, winning comes down to driver skill. 

Yeah, there's some good, close racing with spec-cars or factory-stock, but it just ain't like watching something like this, where mechanical innovation and tuning were a significant part of the equation.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

If this rule in passed into law, things like this will be completely illegal too. Why is that a good thing?

Edited February 11, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Personally, I think the entire aftermarket community needs a little more regulation. Prevents unsafe cars from staying on the road and puts the backyard shops out of business. Hopefully. Look to Germany for an example. Huge aftermarket scene, pretty much everything safe and clean. 

No doubt there's some stupid-unsafe stuff on the roads, but it's not primarily the fault of the aftermarket manufacturers. SEMA itself tries to get its membership onboard with good engineering and quality-control practices.

And the problem I have with "puts the backyard shops out of business" is that legends in like Stu Hilborn, Vic Edelbrock and Mickey Thompson started out of "backyard shops". When you stamp out the freedom to innovate and possibly start a commercially viable industry (and God knows, this country needs SOMETHING that's not offshore sourced), you're crushing the very things that made this country what it is (or...ummm...was).

[iamsuperdan]

 

And the problem I have with "puts the backyard shops out of business" is that legends in like Stu Hilborn, Vic Edelbrock and Mickey Thompson started out of "backyard shops". When you stamp out the freedom to innovate and possibly start a commercially viable industry (and God knows, this country needs SOMETHING that's not offshore sourced), you're crushing the very things that made this country what it is (or...ummm...was).

Big difference though between guys like Edelbrock, who actually know what they're doing, and have experience and mechanical knowledge; and the guys who are hacking stuff together over beers on a weekend. The guys worth their salt, who know what they're doing should be able to ride out any regulatory storm that may appear. Bubba with his welder will hopefully give up and go back to making a still or something.

I think you're right, in the whole scheme of things, racing represents a very small percentage of emissions or other things that concern the EPA. Doesn't mean racing should be exempt from the same rules. Spec-racing wouldn't suffer if cars were required to run a more emissions friendly exhaust system or whatever. As you said, level playing field and all that. As for something like a Trans Am series; every form of semi-pro or professional racing already has regulations about safety and horsepower and a myriad of other things. I hardly think telling teams to run cats on the cars will completely destroy the series or destroy the competition.

 

I know in the spec-Boxster class in NASA, the only mention of emissions is in section 7.1C where it states: "The OEM exhaust manifold must be used. Any exhaust system aft of the stock manifold may be used. All emission related devices may be removed or disabled. Catalytic converters may be removed." So if you were to amend those sentences to read that exhaust systems must retain catalytic converters and meet stock emissions requirements, how would that negatively impact the series?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Frankly, I don't get too involved in one-make series or spec-racers. They're the ones I usually snooze through, and they're hardly the spectator money-draws that allow racing to remain viable. It's race-cars as spectacle that insures the sponsorship money that pays the bills.

Nobody's going to pay to go see a bunch of Priuses whoosh around a track, and nobody's going to pay (nobody I know, anyway) to see a bunch of showroom-stockers duke it out if that's the only race on the program.

A no-tampering with emissions-equipment rule means YOU CAN'T TOUCH THE COMPUTER, INJECTION SYSTEM, OR DO ANY TUNING WHATSOEVER. PERIOD.

Cars like the Corvettes that won class at Daytona recently would be banned forever, as well as all the cars they beat.

If that doesn't "negatively impact" racing in your mind...well, we see things a little differently.

Again, motor-racing has so little environmental impact, it's negligible. The cooking fires at Daytona from the campers probably produced more pollution, by several orders of magnitude, than the race cars did.

Of course, I guess if the mommy-state were to pass a law banning anything other than out-of-the-box model cars to be built, the majority wouldn't care.

But it would ruin the hobby for guys like me.

[iamsuperdan]

Those cars that run the American LeMans series though are unserialized racecars. Not production cars that have been converted. Would that not mean they are exempt fro mthese proposed regulations?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Those cars that run the American LeMans series though are unserialized racecars. Not production cars that have been converted. Would that not mean they are exempt fro mthese proposed regulations?

OK, let's go with that for the time being, even though the cars in that series are recognizably production-car based.  For now, a privateer without factory backing or a massive budget could conceivably build a reasonably competitive car from a production-car, serial-numbered platform. Under the proposed rules, he couldn't do it.

EDIT: I'm not entirely current on the ALMS rules, but this is a fairly recent overview. You'll see that some of the cars ARE in fact production-based. From wikipee:

"The American Le Mans Series used essentially the same rules as the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Like the 24 Hours of Le Mans, there were 3 primary classes, though there were 2 extra "Challenge classes" using standardized cars. Purpose-built race cars with closed fenders competed in the Prototype classes P1, P2, and P-Challenge) (PC) and modified production sports cars competed in the Grand Touring classes GT (GTE-Pro and GTE-Am combined, formerly GT2) along with GT-Challenge or GTC.

The two "Challenge" classes were formula-based, and were designed for privateers or rookies to have an easier time entering the series. The Challenge classes used the Oreca FLM09 (P) and the Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (GT), though there were reports that the ACO would open the Challenge class to other manufacturers in 2013 or later."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two groups of vehicle competition in SCCA would likewise be wiped out, with the exception of pre-emissions cars still being able to run production classifications.

PRODUCTION

Series produced cars, which are allowed a range of performance modifications while retaining their original design, structure and drive layout. There is no age limit, such as Showroom Stock, so Production includes many cars as old as 50 years and as new as current body styles. The three performance potential based classes include: E Production (EP), F Production (FP) and H Production (HP).

EP is the fastest of the Production classes with HP running the slowest in the category. Several cars in the Production classes can be run in more than one class, just by changing the engine between races. The ease of engine changes allows many Production drivers to enter more than one class at the Runoffs each year. Cars included in Production classes come from a diverse group ranging from the MG Midget, Turner, Fiat X1/9, Alfa Romeo Spyder, Austin Healey Sprite, and Lotus Super 7 to the BMW 325, Mazda Miata, RX-7, Nissan 240, Honda Civic, Suzuki Swift GTI and Toyota MR-2.

SUPER TOURING®

Super Touring® features late-model production-based vehicles with a series of modifications to their drivelines and bodywork. The intent of the rules allows World Challenge cars to compete in Club Racing with minimal modifications as well as new cars to be built to the same spec as well. Forced induction may be added to some models and engine swaps are permitted. No model years older than 1985 will be permitted. The STU (World Challenge® Touring Car based) are mid-level performance cars of 3.2 liters and under. STL is a small bore tuner class for cars of 2.0 liters and under. The competitiveness of any given car is not guaranteed.

We simply DON'T need the government having ANYTHING to do with racing, because once the camel's nose is in the tent, the rest of the camel is sure to follow.

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy