Knock off kits..common?

[iamsuperdan]

So last summer I found myself a kit of a Mercedes 600SEL. It's a very obvious copy of the same Tamiya kit, just with all Tamiya logos removed and Lee logos inserted. Even on the instructions...except for the recommended paint section. It's obviously not Tamiya quality, but looks to be a good kit.

Fast forward to yesterday. I was at an antique sale, and picked up another Mercedes 600SEL kit for $10. THought it was the Tamiya original. Whoops!

This one is an even better knockoff, this time from HKMiya. At a glance, the logo even looks like Tamiya.

So now I have two versions of the same kit, from two manufacturers, and I have still never seen an original Tamiya version. 

Which got me thinking...

How many companies do this?

What is the most commonly copied kit?

I wonder what else is out there?

 

Anyone else have insight into this? Or any experiences with these knockoffs?

[Daddyfink]

That is crazy! Looks like the tooling may have ended up in China or possibly done under license. 

Can't wait for their '29 and '30 Fords! LOL! 

[iamsuperdan]

I still find it bizarre that the only two knockoffs I've ever stumbled across are of the same kit!

I saw that one yesterday and thought, "Tamiya kit for $10?! Done!"

It wasn't until I got home that I noticed the reality. 

I'm still happy with it, the tooling looks pretty good, except for the glass, very hazy, may just end up tinting the windows when I build this. And I find the colour choices of the plastic...interesting. Some engine details could be better.

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by iamsuperdan

[Zoom Zoom]

No tooling ended up in China, they're simply poor knockoff copies of a Tamiya original. They are lousy kits by comparison, and $10 isn't a deal, unless you like ragged mold lines, poorly printed stickers instead of metal transfers, etc. I've seen some of these kits up close, and having built and bought the Tamiya versions, I can tell a lousy copy from the original with ease. I can find Tamiya originals for about $15, no question of value by comparison. The closeup of the engine intake? Horrible quality! The Tamiya engines in these are magnificent, they are so well molded they practically hold themselves together w/just the pins & receivers, and surface quality is perfect. Not on that lousy copy!!

There are a few Tamiya kits copied, but it's been many years ago and isn't even close to a common occurence.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Zoom Zoom

[iamsuperdan]

Just for curiosity's sake, I'm going to bump one of these up and get it on the bench next. I'm not expecting Tamiya quality, but for $10 you can't go wrong. 

And if I could find Tamiya kits for $15 around here, I'd be stockpiling!

 

[Snake45]

I know the Korean company Idea knocked off several Monogram airplanes (F4U-4, Stuka) and at least one Fujimi kit (P-51D). All of these were very inferior copies.

The Russian company ICM knocked off Tamiya's P-51D. From what I've read/heard, it's as good as the original, or almost so, and modelers happily build them without apology.

[Rob Hall]

IIRC there was a Korean or Chinese company doing knockoffs of Italeri Ferrari kits a few years ago, selling them as 'Italian Sports Cars' without reference to Ferrari.   

[Mark]

Palmer knocked off a few 1/32 sports car kits in the mid-Sixties, from various manufacturers' slot car bodies.  Later they copied a few Pyro kits, and a couple of MPC annual kits (Challenger and Corvette) and the AMT '40 Ford coupe.  Palmer never released the '40, but Lindberg did issue it many years later.

I've got a Palmer 1/32 scale '40 Ford sedan kit.  It's copied from AMT's All-Stars kit, except the body sides are separated from the hood/cowl/windshield/roof like a Pyro kit so they wouldn't have to construct a tool with slides in it.  Other than the three-piece body/hood, it's a dead ringer for the AMT kit, right down to the wheel/tire attachment.  And it's noticeably larger than the Pyro '40 Fords also.

That LEE company copied the Arii '58 Cadillac kits also.  There are the Hasegawa '65/'66 American car kits, with bodies originally cribbed from AMT, MPC, and Jo-Han kits in the mid-Sixties for use as slot car bodies.  One of the Cadillac-bodied slot cars turned up on eBay a few years ago.  Jo-Han sold a couple of bodies specifically for slot car use back in the day, even they didn't bother with a Cadillac.

Then there's the parts copying: compare the Moebius Ford pickup engine/chassis with the AMT '78 pickup, and the '61 Pontiac chassis with AMT's '62.  Lindberg's '61 Impala chassis and engine look a lot like AMT's '62 parts also.

[M1ks]

The logo on the second one is very naughty, clearly intended to look just like Tamiyas and I can't imagine they'd happily allow that.

It looked ok until the pics of the sprues, the mould quality looks terrible! Rougher even than some old AMT kits.

And that's based on building old AMT and MPC car kits that need knives, sanding blocks, putty and copious amounts of swearing to get parts to fit something like.

Hopefully it'll fit together well and at least if the bodyshell is cleanly moulded it'll look ok on the shelf, post pics or video when you build it though, I'd be interested in seeing how it goes together.

[mk11]

Didn't Palmer also copy the AMT '70 Mustang? Probably one of their best kits.

 The moeb '65 Comet chassis/engine bay are modified AMT '66 Fairlane/Comet pieces.

This also kind of brings up a point: if you know you might have to take flak for copying, why not make sure you're getting the most accurate pieces instead of 'good enough'. Why re-issue past mistakes? Kind of puts credibility at stake.

 

mike

[Mike999]

Lee also copied a bunch of Tamiya 1/35 military kits.  In some cases, right down to the box art (just like that Mercedes). 

Trumpeter is a well-respected company nowadays. But they also copied some kits in the beginning. You can still find some of those old Tamiya knock-offs in Trumpeter boxes, like the 1/35 M-60 and T-72 tanks. Their T-72 copy is famously bad.  Where Tamiya provided real mesh for the engine screens, the copies use silver adhesive stickers. The commander figure in the copy is a blob who looks like he was melted by the ray-guns in "Mars Attacks."  Adding insult to injury, Trumpeter made different T-72 versions by simply copying turrets from the early (and very inaccurate) DML/Dragon T-72 kits, and adding them to the bad Tamiya T-72 copy.

[Mark]

Didn't Palmer also copy the AMT '70 Mustang? Probably one of their best kits.

 

The PSM '70 Mustang Boss 302 (with a 428 engine!) is cribbed from various sources.  The chassis looks like an AMT '69 annual kit unit (molded-in exhaust unlike the oft-reissued MPC '69), as does most of the engine.  Palmer did create some parts though, like the trim ring/black stripe hubcap wheels that weren't in any other '70 Mustang kit. 

[iamsuperdan]

How are the Palmer kits, I found two over the weekend at the same antique show I found the above. One was a Courgar XR-7 "spoiler" and the other a Cougar convertible. Bot hstill factory sealed, and I'm assuming 1.32 scale based on box size. 

Do they build up into a decent kit?

 

As for the Merc, I'm going to throw one onto the bench tonight and will see how nicely it goes together. And yes, the detail is far below that of Tamiya, but could still make for a decent curbside.

 

 

[Mark]

How are the Palmer kits, I found two over the weekend at the same antique show I found the above. One was a Courgar XR-7 "spoiler" and the other a Cougar convertible. Bot hstill factory sealed, and I'm assuming 1.32 scale based on box size. 

Do they build up into a decent kit?

Palmer is Palmer...junk.  The "better Palmer" kits were branded "PSM", and the full line consisted of only those different versions of the Challenger, Mustang, and Corvette.

[Zoom Zoom]

IIRC there was a Korean or Chinese company doing knockoffs of Italeri Ferrari kits a few years ago, selling them as 'Italian Sports Cars' without reference to Ferrari.   

That was Academy, who are owned by the same folks as Italeri, I believe. The kits aren't knockoffs, they're just marketed to the Korean market as generic to get around Ferrari licensing which is a monster pain in the backside for just about any company outside of Tamiya and Fujimi. Notice how Revell doesn't have a single Ferrari anymore?

[Rob Hall]

That was Academy, who are owned by the same folks as Italeri, I believe. The kits aren't knockoffs, they're just marketed to the Korean market as generic to get around Ferrari licensing which is a monster pain in the backside for just about any company outside of Tamiya and Fujimi. Notice how Revell doesn't have a single Ferrari anymore?

Interesting..didn't remember the back story on those..yeah, no new Ferraris from Revell.   I'd like to see some of the new Ferraris kitted like the 812 Superfast, F12tdf, and GTC4 Lusso...

[iamsuperdan]

Palmer is Palmer...junk.  The "better Palmer" kits were branded "PSM", and the full line consisted of only those different versions of the Challenger, Mustang, and Corvette.

FYI, if you're at work, maybe be careful if you plan on googling "Cougar model."

 

[Daddyfink]

I heard Revell is currently knocking off Palmer kits! 

[peteski]

Kit sharing between companies happens all the time. One example was Testors selling Fujimi-molded kits in Testors boxes. But those aren't knockoffs - those ware real Fujimi kits reboxed.   It was done legally. What is shown in this thread is a true knockoff.  This is the first time I've seen those Mercedes knockoffs. This thread kind of reminds me of the other thread about resin casters re-casting other caster's work.

[iamsuperdan]

I think the resin guys could do a better job! I opened up the bags and had a good look at the HKMiya kit. Holy Moses. 

You wait until I post up an "on the bench" about this thing.

 

I definitely had a certain look when examining it.

[alan barton]

As a kid in the seventies I bought a Blue Beetle knockoff by Bandai. The obligatory poseable front wheels and hump in the floor for a Mabuchi motor were hideous and the grille shell lost something in the translation but as I recall the rest was OK.  My failing memory recalls they may have done the Green Hornet and Black Widow as well.

[fumi]

That was Academy, who are owned by the same folks as Italeri, I believe. The kits aren't knockoffs, they're just marketed to the Korean market as generic to get around Ferrari licensing which is a monster pain in the backside for just about any company outside of Tamiya and Fujimi. Notice how Revell doesn't have a single Ferrari anymore?

Speaking of Academy, they also started out by copying Tamiya's kits.  The 959, the M635 CSi and the Countach LP500S can still be found in their Korean lineup.

http://academy.co.kr/1p/1p_plalist.asp?pPage=2&pView=PLA0000005&pScale=

[M1ks]

I think the resin guys could do a better job! I opened up the bags and had a good look at the HKMiya kit. Holy Moses. 

You wait until I post up an "on the bench" about this thing.

 

I definitely had a certain look when examining it.

I'm curious to see if it's as bad as I imagine from the brief sprue shot, looking forward to seeing the build/on the bench

[Mike999]

Speaking of Academy, they also started out by copying Tamiya's kits.  The 959, the M635 CSi and the Countach LP500S can still be found in their Korean lineup.

http://academy.co.kr/1p/1p_plalist.asp?pPage=2&pView=PLA0000005&pScale=

Same with 1/35 Academy military kits. The Academy M-113 still has the holes in the floor and metal axle dating back to Tamiya's motorized days.  Those have been annoying builders for years.  (The first all-new, non-Tamiya based M-113 kit was just recently released by AFV Club.) Academy also knocked off several M-60 tanks, the Bradley and the M151 Mutt vehicle series, though they eventually did a new Mutt.  One version of their M-48 was mostly Tamiya-based, but had extra parts to build a Korean tank.

One of the boldest rip-offs I ever found was in a Taiwan hobby shop.  It was a kit of the Mercedes G4 six-wheel car, 1/35 scale, complete with a Hitler figure. The flimsy white box was sealed and the shop owner wouldn't let me open it for inspection.  It was cheap so I bought it.  It turned out to be a direct rip-off of the ADV/Azimut resin G4.  But where ADV had included photo-etched metal parts, this thing had them copied in resin!  Including some flimsy, paper-thin suspension parts.  Even the instruction sheet was a direct copy, with "ADV/Azimut" crudely blanked out.  The Hitler figure was also a rip-off of somebody else's work. Amazing...

[Spex84]

I've been wondering for a while now why we aren't seeing knockoffs kits for sale online...so this intrigues me.

How do they create the knockoff? If there is an obvious decline in quality, is that because of the technique they're using to duplicate the parts, or simply poorer quality plastics? Are they laser-scanning entire parts trees (flash and all) and then creating new tooling based on those scans? Or some cheaper, faster method??

I consider the Lindberg '40 Ford a knockoff of the AMT kit. It's SO close, but not identical. And that would have been done with old technology. Seems like now there would be more options for engineering imitation kits.

Looking forward to seeing some more photos of this kit...and it would be educational to see a comparison with original Tamiya parts!