3D Printing........Scratch Building or Not?

[Brizio]

Anyway... I think scratchbuilding is different than 3D printing. Scratchbuilding is more something that you born with it, like singing. Not all the people can build something from scratch, or with raw material, and like singing, you can teach a person how to sing, but will have more difficult that a peson that sing naturally. In the other hand everybody can learn how to use Rhino, Blender etc, and 3D print an object. Don't let me wrong, 3D printing is great, is great to have this tecnology. 

I notice that sometime is faster and cheaper scrtachbuild an object using raw material, that 3D printing. The cool thing about 3D printing is that you can have multiple object printed a the same time (depend of printer size) . Instead to have one and mold it and cast it. 

Scratchbuilding a the end will always be different that 3D printing, but both are a breat combo for our hobby.

 

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

First off the original question is 3d printing scratchbuilding. I think the following quote sums this up.

10 hours ago, Aaronw said:

3D printing is in the same category as resin casting and CNC machining.

Is making the master, and then resin casting duplicates scratch-building?

Is making parts on your CNC milling machine scratch building? Does it make a difference if you designed the part in CAD or bought the file to upload into your milling machine?

If yes to either of these, then I don't see why 3D printing isn't. If no to either, what is the difference? Is their a difference between carving a block of aluminum by hand with a file, doing it with a manual milling machine or doing it with a CNC milling machine? 

It gets kind of murky once you are not working strictly with your hands, and without power tools. Once you add power, where do you draw the line, hand drill, drill press, lathe?

 

I agree 3d printing is just another tool if taken in the context as just another tool.

As far as contests go I think 3d printing will have less impact than everyone expects. When aftermarket parts first came out the concern was that it was going to make ruin contests becuase of the cost.

Regardless how you create your own unique parts those parts have to be assembled with the fundamentals in mind. A model with bad paint or glue smudges is not going to do well regardless how you have created your parts.

[Codi]

Hi everyone,

I must say this was a fun thread to read in its entirety.   I agree by and large with Bill's sentiments.  I consider myself a scratch-builder but I've always admired those such as Chris Sobak, Paul Mendoza and Mark Jones among others that can utilize 3D printing as a tool and do their own drawings etc. to create beautiful 3D printed parts.  It's a skill I don't have the time now to learn but I admire it and envy those that can do it.  When I machine a part, it starts from a drawing which in many instances I have to do myself.  It's time consuming but you can't make the part without a proper drawing.  The same applies to the development of "files" to be able to print something in 3D.  Again, those that can scratch build AND create 3D printed files and parts are the "complete package" in this modern age of model building.  It's just another arrow in the quiver which I unfortunately don't possess.    

Cheers to all,  Tim

[bobthehobbyguy]

Codi thanks for weighing in on the subject. Hope you are doing well.

I concur that 3d printing is another tool in the toolbox. In my opinion the true craftsman choose the most suitable tool in his toolbox to get the job done in the best fashion. The same goes for choosing the right material to make a part.

Edited September 23 by bobthehobbyguy
Spell checker it didn’t like some of my word choices.

[Richard Bartrop]

And yes, sometimes it's just easier to get out the Evergreen and build something that way.

[Bugatti Fan]

Thanks for the numerous replies. There have been many differing viewpoints put across on this thread.

3d printing has revolutionised model building across many genres like figures, aircraft etc.

Justifying the expense at home level is another matter unless looking to make for others and charge for a service.

So I will be sticking to hacking away at the plastics, metals and wood the conventional way for the foreseeable future.

[Gramps46]

There has been discussion of doing drawings first.  Going through some old files I found these that I did back in the late '70s for my carvings.  They are pencil on graph paper and did not scan well.  Note they were drawn to 1/25 scale before I converted to the 1/24 scale popular for slot cars.

 

[Perspective Customs]

On 9/21/2023 at 3:01 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

The discussion is about making something from nothing, regardless of the method.

 

 

This is my sticking point on the topic. Fact is we can't make something out of nothing. The materials and tools used to "scratch" build already exist. Who's making their own styrene or glue, and if anyone is they're using chemicals that already exist. 

One person can go to the bakery and buy a cake. Another can buy a box of Duncan Hines, add water and bake a cake. Another will buy eggs, flour, etc. and bake a cake. Another will get the eggs from the chickens, harvest the wheat, milk the cow etc. and bake a cake. In either case no one has made something from nothing. They've all used existing materials to create something new and should only be judged on how good the cake looks and tastes which is subjective.

I think one of the issues is that, particularly as we get older, some get stuck in their beliefs and way of doing things and tend to poo poo new concepts not realizing or acknowledging that at some point in time their concepts were considered new. 

Time marches on. Nothing stays the same.

Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation.

[Aaronw]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:30 AM, Bugatti Fan said:

Aaron stating about 3D printing being in the same category as CNC machining and resin casting is a red herring.

3D printing technology allows hollowed out sections and undercuts to me made directly as it works by layering material.

Those two things are impossible to do on a CNC Miling Machine or Lathe whilst machining as the material is being cut with a mounted tool where either the tool rotates in a chuck on a milling machine or the work rotates in a lathe and a tool held in a tool post is brought on to cut the work.

Masters for resin casting have to be made taking into account to allow the object to be removed from the mould when cast.

 

How is it a red herring? Just because 3d printing can do some things better than machining or resin casting should not matter. 3D printing is not magic just as with machining or resin casting proper design is important. Like resin casting some parts will need to be printed in pieces, and orientation during printing is very important. 3D printers actually do not like undercuts, you often have to add supports, or carefully consider the orientation of the part while in the printer, large undercuts may best be created upside down. Machining and resin casting can also do some things better than 3D printing. 

 

Granted resin casting a hand made part, or turning a part on a manual lathe / mill has more direct human interaction, so I can see the argument for including them, but I have trouble understanding why you would accept a CNC made part as scratch-built, but not a 3D printed part.

 

Other than time and skill set hand carving has many advantages over many of these mechanical methods. A skilled carver can do things very difficult or impossible to do with a machine. If it is just about difficultly we may as well go back to arguing balsa and tissue vs styrene and what is "real" model making. I can see the point some of you are making about the "human element". I think that is a legitimate point, the real question being where is the line drawn.

I think some believe 3D printing is just push a button and a part pops out. Even printing a file made by another requires skill to set it up properly, lots of ways to mess up a print. If 3D printing was easy everybody would be doing it.

 

Ultimately "scratch-building" is a vague term. It often gets confused with kit bashing, so not surprised to see so little agreement on this topic.

Edited September 24 by Aaronw

[StevenGuthmiller]

16 minutes ago, Perspective Customs said:

This is my sticking point on the topic. Fact is we can't make something out of nothing. The materials and tools used to "scratch" build already exist. Who's making their own styrene or glue, and if anyone is they're using chemicals that already exist. 

One person can go to the bakery and buy a cake. Another can buy a box of Duncan Hines, add water and bake a cake. Another will buy eggs, flour, etc. and bake a cake. Another will get the eggs from the chickens, harvest the wheat, milk the cow etc. and bake a cake. In either case no one has made something from nothing. They've all used existing materials to create something new and should only be judged on how good the cake looks and tastes which is subjective.

I think one of the issues is that, particularly as we get older, some get stuck in their beliefs and way of doing things and tend to poo poo new concepts not realizing or acknowledging that at some point in time their concepts were considered new. 

Time marches on. Nothing stays the same.

Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation.

Who me?

I gave up on this discussion quite some time ago.

The more I read, the more pointless it seems.

 

So if I read your post correctly, we should just eliminate the term "scratch made" from the English language, because it's an impossibility, and does not exist.

Everything that mankind makes is from "existing materials", zero exceptions.

 

Anyway, It's been fun guys, but this discussion seems to have really become an exercise in futility.

In the end, it is completely irrelevant whether we consider 3-D printing "scratch building" or not, isn't it?

It's here to stay, and that's the end of it.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited September 24 by StevenGuthmiller

[bobthehobbyguy]

29 minutes ago, Perspective Customs said:

This is my sticking point on the topic. Fact is we can't make something out of nothing. The materials and tools used to "scratch" build already exist. Who's making their own styrene or glue, and if anyone is they're using chemicals that already exist. 

One person can go to the bakery and buy a cake. Another can buy a box of Duncan Hines, add water and bake a cake. Another will buy eggs, flour, etc. and bake a cake. Another will get the eggs from the chickens, harvest the wheat, milk the cow etc. and bake a cake. In either case no one has made something from nothing. They've all used existing materials to create something new and should only be judged on how good the cake looks and tastes which is subjective.

I think one of the issues is that, particularly as we get older, some get stuck in their beliefs and way of doing things and tend to poo poo new concepts not realizing or acknowledging that at some point in time their concepts were considered new. 

Time marches on. Nothing stays the same.

Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation.

Good points. It is an impossibility to make something from nothing. It is possible to make it something from raw materials and as you pointed out there is re multiple paths to achieving that goal.

[Aaronw]

21 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Who me?

I gave up on this discussion quite some time ago.

The more I read, the more pointless it seems.

 

So if I read your post correctly, we should just eliminate the term "scratch made" from the English language, because it's an impossibility, and does not exist.

Everything that mankind makes is from "existing materials", zero exceptions.

 

Anyway, It's been fun guys, but this discussion seems to have really become an exercise in futility.

In the end, it is completely irrelevant whether we consider 3-D printing "scratch building" or not, isn't it?

It's here to stay, and that's the end of it.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

Personally I just describe parts by the process, I built this kit by Revellomiya, I made the seat belts from some ribbon, the buckles were made from some old PE parts sprues. I turned the shifter knob on my lathe. I bought the wheels and tires from 3D printer guy and I made the decals with my printer. 

Edited September 24 by Aaronw

[Bugatti Fan]

Lots of different viewpoints made. This has been a lively discussion and remained civil.

I guess that there is not much that is different that one can add to this thread that I now feel has possibly run its course.

Lively respectful debate is what makes life interesting.

Although many of us will have to agree to differ on this subject it is pleasing that so many have taken the time to respond.

All the input is valuable, so thanks for the participation guys.

[Tom Geiger]

Time and technology continue to march on.   Give it 10-20 years and you'll be able to pull a complete scale vehicle off the printer, right down to the correct colors! 😀

Great discussion guys!     

Edited September 25 by Tom Geiger

[StevenGuthmiller]

25 minutes ago, Tom Geiger said:

Time and technology continue to march on.   Give it 10-20 years and you'll be able to pull a complete scale vehicle off the printer, right down to the correct colors! 😀

Great discussion guys!     

That's the scary part.

No builder required.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Bugatti Fan]

If it ever gets to the point where no builder is required, then that will be the point where our hobby will be dead and buried as far as buying commercial kits are concerned.

Not sure if it will ever happen though.   Creativity will never be stifled.    Many folk will always want to make things

[Straightliner59]

3 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

If it ever gets to the point where no builder is required, then that will be the point where our hobby will be dead and buried as far as buying commercial kits are concerned.

Not sure if it will ever happen though.   Creativity will never be stifled.    Many folk will always want to make things

I agree. There will always be some of us, who have the desire to create. The numbers will maybe decline, but, we'll always be here. 

I might add, for those who are saying "you didn't make the styrene". Stop being ridiculous!😁

[NOBLNG]

4 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

If it ever gets to the point where no builder is required, then that will be the point where our hobby will be dead and buried as far as buying commercial kits are concerned.

Not sure if it will ever happen though.   Creativity will never be stifled.    Many folk will always want to make things

Diecasts are pretty much that point, and thankfully they haven’t killed this hobby. I could see a point where home 3D printing is so common that it is no longer commercially viable for the companies to produce kits?😕 Maybe they will jump into the 3D file game and offer complete detailed “file kits” that can be downloaded and printed at home. Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic now.😬

[Richard Bartrop]

8 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

If it ever gets to the point where no builder is required, then that will be the point where our hobby will be dead and buried as far as buying commercial kits are concerned.

Not sure if it will ever happen though.   Creativity will never be stifled.    Many folk will always want to make things

We're already there.  Show me a hobby store that doesn't already have shelves full of pre built models.

Some people chose to build models all the same, and I really can't see that going away.

[Bugatti Fan]

Ironically the shelves that are full of pre built models are predominately car models rather than all the other genres combined.

The market there is to satisfy the car enthusiast who in the main would like a reasonably priced replica of a car they might desire but could never afford, hence the general car model market.

One step up is the more serious collector willing to spend loads of money for  high quality models like CMC, Autoart, at the lower end up to top end models by Amalgam and Misco.

Then of course the extremely wealthy collector of models by artisans like Gerald Wingrove, Conte, Brianza and Olive Sans to name a few.

However, anyone can buy a built up model and plonk it on a shelf to admire it, but that is nowhere like the satisfaction derived from either building a model from a kit or scratch building one.

[CabDriver]

You can buy perfectly serviceable furniture at IKEA…but there’s still master craftsman woodworkers.

The human desire to create from nothing will never go away.

[Lownslow]

If im drawing it from nothing its drawing it from scratch, nobody in their right mind is gonna sit there and scratch build 4 wheels like this. 

[Bugatti Fan]

Agreed Frank, new technology makes this possible and you have described what the difference is between designing (or scratch drawing as you describe it) something in 3D  to make it as opposed to actually scratch building something by more conventiona! methods.

It must be remembered that before 3D printing, scratch built masters would have been made for repeat parts to be cast.

Basically the discussion has been just about terminology used as to whether 3D printing is scratch building or not.

It has not been about whether we should embrace the new technology of not. It is here and a good thing as far as I see it.

Edited September 27 by Bugatti Fan

[bobthehobbyguy]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:18 PM, CabDriver said:

You can buy perfectly serviceable furniture at IKEA…but there’s still master craftsman woodworkers.

The human desire to create from nothing will never go away.

I agree. I think the 3d printing will have a positive impact on model building.

If anything the push a button get a completed model might have a bigger impact on the diecast market.

And side note just think when AI and 3d printing merge think of the implications of machine creating other machines.

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

...And side note just think when AI and 3d printing merge think of the implications of machine creating other machines.

My money's on the Terminator.