Round2 at Akron NNL

[Mark C.]

1 hour ago, 1972coronet said:

I understand your logic. I was thinking in terms of the inner structure of the Duster , et al. , quarter panels ; their inner supports. Perhaps the inner structure wouldn't permit roll-down quarter windows ? That's dismissing the convex shape of the quarter glass. 

Just a supposition on my part.

That very well may be true.  I was thinking about it from a corporate design/engineering/product planning point of view, but you're right in that it just may have been physically impossible to do.

[Mike Slapattack]

I'm happy to see the '76 Nova returning!

[CapSat 6]

12 hours ago, Mark C. said:

Yet the “23” body style did have roll down quarter windows (Swinger/Scamp).

My line of thinking was as follows:

- ‘68-‘70 B bodies had the same roofline and doors with sashless window design for both 2-door sedan “21” and hardtop “23” bodies.  Presumably a departure from the past for cost/production (and hence cost) reasons.

- ‘67-‘69 A-bodies had the old-style separate roofs for sedans and hardtops (Dart), Plymouth had Barracuda for 2 hardtop models, plus a standard Valiant 2-door sedan.

- For 1970, Plymouth A-body line initially had only a 4-door sedan, and Duster for its 2-door model. Barracuda was now more specialized as a sports type car (E-body).  Dart continued with its 4-door sedan and Swinger, but no 2-door sedan.  Dodge now had Challenger as well, on the same platform as Barracuda.  I was wondering if Plymouth was planning to have both hardtop and “sedan” 2-doors in their A-body line, and thus may have designed Duster to be both, sharing the same roof, as had become corporate practice.

- Meanwhile, there had developed a rivalry between Plymouth and Dodge within the corporation, with them wanting a version of Duster, which they received for 1971 (Demon - which helps explain why that car had differently shaped front and rear wheel arches with Dart fenders combined with Duster body).  Plymouth got Scamp out of the deal (Swinger body with Duster/Valiant fenders).

- By this line of thinking, I’m thinking that before the 1970s debuted, Plymouth knew they were getting Scamp, and thus decided to not offer Duster as a real hardtop for a 1-year only deal.  This is only me speculating on what may have happened, given all the moving pieces within Chrysler at the time.

- As a side note, this is also why Dart Swinger 340 was gone for 1971 (in USA), as Dodge decided to make Demon their budget performance car, and Swinger 340 would have been redundant (and competition for Demon 340).

Or something like that.

Your guess is pretty close!  

There was a comprehensive article in Collectible Automobile Magazine some years ago (issue from April 1999), which told the story of the development of the Duster. It was written by Jeffrey Godshall, who worked at Chrysler back during that era, and who had an inside track on getting the story from the parties involved. 

The basic story is that the Duster was NOT IN PLYMOUTH'S PRODUCT PLAN- the designers came up with it on the budget they received for updates to the '70 Valiant, put it in the pipeline, and had to go forward with it once they reached a certain point. Marketing initially had nothing to do with planning the model. Notice that the front end and other details of the '70 Valiant did not change much from the '69- the reason being that the designers were tasked with the model facelift, and designed a whole new product instead!   

The designers had cooperation with some people in body engineering, who devised different window regulators so that they could use the existing thin Valiant doors with the new curved glass that was required. Without that cooperation, the design would not have worked. 

The quarter window decision was less about cost per unit, but somewhat more driven by having to keep tooling costs down- staying within the constraints of having to bring this all-new product (devised without upper management blessing) to market. 

There were still some hard feelings (or more accurately - some execs were livid!) within Chrysler's different groups: Marketing (perhaps rightly) thought that the Duster would and did cannibalize sales from their new E Body Barracuda, for which a much heavier investment was made. Heads would surely have rolled within the Plymouth division, except that fortunately, the Duster was a runaway sales success. 

It was a great read...worth seeking out a back issue of that Collectible Automobile Magazine for that story. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2024 by CapSat 6
words

[Mark C.]

Wow!  Thanks for that.  I’m always fascinated by the behind-the-scenes stories from back in the day.  I wasn’t aware of the curved glass issues for the doors, but now that I think of it, the Valiant/Dart glass was quite flat in comparison.

 I will have to keep an eye out for that issue of CA.

I did look online and found a messageboard thread where some guy was trying to convert his Duster to roll-down quarter windows.  I believe in the end there was a member that would have restricted the pathway for the glass to roll down, which probably relates to the tooling cost you mention (likely in relation to keeping common inner body construction with Valiant).  The other issue he faced was that, being flip out glass, it was the exact size of the opening, and thus was too small to contain the attachment points for a regulator (which would normally be covered by the body skin).

Most interesting tangent!

[Mark C.]

Another tidbit that’s kinda unrelated to Dusters, but on the topic of Chrysler 2-door philosophy is that the low line ‘71-‘74 B-bodies (Satellite/Charger) had fixed quarter glass, with no regulator to roll up/down, nor even a flip out feature.  Seems odd, since outward appearance was exactly the same as the hardtop, except the window couldn’t move.  I had a ‘74 Charger back in the 1980s like that, complete with slant six (yes, it was slow, but looked great!).

Presumably this was completely a cost cutting measure, to allow them to advertise a lower sticker price, and I have no idea how many were made like this.  However, the hardtop body style was living on borrowed time by then (with opera windows and such coming into style, plus the whole rollover safety issue that almost cancelled the convertible forever), so maybe folks weren’t all that concerned whether their windows rolled down or not (speculation of course).

Then there was also the ‘73-‘74 Charger SE with the fixed quarter glass covered by a piece that made the quarter glass look like louvers (and combined with a vinyl roof)…

Edited October 21, 2024 by Mark C.

[Mark]

Too, Chrysler was starting to cut corners here and there (decals instead of pot metal emblems, for example).  They were already on the road to the financial troubles that came to a head later in the decade.  The fact that they didn't have a domestically built subcompact (instead having to import them) was the first sign of trouble...

[M W Elky]

11 minutes ago, Mark said:

Too, Chrysler was starting to cut corners here and there (decals instead of pot metal emblems, for example).  They were already on the road to the financial troubles that came to a head later in the decade.  The fact that they didn't have a domestically built subcompact (instead having to import them) was the first sign of trouble...

The cricket comes to mind even Sox & Martin had one

[Ragtop Man]

ChryCo quality took a severe nosedive in the late 60s /early 70s, which was not entirely limited to Highland Park - GM and Ford began cutting corners and costs to support aggressive finanacial goals as the 'guns-n-butter' economy began to cool, rising costs began to eat away at profits and entry buyers looked for more basic solutions. 

Stripping a Barracuda to Duster price levels would be the height of insanity - it would no longer BE a 'Cuda.  

Without hijacking too badly, I always thought Duster, and to a lesser extent, Maverick were good  solutions for the basic small car category. They lined up fine with the GM X-body range. And yes, GM had their issues with diluting the Nova for 1971 by expanding to Buick, Olds and Pontiac. Chevy dealers were in near mutiny, having been promised an exclusive...oh well time marches on. 

[mikemodeler]

On 10/20/2024 at 4:50 PM, Rob Hall said:

Yeah, probably why most everything today has power windows...not enough demand for manual windows to be cost effective.  In the US I can't imagine there is much demand for manual windows.

Mostly for production purposes. Put power windows in every trim level of a model and less down time on the production line. There might be a work truck version of a F-150 or Silverado that has crank windows, I'd have to do some digging to see if its a possibility.

[Rob Hall]

2 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Mostly for production purposes. Put power windows in every trim level of a model and less down time on the production line. There might be a work truck version of a F-150 or Silverado that has crank windows, I'd have to do some digging to see if its a possibility.

I noticed even commercial vans and cutaway vans have power windows.  Had a variety of Transit vans, E-series and Savanna box trucks from Penske last year with my move and they all had power windows. 

[tim boyd]

Interesting discussion here as my first new cars were a 1973 Duster 340, followed by a factory ordered 1974 Road Runner E58 360 HiPo.   I liked the Duster layout with the flip windows as I could reach behind me and flip open the window for ventilation as described above. 

My '74 RR did not have the flip feature,, so I added the Astro Ventilation to my order, which was supposed to route added air from the floor level vents to the top two center IP outlets otherwise used for A/C (I couldn't afford AC and did not want to deal with the maintenance issued down the road).    That turned out to be a total bust as the only air that ever came out of those vents was hot air, even when it was cold outside.  Years later, as some of you here pointed out, Mother Mopar eliminated the vent holes toward the rear of the hood for '74 B-bodies....probably explaining why the astro vent option was now worthless. 

I knew the RR had the fixed rear quarter windows when I ordered it, but after delivery I was surprised to see there was no B0Pillar.  The RR was essentially a two door hardtop body style with the rear quarter windows being fixed in place instead of operating.  I also learned, years later, that 1974 RRs ordered with Power Windows (again a cost I did not want to incur, plus my father had had ongoing problems with the power windows in his Mopar wagons over the years), all four windows worked and lowered and the car was then a true hardtop.   Sure wish I had known that when I ordered the car....TB 

[Luc Janssens]

16 hours ago, mikemodeler said:

Mostly for production purposes. Put power windows in every trim level of a model and less down time on the production line. 

Indeed, for a decade or so at GM Continental, I did line balancing, and the more options the harder it gets to balance the line jobs without messing with the scheduling/sequence of the to-be-build cars.

 

[CapSat 6]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:17 AM, Mark C. said:

Another tidbit that’s kinda unrelated to Dusters, but on the topic of Chrysler 2-door philosophy is that the low line ‘71-‘74 B-bodies (Satellite/Charger) had fixed quarter glass, with no regulator to roll up/down, nor even a flip out feature.  Seems odd, since outward appearance was exactly the same as the hardtop, except the window couldn’t move.  I had a ‘74 Charger back in the 1980s like that, complete with slant six (yes, it was slow, but looked great!).

Presumably this was completely a cost cutting measure, to allow them to advertise a lower sticker price, and I have no idea how many were made like this.  However, the hardtop body style was living on borrowed time by then (with opera windows and such coming into style, plus the whole rollover safety issue that almost cancelled the convertible forever), so maybe folks weren’t all that concerned whether their windows rolled down or not (speculation of course).

Then there was also the ‘73-‘74 Charger SE with the fixed quarter glass covered by a piece that made the quarter glass look like louvers (and combined with a vinyl roof)…

Since the Charger in essence became the ‘71 Coronet 2 door, they did really jam the content level down in those cars from ‘71-on. I guess they had to compete on price with the base Torino and Mailbu. Well into the ‘70’s, you could get those cars pretty stripped it you wanted to. 

[mikemodeler]

Looking forward to the 72 Chevelle, hoping they showed it some love like they did on the 64 Chevelle.

[1972coronet]

8 hours ago, tim boyd said:

My '74 RR did not have the flip feature,, so I added the Astro Ventilation to my order, which was supposed to route added air from the floor level vents to the top two center IP outlets otherwise used for A/C

I've always wondered about the Strato-Vent (Chrysler's nomenclature) and its function(s). Seems like a concession for the 440 & Hemi cars when the 4-speed or multiple carbs or steep gearing was ordered (e.g., A/C not available).

[tim boyd]

8 hours ago, 1972coronet said:

I've always wondered about the Strato-Vent (Chrysler's nomenclature) and its function(s). Seems like a concession for the 440 & Hemi cars when the 4-speed or multiple carbs or steep gearing was ordered (e.g., A/C not available).

Thx John...never can remember the correct nomenclature for that non-functional (!) feature...best....TB

(My Monroney/window sticker below used a spec sheet nomenclature of "Strato Ventilation"...) 

[Mark C.]

18 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Interesting discussion here as my first new cars were a 1973 Duster 340, followed by a factory ordered 1974 Road Runner E58 360 HiPo.   I liked the Duster layout with the flip windows as I could reach behind me and flip open the window for ventilation as described above. 

My '74 RR did not have the flip feature,, so I added the Astro Ventilation to my order, which was supposed to route added air from the floor level vents to the top two center IP outlets otherwise used for A/C (I couldn't afford AC and did not want to deal with the maintenance issued down the road).    That turned out to be a total bust as the only air that ever came out of those vents was hot air, even when it was cold outside.  Years later, as some of you here pointed out, Mother Mopar eliminated the vent holes toward the rear of the hood for '74 B-bodies....probably explaining why the astro vent option was now worthless. 

I knew the RR had the fixed rear quarter windows when I ordered it, but after delivery I was surprised to see there was no B0Pillar.  The RR was essentially a two door hardtop body style with the rear quarter windows being fixed in place instead of operating.  I also learned, years later, that 1974 RRs ordered with Power Windows (again a cost I did not want to incur, plus my father had had ongoing problems with the power windows in his Mopar wagons over the years), all four windows worked and lowered and the car was then a true hardtop.   Sure wish I had known that when I ordered the car....TB 

Well that's most interesting, Tim.  I never realized before that the Road Runner had fixed quarter windows only unless the power window option was ordered.  It seems a little odd that they wouldn't have offered manual roll down quarter windows as an option (a buddy of mine once had a '73 Satellite Sebring with manual roll down quarter windows, so the parts were available).  My Dad sold Plymouths during part of the 1970s, and had brought home a few '73/'74 Road Runners, but as a kid I paid attention to the cool stripes and hood scoop, etc, and don't recall whether the rear windows rolled down or not... I was only interested in performance stuff at the time anyhow (when he brought home the 1975 Road Runners I thought they would be even faster because they had 4 exhaust tip openings instead of only 2!  lol).

Perhaps you have already seen it, but the dealership data book includes info about the quarter windows, among other things of course:  https://www.hamtramck-historical.com/dealerships/1974PlymouthDealershipDataBook-04.shtml

[sak]

On 10/21/2024 at 9:06 AM, Mark C. said:

Wow!  Thanks for that.  I’m always fascinated by the behind-the-scenes stories from back in the day.  I wasn’t aware of the curved glass issues for the doors, but now that I think of it, the Valiant/Dart glass was quite flat in comparison.

 I will have to keep an eye out for that issue of CA.

I did look online and found a messageboard thread where some guy was trying to convert his Duster to roll-down quarter windows.  I believe in the end there was a member that would have restricted the pathway for the glass to roll down, which probably relates to the tooling cost you mention (likely in relation to keeping common inner body construction with Valiant).  The other issue he faced was that, being flip out glass, it was the exact size of the opening, and thus was too small to contain the attachment points for a regulator (which would normally be covered by the body skin).

Most interesting tangent!

It would've been easier to engineer a way to quickly remove and install the pillar and glass as a unit, like the old pop-out sunroofs. It would not roll , but it would look the part in the end. I believe the pillar on my duster was spot-welded in but been a long time. 

[niteowl7710]

23 hours ago, mikemodeler said:

Looking forward to the 72 Chevelle, hoping they showed it some love like they did on the 64 Chevelle.

No love it's a straight reissue. The 64 could get tweaks as it was a new tool. 

[Ragtop Man]

Tim, I assume you have / had the CARS magazine issue where they ordered virtually that exact car for a long term tester. 

I think they missed the cutoff for a 440, but liked the HP 360 better and felt it was probably more in step with the times. Said it looked like a NASCAR stocker with license plates, but no #43. 

The article was highly influential to me - always loved the basic black, with just the wheel trim, best wheel-tire and maybe the rocker molding always looked best regardless of brand.

Did it on Dad's Ford lease car drivers on several occasions, prompting other employees to remark, "Hey, Ted, how come that looks so good? I got the [higher trim/sales department clutter package] but yours is way better." 

[tim boyd]

11 hours ago, Ragtop Man said:

Tim, I assume you have / had the CARS magazine issue where they ordered virtually that exact car for a long term tester. 

I think they missed the cutoff for a 440, but liked the HP 360 better and felt it was probably more in step with the times. Said it looked like a NASCAR stocker with license plates, but no #43. 

The article was highly influential to me - always loved the basic black, with just the wheel trim, best wheel-tire and maybe the rocker molding always looked best regardless of brand.

Did it on Dad's Ford lease car drivers on several occasions, prompting other employees to remark, "Hey, Ted, how come that looks so good? I got the [higher trim/sales department clutter package] but yours is way better." 

Bob...yeah I bought the Cars magazine story issue at the time it came out, but if the timing recollection is correct, that story appeared about six months after I ordered the car and about four months after I had taken delivery.  My own spec decisions were mostly driven by some of the very early press previews of the new E58 that appeared around 9/73, plus my knowledge from my Dad's Dodge and Chrysler wagons that the big block wedges were heavy and gas users, while the 340 in my Duster (traded in for the RR) had (even with lowered compression) relatively good mileage and very responsive driving attributes.  I had always liked pure black cars with tasteful chrome and mag wheels, so that drove the color decision.  Interesting you mention the rocker molding....that was not RR factory content but I bought the rockers and a Satellite Sebring Plus bright molding that went above the grille from the dealer parts department (along with the decklid luggage rack, too) and added them to the car over the first couple years of ownership.  I too shared your view on those rockers!   Cheers...TB