Bernard Kron Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 I am looking for a high quality decal printing service that will accept bitmap images as-is, which is to say will accept them with the understanding that detail and edge quality is entirely my responsibility. If you have a good working knowledge of the difference between vector graphic images and bitmap images you will know what I'm referring to. As some of you may know, decals are an important part of my modeling style and decal design and application strategies are things about which I've developed a fairly advanced expertise. I am fully capable of preparing high resolution, high quality printer-ready bitmap art in most standardized bitmap file formats including psp, bmp and tif, as well as jpg. I have made several attempts to develop a working relationship with a vendor or fellow modeling enthusiast who has the capability to print white ink (and metallics eventually, although white is the key issue for the moment). This requires a specialized printer, and from my experiences so far, a fair amount of pre-preparation before printing. I attempted to work with one highly regarded vendor but in the end he wouldn't accept my bitmap art and finally, frankly, blew me off and simply didn't follow up after I sent him my files. From what I can tell he preferred the control over quality that drawing his final art himself in vector graphic form gave him. I also suspect that he had pre-prep issues with his Alps printer that he had solved only when making his own final art. In any case I'll never know because he ceased answering my e-mails... In two other cases I've worked with highly skilled modelers who print their own decals using Alps printers and offered to accept my art and print decals for me. In one instance it turned out they only knew how to drive their Alps from very specific vector graphic file formats, proper copies of which I couldn't supply them. In the second case, which is a current work in progress, the file format and pre-prep issues have all been solved but the white ink decals are just too transparent and "weak" to be effective over dark paint. Even applying a white decal underlayment isn't adequate. Does anyone have experience working from bitmap art (i.e. photo-manipulation programs like Photoshop) that has resulted in successful decal output, specifically including white ink over dark body colors? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bernard
Russell C Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 Are you open to being persuaded to steer away from bitmaps, though? Speaking as a former graphic artist, I can sympathize with the folks demanding vector art. I absolutely hated it when my bosses' salesmen accepted customer photos as-is that came with requests to pull impossible stunts with them. Vector line artwork is exponentially easier to manipulate than bitmaps with hugely less effort, and the artwork file sizes are vastly smaller than bitmaps, when you are talking about best quality sharpness. Unknown to most of those salesmen, I scanned the photos as templates to draw vector files, which made those guys look like heroes when the final product was delivered. It's a goal of mine one of these days to get out from under what I'm currently doing and have a retirement career of doing eclectic graphic arts, a good portion of which would be transforming bitmap scans and/or photos of decals into vector art. Lots of car hobbyists need this done.
Bernard Kron Posted March 3, 2018 Author Posted March 3, 2018 Thanks for comment, Russell. I aware of the benefits of vector graphics, but I'm not asking any potential vendor to go through hoops for me, or make a silk purse out of a sows ear, for that matter. Just accept my art and output it successfully. I may develop proper skills in the vector realm some day, but in the meantime I have years of P-shop experience under my belt. I can work quickly and effectively in this medium and my work is plenty good enough to generate good crisp decal output in 1/25th scale. Up to now I have printed my own, but the ability to print white (and metallics occasionally) to a clear substrate eludes me. Surely the solution ought not to be to have me learn a whole new program just to do this?
Russell C Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 I'm jealous of anyone with good actual Photoshop™, I never was especially good with it. In various cases, it is much more pretty to use its airbrush and other features to make photos way more realistic. For my own car and truck photo manipulation silliness, Photoshop™ would be much better, but I'm stuck with using my obsolete Corel 11, since my last version of Photoshop™ doesn't work on my current obsolete iMac. Poverty has its limitations. Perhaps you can find a printer who'll have no reservations about working with bitmaps, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread just for my own possible reference. Then you wouldn't have to go the vector way. But the chances of it are probably not going to be many, given the general impression I've long heard about on the sheer dislike of being stuck with bitmap artwork, no matter how good it is.
FredRPG Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 Hi, 35+ years as a designer here, probably almost 25 of those using both illustrator and Photoshop. I think what you are running into is a problem with the alps printer and not the guy running it. I haven't used an alps since the late 90s but I don't think they've changed much since then. Some printers like these that will print white or spot colors require layers set up in a certain way. For example it will only see the white in a bitmap file as clear, no matter how you save it, tif, eps, psd, or whatever. When I set up a file in Photoshop with a spot color like white or metallic, that color is set up on a completely different layer from the image colors (cmyk), marked and saved as such. Only printers set up to read these layers separately will print them that way, all others will flatten the file and only print the cmyk plates. Illustrator works differently, you can set specific spot colors, overprints and such easily and print spot colors without the cmyk breakdown much easier. I believe alps printers have not been updated in many years and can only interpret spot layers from older eps from vector programs. Short version, you may be SOL without vector files for these older printers. If you have any questions about illustrator or photoshop, feel free to ask. F.
Bernard Kron Posted March 4, 2018 Author Posted March 4, 2018 Hi Fred. Thanks for the excellent and informative response. This is the kind of information I need. I'm working with a non-professional model car enthusiast right now who has managed to get very good results from Publisher files. He's done it purely as a naive user without any sort of technical insight - it's definitely a "it works for me" approach. I suspect this is true of many ALPS users, including many users who print from their ALPS professionally. The method he uses for white and metallics is to print 2 passes from 2 Publisher files, the white or metallic file and a file with all other colors. He uses a method I have heard from other ALPS users as well, which is to place the white or metallic cartridge in the "K" (black) position and print the white or metallic layer. The white or metallic file is coded as black and the ALPS only prints from that cartridge. All other colors are "built" from all 4 CYMK colors in the usual manner. In the case of metallics he prints the metallic color last because it's thick and tends to tear if it printed as the first layer. I originally posted this inquiry because we both were despairing of a solution. But more discussion indicates we may be able to get to where I need to be. However, I'm still not certain. But all you refer to rings true with my experiences. For example all the ALPS users I've talked to, if they are Microsoft users, run XP because that is the driver they have. In some cases this has meant they will only accept earlier versions of vector graphics files, and, as you point out, almost never have gotten to the point of properly printing bitmap files. I don't know enough about Publisher to know if it is a vector graphic application but apparently more recent versions of Publisher files (2003 and later) are successfully read by the old ALPS driver. My recollection is that Publisher went through a radical and profound revision with the 2003 edition, and I suspect it may have become vector graphic driven. I don't use it with enough depth to know, however. I have no idea how my friend stumbled on his approach but as a result he has been able to work with his and his friends' JPG files, as long as they are imported into Publisher. Right now we're trying to finalize a methodology where I can provide him with final art in Publisher format that he can print without further manipulation. Up to now he has always done all the pre-prep and a good deal of the basic graphics work for his friend. I wood hope to avoid this, both to save him work, and to keep my creative process flexible and fluid. If we succeed I'll report back. But your comment provides further insight into the peculiarities of the ALPS printer world and why so many ALPS users can only process files in a very specific and inflexible way. Again, thank you!
BigTallDad Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 Sorry, but for somebody asking for custom decals yet has the "3rd Party has been temporarily disabled" in their photos...nevermind
Bernard Kron Posted March 4, 2018 Author Posted March 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, BigTallDad said: Sorry, but for somebody asking for custom decals yet has the "3rd Party has been temporarily disabled" in their photos...nevermind That's not real. It's a jpg of their warning when they screwed all of us over. I put it there as an attempt at irony...
BigTallDad Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) I guess I missed the irony. Edited March 4, 2018 by BigTallDad
FredRPG Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Hey Bernard, your printers method of two files and two passes makes perfect sense if the printer only has the cmyk ribbons, I wasn't sure if they had a spot for a fifth ribbon. Normally I would steer people away from publisher but if that's what works it sounds like all you have to so is save your file as what publisher interprets best. My guess would be tif or a high resolution jpg. Create your decal image then duplicate and create a black only version that is your white underlay. If you take care to make sure it is only 100% black in the image and not a mixed black your printer should be able to import into publisher and do his trick. Just as a side bar, the early version of alps printer I used actually had a rolls of the thermal transfer and if you printed in just a small area it would still run through a full letter size sheet, there was so much waste on that thing. We had metallic transfer that would stick to laser printer toner, so it was through the laser printer twice then the thermal printer for color. Trying to align everything was next to impossible, I think I ended up with a $100 sheet of decals that were too thick to use. Edited March 4, 2018 by FredRPG
Bernard Kron Posted March 4, 2018 Author Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, FredRPG said: Hey Bernard, your printers method of two files and two passes makes perfect sense if the printer only has the cmyk ribbons, I wasn't sure if they had a spot for a fifth ribbon. .. Thanks Fred. What you describe is exactly what I sent to my friend last night. The max resolution of his bottom-of-the-line ALPS MD-1000 is 600 DPI. I researched the MD-1000 on the internet and determined that it's a CYMK printer. So what he got was 2 Publisher 2010 files, one of which is "White only" where the white layer is coded CYMK 100% "K" (blacK) and one that is "All other colors". The original source art was done in 600 DPI CYMK mode and JPG files dropped into Publisher. I sent him the JPGs as backup as well. These are simple graphics with solid RGB 255,0,0 red and RGB 0,0,0 black as the only two other colors. Hopefully the 100% CYMK "K" black will ensure maximum density of the white layer. The key conceptual breakthrough is to understand that White and Metallics are not colors in the conventional sense of shades constructed from C (Cyan - a kind of blue), M (magenta - a kind of red), Y (yellow) and K (black - for some historic reason coded K), but rather, they are stand-alone layers (spot colors?) whose shade and characteristics (the fact that white isn't just the background color of the printing medium, or in the case of the metallics that they have a characteristic texture and sparkle) are pre-mixed in the ink rather than blended by the printer's software. In my case in preparing my Photoshop files I always work to at least 600 DPI and often will redraw and fill scanned edges during preparation. Also, to ensure color uniformity I will frequently take scanned objects and "fill" them with color overlays, and then rasterize them. This particularly helps when restoring old decals, poster graphics including text, etc., since in fact what you are doing is returning them to the limited color palates that the artists and printers worked with originally. As I work towards the goal of developing a relationship with an ALPS-equipped supplier for printing services what I'm discovering is that over the years I have encountered virtually all of this in one form or another. But mostly it was anecdotal and I've never seen it all in one place. It's turning out that by asking the question in a expert public forum like MCM I have gotten a response which is serving to distill this information into a unified form. Thanks for your comments. They are key to this process. Hopefully my friend and I have will developed a successful approach. We'll see with my these current files... Here's an example of a recent model I completed for the NNL West 2018 TROG theme table where the graphics were entirely assembled from elements found in old Gilmore Oil posters. There are really only two colors. Red and Black, and because it was applied to a light body color (a yellowish cream shade) I was able to print to clear decal stock using my humble Canon inkjet at 600 DPI and get very good results: Edited March 4, 2018 by Bernard Kron
peteski Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) As an Alps owner for about 15 years I can tell you that getting good results with Alps is an art form. Having the vector based artwork greatly increases the success rate. Also, if you really want to get the top results you need to use spot colors. Any images printed using the standard CYMK color printing (where the color is derived from a mix of halftone CYMK inks) will result in unacceptable results (at least to me). Even with the finest halftone (190lpi) selected, I fund that unacceptable in most case. With spot colors your range of available colors is somewhat limited, but the result are top-notch. The problem with bitmaps is that it makes the necessary artwork manipulation much tougher than if the artwork was in a vector format. Having said that, the specific artwork you showed (Gilmore) would be doable in a raster (bitmap) format. I use Corel Draw (and the companion bitmap editor - Corel Photo Paint). If I was going to do it as raster, I would approach the following way (in Photo Paint). Artwork resolution: 600dpi (and 1:1 scale) Color space: 24-bit RGB Each colored area would be as a separate object. No smoothing of the object edges and in between colors. I would do that by reducing the number of colors to 4 (black, red, yellow, white), then change the colors to the following values (in R, G, B): Red 255, 0, 0; Yellow 255, 255, 0; Black 0, 0, 0; White 255, 255, 255). This gives us a ready-to-print color artwork. Next we need to prepare the white undercoat layer. Make copy of this drawing and do the following (Again no smoothing) Change all black areas to white. Change all the red and yellow areas to black (RGB=0, 0, 0) and also make black all the image areas to be printed white. This is where using vector format makes things easier. Basically we need black/white artwork for the white undercoat where all the areas to be printed white are black. And it has to be perfectly aligned with the color artwork. This should result in a good quality decal with white undercoat. If the standard yellow color is too light, that would require some additional tinkering with the image. Looking at your earlier posts, you do have a decent grasp on how to do the artwork for Alps. But with bitmaps (especially when created and printed using different graphic apps) there are more chances that something will go wrong then when using vector format, so I can see why there is apprehension when you provide raster format artwork. Edited March 5, 2018 by peteski
Bernard Kron Posted March 5, 2018 Author Posted March 5, 2018 Thanks so much for your excellent, informative response Peteski. It's chock full of details that support and confirm what I've been discovering. My original post had been about finding a supplier who will already accept raster art, but given that I'm developing a relationship now with an ALPS owner and that we are approaching what I hope will be a solution it seems to me well worth it to work through the process with him. My goal is to avoid the "string telephone" effect by assuming full responsibility for the artwork both in terms of quality and also in terms of its suitability for direct output to the ALPS. The cost of an ALPS printer is probably too much for me to ever own one so this is an important step for me. Peter, you make a comment that caught me eye. You imply that printing secondary colors (green, purple, orange) and varying other shades, all of which must be blended through CYMK output, is not satisfactory. By coincidence my Red Lion art is all in white, black and red, so rendering it in spot colors is, at least theoretically, feasible, and as you point out, would be rock solid by printing properly registered color layers (in effect a kind of color separation approach). A couple of observations regarding this: Firstly, RGB red (255,0,0) is rendered in Photoshop CYMK mode as Cyan=0, Magenta=99, Yellow=100, blacK-0. In the case of RGB black (0,0,0), it's 75, 68, 70, 90, even more of a blend of all 4 CYMK elements. My point is that, as you point out, it's important to call for CYMK 100% black, with C,Y, and M all = 0, in order to assure you get maximum white or metallic coverage with the cartridge in the K position. So the question is just how bad is the ALPS at rendering blended colors? The other observation I would make, is that, as I mentioned above, most poster art and sign painting is in effect spot color printing, since the artist usually works to a severely restricted color spectrum. This is especially true of the kind of text-based graphics used on racing cars. To get a ballpark sense of just how many colors I'll need to use in Photoshop when doing decal prep I usually will use the "posterizing" function, moving the slider to see at what color levels I lose fidelity to the image I'm going after. The number of "colors" that I reduce it to when interpreting photos of hand lettered sign painting or poster art (presumably like the Gilmore stuff) is very low indeed, usually down around 6-10 which, using the overlay function, can often be reduced 2-6. But again, one of these layers might be a blended or secondary color so the issue of how badly does the ALPS render these is important. In any case, if I can work with an ALPS owner I can work these sorts of things out. Perhaps ultimately I'll have to learn a vector program. Certainly for drawing clean and accurate shapes it's the better option. Thanks to you both, Peter and Fred, for the excellent contributions. They are invaluable. And for those of you who wonder just what you are paying for if you ever should commission some custom decal work, welcome to our world, LOL!
peteski Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) I highly recommend thoroughly reading through https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/decals.htm . Alps very poorly handles rendering colors using the CYMK halftone process. That is because it uses a type of halftone which creates patterns that are picked up by the human eye. Ink Jet printers for example use an advances scattering process instead of a standard halftone screen. The scattering of ink dots much less objectionable to the human eye. These are scans of Alps printed decal. Yes, these images were printed by me in a bitmap format. Even with the 190 lpi halftone, the artifacts of the halftone screen are visible. This is especially true when the halftones color is used for very small objects or lettering. Tthe general rule of thumb with Alps is that the best quality is achieved by 100% saturated colors (not halftone blends). Clever Alps users figured out that by layering multiple passes of various Alps colors (printed at 100% density) they can extend the range of non-halftone colors. The website I pointed you to shows sample color charts giving you an idea what can be done with the Alps printer without using the halftoned CYMK colors. Unfortunately each Alps printer seems to be slightly different and some of them cannot handle the multilayer printing without some inks peeling up, or not adhering. As far as the color space is concerned, even though the printer is a CYMK printer, its drivers are happiest when fed RGB based images. Yes, it seems counter-intuitive. This has been discussed many times on the Alps Yahoo groups, and while some users do not seem to have issues using CYMK color space in their artwork, to be on a safe side, most of us (me included) chose to work in the RGB color space. The example you cited where the CYMK black is not a "true black" is one ot the possible things that can go wrong in CYMK color space. With RGB you don't have to worry about that. The website I pointed you to also has a list of decal companies that make decals using Alps - I wonder if your Alps guy is on that list? Also as an anecdote, the person who creates that website (Rob deBie) did not own an Alps printer while he created most of that site - like you, he wanted to understand the process really well so he could provide Alps-print-ready artwork to his Alps guy. Eventually he did buy his own Alps printer. Edited March 6, 2018 by peteski
Bernard Kron Posted March 6, 2018 Author Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) Once again, thank you Peter for so patiently and thoroughly attending to my question. As it happens I have been to the site you linked and had saved it to my bookmarks of modeling resources. This was a few years ago and at the time it didn't relate as immediately to my projects and needs as it does now. I now realize it was most likely the source of some of my understanding of process as I explore it now. I will revisit it and re-read it with care, but even with a cursory review of it just now it's clear that it relates quite specifically to what I am seeking to achieve. The site appears to have been updated fairly recently. Even though some of the links are dead, among the ALPS decal services listed is one where it's noted they stopped offering their services in March 2017, and quite a dew are active. Also on that list is the service that failed to follow up on my initial submissions. The friend I'm working with currently is an amateur doing work for time and materials for his modeling friends, so he's not on the list. I heard from him this evening and it would appear that our initial efforts have proven successful. I'll be getting the latest output in the next few days and when I do I'll report back here. I suspect the remaining issue may be the opacity of the white ink. This may require an underlayment sheet that is white-only which is something I have thought might be needed. My understanding is that some decal vendors always include one with their decals. Thanks in particular for taking the time and effort to specifically explain the problem with the CYMK halftone process used by the ALPS software and how it results in the necessity to use the spot color method. Together with the resources on Rob deBie's site, it should form the basis for further work on my part, now most likely in combination with my ALPS-owning friend, towards using the spot color layer approach. Rob deBie's example is quite clear and understandable and I'll discuss it with my friend. The issue of how many layers his printer will support is key in this regard, but even now it appears we may have developed an approach that is both efficient for him and one on which I can build going forward. Edited March 6, 2018 by Bernard Kron
peteski Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 You're welcome Bernard. Alps MicroDry printers are great asset to a modeler who wants to make custom decals. Since you are serious about utilizing this printer I recommend that you (and your friend) join Alps-related Yahoo groups. While Yahoo groups are supposedly on the way out, we still have about 4000 members (not all are active of course). The groups are: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Alps/info and https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/alpsdecal/info . Both groups are a good resource if you have some issues and you need assistance from the Alps community.
Psychographic Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 I haven't read everything in here, so this might not be relevant and if so I apologize. Maybe a service like this might be useful to you Bernard. https://www.ignitiondrawing.com/home
Bernard Kron Posted March 6, 2018 Author Posted March 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Psychographic said: I haven't read everything in here, so this might not be relevant and if so I apologize. Maybe a service like this might be useful to you Bernard. https://www.ignitiondrawing.com/home It is relevant, and thank you for that. That's an approach I hadn't thought ,about, hiring a vector drawing service. It's good to know that I have another option.
Bernard Kron Posted March 6, 2018 Author Posted March 6, 2018 8 hours ago, peteski said: You're welcome Bernard. Alps MicroDry printers are great asset to a modeler who wants to make custom decals. Since you are serious about utilizing this printer I recommend that you (and your friend) join Alps-related Yahoo groups. While Yahoo groups are supposedly on the way out, we still have about 4000 members (not all are active of course). The groups are: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Alps/info and https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/alpsdecal/info . Both groups are a good resource if you have some issues and you need assistance from the Alps community. Thanks, Peteski. I'll look into it.
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