200 MPG carburetor book

[Greg Wann]

I found this book in a stack of folders I had never looked at since moving here and working in the shop.

[Greg Myers]

50 MPG "Fish" carburetor, been around for years.

[Snake45]

Spoiler Alert: There is NO carburetor you can put on a 1966 Toronado that will take it 200 miles on a gallon of gas. 

You'd be doing VERY well to get 20. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

4 minutes ago, Snake45 said:

Spoiler Alert: There is NO carburetor you can put on a 1966 Toronado that will take it 200 miles on a gallon of gas. 

Unless you bolt it on at the top of a very long hill and roll to the bottom with the engine off most of the way...

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 minutes ago, Snake45 said:

Spoiler Alert: There is NO carburetor you can put on a 1966 Toronado that will take it 200 miles on a gallon of gas. 

You'd be doing VERY well to get 20. 

Yeah, right?

 

The only way you're getting 200 miles a gallon out of a Toronado is to throw it on a trailer!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[1972coronet]

Ah , yes , the ages-old "_________ MPG Carburetor " ( I've seen '50' , '100' , '200' , and '300' MPG claims ) . I've also read about the similarly-ridiculous 100 MPG Engine . 

There are so many holes in these theories that it's not even funny ! While an engine its self has the ability to return 50+ MPG , the vehicle it's placed-in is the variable ! Like , put a Pinto 2.3 litre engine in an F-350 --- worse fuel economy will result vs. an FE 360 / 390 ! 

I can imagine that that book would be an entertaining read ---- in the same place where Sears-Roebuck catalogue used to be "employed" . 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, 1972coronet said:

Ah , yes , the ages-old "_________ MPG Carburetor " ( I've seen '50' , '100' , '200' , and '300' MPG claims ) ...

There are so many holes in these theories that it's not even funny !

What's crazy these days is how many people of apparently reasonable intelligence can get sucked into believing all kinds of stuff that entirely disregards physics, math, observable reality, and documented repeatable science.

Taking the word of "experts" isn't always the wise course of action...but it's a lot easier than searching out the actual truth.

[1972coronet]

20 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

What's crazy these days is how many people of apparently reasonable intelligence can get sucked into believing all kinds of stuff that entirely disregards physics, math, observable reality, and documented repeatable science.

Taking the word of "experts" isn't always the wise course of action...but it's a lot easier than searching out the actual truth.

I'll admit forthright that I'm about as sharp as a bowling ball ---- which has actually saved me ! Haha . I analyse everything ; nothing's taken at face value with me  . 

First time that I can recall reading about the defiant "____" MPG carburetor (and , later , its accomplice engine ) was in 1976 . Even to my 6 year old mind the article's assertions made zero sense .

[Plowboy]

My brother in law has been a mechanic for forty plus years. He worked at a GM dealership for many of those years. He told me about a lady that bought a new mid '80s Cutlass there. It had the small V-8. She bought it on Friday and got the free full tank of gas. She said her first trip would be to Indiana. Monday, she brought it back claiming the gas gauge wasn't working right. She said she made her trip and the gauge was still showing almost 3/4 of a tank. Impossible. So, they filled the car again and the gauge worked as it should. But, it only held around 5 gallons. They told her to drive it for a week and see what happens. She brought it back again the next week saying that the gauge had barely moved. So, they hooked it up to the computer and it showed nothing. They told her to drive it another week. She came back again and told them to keep it until they had it fixed. My brother said either she or the dealer had obviously contacted GM as they were told not to touch the car until a representative arrived. A couple days later, the guy from GM shows up with a new carburetor in a box. My brother in law was told to switch the carburetors out. He said when he took the air cleaner off, it had a carburetor that he had never seen before. As soon as he took the original off, the GMC rep took it, put it back in the box and left. He said the replacement was immediately recognizable. They tested the car once again and the lady came and got it. She called in a couple days and said that it was now working like it should. He has always said that he believed that that carburetor was an experimental that got installed by mistake. I've never known of the man telling a lie even if it would have served his best interest. But, I always doubted that story. Now, this has got me thinking that maybe that story wasn't BS. The next time I talk to him, I'm going to ask him about it. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

31 minutes ago, Plowboy said:

My brother in law has been a mechanic for forty plus years. He worked at a GM dealership for many of those years. He told me about a lady that bought a new mid '80s Cutlass there. It had the small V-8. She bought it on Friday and got the free full tank of gas. She said her first trip would be to Indiana. Monday, she brought it back claiming the gas gauge wasn't working right. She said she made her trip and the gauge was still showing almost 3/4 of a tank. Impossible. So, they filled the car again and the gauge worked as it should. But, it only held around 5 gallons. They told her to drive it for a week and see what happens. She brought it back again the next week saying that the gauge had barely moved. So, they hooked it up to the computer and it showed nothing. They told her to drive it another week. She came back again and told them to keep it until they had it fixed. My brother said either she or the dealer had obviously contacted GM as they were told not to touch the car until a representative arrived. A couple days later, the guy from GM shows up with a new carburetor in a box. My brother in law was told to switch the carburetors out. He said when he took the air cleaner off, it had a carburetor that he had never seen before. As soon as he took the original off, the GMC rep took it, put it back in the box and left. He said the replacement was immediately recognizable. They tested the car once again and the lady came and got it. She called in a couple days and said that it was now working like it should. He has always said that he believed that that carburetor was an experimental that got installed by mistake. I've never known of the man telling a lie even if it would have served his best interest. But, I always doubted that story. Now, this has got me thinking that maybe that story wasn't BS. The next time I talk to him, I'm going to ask him about it. 

I heard almost the exact same story from an uncle who worked as a plant manager for decades at the Ford plant in Minneapolis Minnesota.

About the only difference was that it was apparently a Ford pickup and it supposedly took place at some point in the '70s.

According to the tale, the truck was supposedly getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 MPG.

 

It's an entertaining story, and when I was 15 years old, it seemed feasible, but as I've become older and wiser, I've come to realize that it was likely just that.........an entertaining story.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited August 22, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[TarheelRick]

The difference between a "Fairy Tale" and a "War Story".  The Fairy Tale begins, "Once upon a time", the War Story begins, "No BLAH BLAH BLAH this really happened."

[Vietnam Vet67]

I worked at the Chrysler Tech Center from 1965 to 2007 in the performance engine/race engine development group. When I first hired in I was running a dyno doing carburetor calibration work on a 440. I had to work with an engineer from the Carb Lab which was a pretty big department at the time with 4 full size air flow benches, 4 car garage and many mechanics and engineers. There was also a full time rep from Holley and Carter working there also. They all had many funny stories about the infamous 200 mpg carburetor that supposedly the companies were hiding from the public so that the oil companies would get rich. 

I just remembered that when Chrysler brought out the 3.5L engine in our LH cars in the early 1990's  the lead engineer of the Engine group went around the state to various news agencies promoting the car and engine. When he was in Grand Rapids a caller called in on the radio show and was very indignant that there was a 200 mpg carburetor out there and that it was a conspiracy between the car and oil companies that prevented it from being released.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Vietnam Vet67
addition of info.

[Plowboy]

Here's something I've always wondered about concerning gas engines and I bet Bill would more than likely know the answer. Anyone who has poured gas on something and lit it knows that the vapors ignite before the gas does. So, what I'm wondering is if vapor from gas would produce the same explosion/power as droplets/mist? 

 

[ranma]

THE Late Tom Ogle invented a device that vaporized the gas before it went into the carb,  There is documents online that proved that his product did work. He had a '70 Ford Galaxy that he got 100 MPG on using his invention.

Edited August 23, 2020 by ranma

[Snake45]

2 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I heard almost the exact same story from an uncle who worked as a plant manager for decades at the Ford plant in Minneapolis Minnesota.

About the only difference was that it was apparently a Ford pickup and it supposedly took place at some point in the '70s.

According to the tale, the truck was supposedly getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 MPG.

It's an entertaining story, and when I was 15 years old, it seemed feasible, but as I've become older and wiser, I've come to realize that it was likely just that.........an entertaining story.

Steve

LOTS of people have heard that story: 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nobodys-fuel/

[StevenGuthmiller]

I can guarantee you without any ambiguity whatsoever, that if a device such as this "EVER" existed, it would have reached the market at some point.

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's a unicorn

 

 

 

 

 

Steve 

[Ace-Garageguy]

54 minutes ago, Plowboy said:

Here's something I've always wondered about concerning gas engines and I bet Bill would more than likely know the answer. Anyone who has poured gas on something and lit it knows that the vapors ignite before the gas does. So, what I'm wondering is if vapor from gas would produce the same explosion/power as droplets/mist? 

Here's the thing...the engine doesn't really care if fuel is in a gaseous state (vapor) or a liquid (atomized droplets) state. All that matters in an internal combustion engine is the proportion of the particular hydrocarbon fuel molecules (gasoline, propane, etc.) to available oxygen molecules. That's it. 

SIDE NOTE: This is why "nitrous oxide injection" works, and requires a richer mixture: the nitrous adds additional oxygen to the mixture in the cylinder, so additional fuel added as well makes more power.

There's a thing called "stoichiometric mixture"   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air–fuel_ratio , which is simply the ratio of fuel to air that achieves complete combustion with no fuel left over. And it doesn't matter whether the fuel is liquid or vapor. Cars used to be tuned to run pretty close to this theoretical ideal, but these days, emission-controlled engines are often set up to run towards the lean side...more available oxygen than there is fuel to combine with it. This tends to make them run hotter, which increases the oxides-of-nitrogen that are produced during combustion of fuel in air, and necessitates catalytic converters to mitigate...and it rapidly gets a lot more complicated than I can possibly get into here.

While there have been some pretty wild claims that engines have been able to use "vapor carburetors" to get extremely good mileage, the idea defies known physics and chemistry, and verifiable real-world or lab testing has never confirmed the claims.

Gasoline that's been "vaporized" takes up more physical volume in a combustion chamber than liquid droplets, and the net effect is reduced volumetric efficiency, resulting in reduced power output.

Other gaseous fuels, like propane, natural gas, and hydrogen do have some interesting and worthwhile side benefits, but they're also usually lower in energy content than plain old gasoline...resulting in lower power and poorer fuel economy. I've worked with gaseous fuels and alcohol off and on a good bit over the last five decades, doing repeatable and verifiable experiments.

But in short...there is no free lunch when it comes to this stuff, no matter how many "proofs" are claimed to be floating around.

NOTE: There MAY be some validity to very high mileage claims made by one particular experimental engine that essentially lived in an insulated container, and was supposedly set up to get usable work from almost all the energy produced by burning fuel in air. When you remember that IC engines typically WASTE as much as 70% of the heat the burning fuel produces, dumping it out the exhaust and cooling system, the idea, if ever really developed, has at least theoretical merit...though to get it to work for very long, it would probably need to be made from exotic ceramics that could withstand the heat.

SIDE NOTE 2: There have been some very successful experimental and limited-production engines optimized to take advantage of the particular characteristics of certain gaseous fuels, including a hydrogen-burning bus engine that's said to make as much power and torque as a comparable diesel. Pretty impressive IF it's true.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ace-Garageguy

[PappyD340]

I've heard a lot of these stories about such carburetors too but even if it were possible and I'm not saying it isn't cause there are a lot of brilliant folks in this world but if it were the giant oil companies along with the Government bureaucrats and all who have their hands in the till would squash it like a bug because that would hit them hard in their wallets and that ain't going to happen if they can prevent it. I would venture to say that it would be next to impossible if not impossible to get a patent on something of that magnitude. There would be too much power and money against it and that group can make anything go away.

[Straightliner59]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

There's a thing called "stoichiometric mixture" 

There's some great stuff about that from Tom Jobe, talking about how they arrived at their setup. I think I have it here, somewhere.I'll post it, if I can find it, if you're interested.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Straightliner59 said:

There's some great stuff about that from Tom Jobe, talking about how they arrived at their setup. I think I have it here, somewhere.I'll post it, if I can find it, if you're interested.

That would be great. I'm always interested in how guys who got it right went about it.

[Deuces ll]

200 mpg????...... Maybe on a Solex... Anybody remember those from the early to mid '70s?????.......