Anglia105E Posted June 22 Author Share Posted June 22 Having allowed the two rear number plate lamp bezels 24 hours for the Liquid Chrome to dry before handling, these were fitted to both sides of the number plate . . . Also, the rear bumper has been fitted, and this will need the ' RR ' plaque to be PVA glued in the centre. The front bumper has also been fitted in the same way, which will need the ' RR ' plaque to be glued in place . . . Much of the day was taken up trying to get the doors assemblies to fit, and as yet they are not fitting well at all . . . The upper body is refusing to fit onto the lower body, particularly at the rear of the car . . . Although the door pillars seem to be engaging with the sockets on the underside of the roof, there is quite a gap between the top edges of the door frames and the lower edges of the roof. The gap between the rear wheel arches of the upper body and the lower body is even more noticable . . . I am not sure what is stopping the two main body parts fitting together, and this has caused a significant problem. Getting the door assemblies to fit properly, as well as opening and closing properly is now seriously holding up progress. David 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 The number plate lights look great David! I wish you the best of luck sorting out that fit issue. You certainly have the skill and patience to make it work. I find that sometimes, setting the problem aside for a time can help. One can often accomplish more with a fresh set of eyes. David G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 Taking David G.'s advice, I stepped away from the issue with the body misalignment for now, and turned my attention to a different part of the build. There are four sill plates supplied as stickers in the Gunze Sangyo kit, and they bear the name ' FREESTONE AND WEBB ' . . . These have been cut out as plates, with the backing paper still attached. One reason is that 40 year old stickers may not stick all that well, and also I feel that the thickness of the plates is more correct if the backing paper is included . . . I used PVA glue to attach the ' plates ', which dries colourless overnight. David 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I'm not familiar with the function of the sill plates David, would they indicate for whom the car was built? David G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 8 hours ago, David G. said: I'm not familiar with the function of the sill plates David, would they indicate for whom the car was built? David G. All of the famous coachbuilders. such as Freestone and Webb, Hooper & Co., Barker's, Park Ward, Gurney Nutting, Mulliner's, James Young and Thrupp & Maberly would always mount a steel plate on all four sills of a finished motor car body. This was to declare that the design and production of each coachbuilt body had been completed to an extremely high standard . . . David W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 Both front sidelights and their lenses have been fitted on the tops of the front wings, along with the central fog lamp . . . While working on this frontal area of the car, I added the ' RR ' plaque at the centre of the front bumper. There are two horns still to be fitted, but the attachment points immediately below the headlamps are far too fragile as far as I am concerned. I am in the process of seeking an alternative method of attachment . . . Moving round to the rear of the car, the petrol filler cap has been fitted, and also the two rear quarter pillar chrome mouldings. The ' RR ' plaque has been added to the centre of the rear bumper . . . The upper body needs to be lifted clear of the lower body at some point, so that the rear seat can be glued back in place, which became detached during the struggle with the door assemblies. My intention is to turn the model over onto it's roof and examine closely the fitting of the inner and outer door pillars, as they connect to the interior roof sockets . . . Maybe I could even contemplate fitting the doors while in the upside down inverted position ? David 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 (edited) 16 hours ago, Anglia105E said: All of the famous coachbuilders. such as Freestone and Webb, Hooper & Co., Barker's, Park Ward, Gurney Nutting, Mulliner's, James Young and Thrupp & Maberly would always mount a steel plate on all four sills of a finished motor car body. This was to declare that the design and production of each coachbuilt body had been completed to an extremely high standard . . . David W. Ah, we have similar sill plates on the older American cars here in the States. Most of these plates were gone by the 1990s. Regarding the fitment issue for the Rolls, it occurred to me that I've had similar problems that were caused by dimensional changes in the plastic castings. As molds wear with usage, the voids can increase in size causing the cast parts to be larger than they were designed to be. I had a similar problem with the Love Bug I built recently. I ended up having to rework a lot of the front boot and dashboard to get them to mate properly in the body shell. Small variations in size on multiple parts can stack causing a cascade of ill-fitting. Oooh, I like that phrase! "A cascade of ill-fitting". It sort of goes along with "A non-trivial event"! David G. Edited June 25 by David G. typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino246gt Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 WOW, It's fantastic! You really made that into something so special, I love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 3 hours ago, David G. said: Ah, we have similar sill plates on the older American cars here in the States. Most of these plates were gone by the 1990s. Regarding the fitment issue for the Rolls, it occurred to me that I've had similar problems that were caused by dimensional changes in the plastic castings. As molds wear with usage, the voids can increase in size causing the cast parts to be larger than they were designed to be. I had a similar problem with the Love Bug I built recently. I ended up having to rework a lot of the front boot and dashboard to get them to mate properly in the body shell. Small variations in size on multiple parts can stack causing a cascade of ill-fitting. Oooh, I like that phrase! "A cascade of ill-fitting". It sort of goes along with "A non-trivial event"! David G. Yes David, those are the sill plates . . . " Fisher Body was an automobile coachbuilder founded by the Fisher brothers in 1908 in Detroit, Michigan. In 1984, General Motors dissolved its Fisher Body Division " ( quote ) Your comments regarding dimensional changes are most interesting, and that is quite possible in this case . . . The critical point with this assembly of upper body to lower body is centred on those interior roof sockets, which is where the inner and outer door posts converge at the top. Today I am in the process of removing the upper body, and having a close look at this area of importance, so in my next post this evening I shall add some photos that show what is going on . . . David W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 1 hour ago, dino246gt said: WOW, It's fantastic! You really made that into something so special, I love it! Thanks Dennis, and that is exactly what I am aiming for . . . Something special ! David 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 All attempts to mount the Phantom III upper body onto the lower body failed yesterday, during several sessions of two to three hours each . . . I made the decision to insert the outer door pillars of the two door assemblies into the inner door posts, and once these were carefully aligned, they were super glued in place . . . This was a completely different approach to having the upper body already mounted on the lower body. All four doors are now in position, and I was able to tackle the upper body engagement with the top lugs of the outer door posts . . . The trouble is, the rear luggage compartment has to clear the rear parcel shelf behind the rear seat, while at the same time the two front forks of the upper body have to align with the firewall and the floorboard at the front end . . . Some considerable force was applied at one point, as I attempted to line up the interior roof sockets using a mirror. The same operation was attempted with the model car upside down on it's roof . . . All this pushing and shoving resulted in a pin breaking off that allows the boot lid to hinge, also the luggage compartment broke away from the upper body rear, so I stopped the process well after midnight . . . It is really not at all clear what is obstructing the fitting together of these two body parts, other than something being distorted or misaligned. I am beginning to dislike the design of this body, although to be fair, I don't see how Gunze Sangyo could have designed the structure any other way . . . David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 An unfortunate bit of bad luck David, this must be very frustrating for you. It does sound like the damage should be repairable though. I'm afraid that the only thing I have to offer at this point is my sympathetic reassurance that you will find a way to make this work. Have you searched the internet for any other built examples of this kit? It is a most unusual kit but there may be other renditions of it by other builders. David G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 Thanks for the suggestion to search for previous builds of this kit David G., but there are none at all unfortunately. One other member on MCM has built one before, and having discovered the model in his basement but in many pieces. I believe he is trying to restore the badly damaged model car. The member in question very kindly sent me lots of useful reference material for the Phantom III . . . I have drilled a hole in the side edge of the boot lid on my build, and after a length of steel rod was super glued into the hole the rod was cut off at 3 mm. This hinges perfectly at the rear of the upper body once more . . . Then I decided to bite the bullet and cut off the lugs at the top of both outer door posts. I had checked the distance between the centres of these two lugs, which was 76 mm . . . I then checked the measurement between the two holes in the interior roof sockets, and this was 77 mm, which explains why I cannot get the tops of the door posts to line up with the sockets, Then followed a great deal of squeezing, pushing and levering of various parts, including the doors and the front ' forks ' of the upper body, and eventually I was able to persuade the top edge of the division glass frame to fit into the channel inside the roof . . . There were still issues with doors not closing, and gaps between the upper and lower body components, so I then raised the bonnet panels on each side into the open position. This allowed the front forks to click into their slots in the lower body . . . With the front forks engaged, the overall alignment of the body seems to be more favourable . . . I am not there yet, but maybe something can be done with this . . . I might need to glue those forks in place, at the front of the upper body, and then deal with each component part of the body, perhaps applying glue as I go ? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Wow, that really is quite the puzzle! It seems as though you're getting a handle on it though David. David G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 Here are a few photographs of the Rolls-Royce, some of which are in sepia . . . Arthur J. Webb has asked to be kept informed of the oustanding issues . . . David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino246gt Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Looks fantastic, now how are you going to hide those wires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 8 minutes ago, dino246gt said: Looks fantastic, now how are you going to hide those wires? Well Dennis . . . This evening I applied some Vallejo black acrylic paint to where the wiring goes into the back of the headlamps, which is to blank out the omitted light from that area. Also, I applied the black acrylic to the red sections of the wiring, which does help to draw attention away those pesky wires, but of course it does not make them invisible . . . David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 These are the photos to show the work mentioned in my previous post, which is the application of the black acrylic paint to the headlamp wiring . . . David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo1303s Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Just bend the wires at the headlight straight down so the fender hides them ! Looks great by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 9 hours ago, milo1303s said: Just bend the wires at the headlight straight down so the fender hides them ! Looks great by the way Okay Bob thanks . . . I was worried that the wires might break and lose contact if I bent them at a 90° angle ? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo1303s Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 they should bend easily on a 90 degree angle don't go bending them 50 times but once should be fine next time find them with 30 gauge wire much easier to hide !! lookin great by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 11 hours ago, milo1303s said: they should bend easily on a 90 degree angle don't go bending them 50 times but once should be fine next time find them with 30 gauge wire much easier to hide !! lookin great by the way Okay Bob, I shall see what I can do . . . There are a couple of black straight covers on the ends of the two wires, where they go into the back of the headlamps, but I should be able to cut through those carefully with a scalpel knife . . . David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 The remaining two bonnet panel chrome handles have now been fitted on the passenger side . . . During further investigation into the body fitting issues, it was noticed that the width of the rear parcel shelf appears to be wider than the space into which the parcel shelf has to fit. Some of the following photos show the width of the parcel shelf, as indicated by the piece of string, and the string was laid across the space just above the luggage compartment bay. I proceeded to remove 4 mm of material from both sides of the parcel shelf, and then test fitted the upper body . . . Although there appeared to be a significant improvement, we are not there yet . . . It was decided to super glue the two front forks of the upper body in place, once they were correctly aligned with their slots in the sides of the lower body, and clicked into those slots. Then I made sure that the top edge of the division glass frame was properly inserted into the underside of the roof channel, and this enabled me to deal with the rear end of the upper body . . . By applying some pressure to the upper edge of the luggage compartment bay, and also squeezing together the upper body and the lower body at the point where the upper body makes contact with the rear wing (fender), a reasonably good fit was arrived at. All four doors close, but the passenger side rear door springs open when released . . . There might be some distortion going on, that is not obvious to the naked eye. More fine tuning is required ! The pair of chrome horns have been fitted under the headlamps at the front of the car, and these turned out to be extremely difficult to glue in place. This was due to the fragile attachment points . . . To overcome the problem I cut out two small squares of card, and using these as spacers, the horns were super glued to the mountings . . . David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 I'm glad to know that you seem to be getting a handle on fitting the body and chassis together. You mentioned the package shelf as one of the contributing factors in the matter. That makes me think that it's the "size distortion cascade" as I've come to think of it. I experienced a similar set of circumstances when I built the VW Love Bug earlier this year. In this case, probably due to mold wear, each of about a half dozen parts experienced a size increase of probably about a mm or less, which may not seem like much. When stacked however, those tiny variations add up to several mm of misalignment and poor fitting. The "size distortion cascade" effect. Hopefully, having the package shelf corrected will reveal the next point of interference... and the next.. and next. There are probably several that will need to be addressed. I hope you can find a quick and easy solution to the problem. David G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglia105E Posted July 2 Author Share Posted July 2 4 hours ago, David G. said: I'm glad to know that you seem to be getting a handle on fitting the body and chassis together. You mentioned the package shelf as one of the contributing factors in the matter. That makes me think that it's the "size distortion cascade" as I've come to think of it. I experienced a similar set of circumstances when I built the VW Love Bug earlier this year. In this case, probably due to mold wear, each of about a half dozen parts experienced a size increase of probably about a mm or less, which may not seem like much. When stacked however, those tiny variations add up to several mm of misalignment and poor fitting. The "size distortion cascade" effect. Hopefully, having the package shelf corrected will reveal the next point of interference... and the next.. and next. There are probably several that will need to be addressed. I hope you can find a quick and easy solution to the problem. David G. The more that I think about your ' size distortion cascade ' effect, the more it does actually make sense to me . . . Given that this Phantom III kit is 40 years old, it is quite conceivable that several areas of those parts under the rear window of the upper body could be oversized by as much as one mm. Then, as you say David, these errors in size when stacked up will be enough to put everything out, resulting in serious misalignment . . . Having removed some material from the package shelf using a mini drill and grind stone attachment, I would probably do well to examine othe parts in that same area . . . This is just a little more difficult, now that I have super glued those front forks of the upper body in place, and also the division glass frame at the top edge has to slot into the channel of the roof underside, although I haven't glued that in place yet . . . This will be a process of trial and error, so taking a small amount of plastic off here and there, until hopefully something drops into a better fit . . . Thanks for your helpful suggestions, and this has inspired me to investigate further. Certainly, your VW Love Bug build appears to be a similar set of problems. David W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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