STU111 Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Flushed with the success of my latest finished build, l started on my 71 442. Oh dear. I sprayed it Tamiya Italian red over Tamiya pink primer. Unfortunately there was some black overspray from my painting the interior roof lining on the outside, it showed through. I should have known better but I kept spraying hoping it would cover and this is the result.Hopefully I can save it, but I’ve found out the hard way that red isn’t really very nice to spray.
ybsluos Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 I’ve been there Stuart. I always have a time with reds and yellows. If I’m being honest I still struggle with painting model cars any color and I’ve been trying for 40 years! I hope you can save it my friend. Good luck and happy building. 1
STU111 Posted October 16, 2024 Author Posted October 16, 2024 Thanks Mark. I’ll let it swim in the isopropyl alcohol bath for a few days and see how it goes. I just got a bit cocky as the last few builds I’d turned out some pretty good paint jobs. Nothing like a little bit of a fail to bring you back to earth.?? 2
Zippi Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Yeah, been there, done that, and still doing it STU. The best paint stripper I've found that works the best for me is Easy Off. 1
mrm Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 52 minutes ago, Zippi said: Yeah, been there, done that, and still doing it STU. The best paint stripper I've found that works the best for me is Easy Off. Easy Off is what I use for stripping chrome. It’s worth mentioning that there are two different Easy Off products that look almost identical, so it’s important to read their labels. The original is what works really good. However it irritates your lungs and throat like nothing else. So Easy Off made an “improved” version, which does not irritate your breathing. And that “improved” one does not work well (if at all) as a stripper. 1
TopherMcGinnis Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 I painted one with Createx, cleared with Tamiya and it reacted. I dunked it in purple stuff, the paint would all come off. I used brake fluid and it took all of the paint off. Cleaned it with Dawn dish soap and have it primered with MCW lacquer primer. I need to sand it one more time to make smooth for for paint. 1
mrm Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 12 minutes ago, TopherMcGinnis said: I painted one with Createx, cleared with Tamiya and it reacted. I dunked it in purple stuff, the paint would all come off. I used brake fluid and it took all of the paint off. Cleaned it with Dawn dish soap and have it primered with MCW lacquer primer. I need to sand it one more time to make smooth for for paint. Tamiya clear is something I try to stay away from. It is stronger and more aggressive than any other Tamiya paint. It will eat through decals and really soak into whatever is underneath. That aside, any lacquer based clear will lift Createx as it is acrylic. It has been discussed at nauseam that there is a simple principle to follow when painting model bodies. Enamels and acrylics over lacquers is OK, but never spray lacquer over enamel or acrylic. The other thing about Tamiya clear is that it will yellow up over the years. Ever so slightly, but it will. That is fine over most colors, but does not look good on white paintjobs/decals and especially on silver.
TopherMcGinnis Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 3 hours ago, mrm said: Tamiya clear is something I try to stay away from. It is stronger and more aggressive than any other Tamiya paint. It will eat through decals and really soak into whatever is underneath. That aside, any lacquer based clear will lift Createx as it is acrylic. It has been discussed at nauseam that there is a simple principle to follow when painting model bodies. Enamels and acrylics over lacquers is OK, but never spray lacquer over enamel or acrylic. The other thing about Tamiya clear is that it will yellow up over the years. Ever so slightly, but it will. That is fine over most colors, but does not look good on white paintjobs/decals and especially on silver. This is PPG 2k over Createx Blood Red Candy over Createx Cosmic Copper base. No issues. 1
mrm Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 (edited) 50 minutes ago, TopherMcGinnis said: This is PPG 2k over Createx Blood Red Candy over Createx Cosmic Copper base. No issues. Here we go again... What does that have to do with Tamiya clear attacking Createx? Tamiya, Mr.Hobby, Testors Wet Look, Duplicolor, Rustoleum etc., etc., solvent based lacquer clear coats and 2K clear are two completely different things. It is like comparing CA glue with 30 min Epoxy. You know how CA glue attacks clear plastic? That's exactly what any of the above mentioned lacquer paint clear coats do to enamels and acrylics. Because what keeps them liquid are solvents which evaporate when applied in order to harden the coat. Those solvents attack any paint that is not designed to handle them. Tamiya and Createx acrylics, just like Testors or Humbrol enamels are just such paints not designed to handle lacquer solvents. Polyurethane clear coats, 2K clears for short, are just like 2 part epoxy. They don't cure by being exposed to air, by solvent evaporating from them. They cure by a chemical reaction triggered by mixing part A with part B. This is why they can be applied over virtually anything out there, including enamels and acrylics, like Createx. However, for a variety of reasons (I'm not gonna go there), a lot of people don't use 2K clear. And those people need to comprehend that if they chose to use acrylic or enamel paint on their models, absolutely nothing wrong with that, they need to stay away from lacquer clears, especially Tamiya. They need to use Enamel safe clear for enamels or acrylic clear, which will go over any paint safely and it is offered by both Tamiya and Createx, just not in a spray can. Failing at applying lacquer over enamels/acrylics over and over and keep attempting it will yield the same results as trying to defy gravity and walk on the ceiling. Edited October 16, 2024 by mrm Typos 3
TopherMcGinnis Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 Thank you for the detailed explanation. I'm not a painter by profession, and did not realize the 2k clears are safe for the acrylics. I tried it on a whim and it turned out great. 2
sak Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 38 minutes ago, mrm said: Here we go again... What does that have to do with Tamiya clear attacking Createx? Tamiya, Mr.Hobby, Testors Wet Look, Duplicolor, Rustoleum etc., etc., solvent based lacquer clear coats and 2K clear are two completely different things. It is like comparing CA glue with 30 min Epoxy. You know how CA glue attacks clear plastic? That's exactly what any of the above mentioned lacquer paint clear coats do to enamels and acrylics. Because what keeps them liquid are solvents which evaporate when applied in order to harden the coat. Those solvents attack any paint that is not designed to handle them. Tamiya and Createx acrylics, just like Testors or Humbrol enamels are just such paints not designed to handle lacquer solvents. Polyurethane clear coats, 2K clears for short, are just like 2 part epoxy. They don't cure by being exposed to air, by solvent evaporating from them. They cure by a chemical reaction triggered by mixing part A with part B. This is why they can be applied over virtually anything out there, including enamels and acrylics, like Createx. However, for a variety of reasons (I'm not gonna go there), a lot of people don't use 2K clear. And those people need to comprehend that if they chose to use acrylic or enamel paint on their models, absolutely nothing wrong with that, they need to stay away from lacquer clears, especially Tamiya. They need to use Enamel safe clear for enamels or acrylic clear, which will go over any paint safely and it is offered by both Tamiya and Createx, just not in a spray can. Failing at applying lacquer over enamels/acrylics over and over and keep attempting it will yield the same results as trying to defy gravity and walk on the ceiling. It should be mentioned that the "acrylic" in a paint is the resin. And not always the same. It can be modified to be water-born, like craft paints or solvent-based like what was used to paint automobiles decades ago. "Enamel" on the other hand, is a NOT a type of resin. Its a descriptive term referring to a durable, glossy finish, witch in our hobby, usually means an oil based product. That being said, it is the stability of the resin that determines how it will react, not the solvent that was originally used to emulisify it. 1
mrm Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 27 minutes ago, sak said: It should be mentioned that the "acrylic" in a paint is the resin. And not always the same. It can be modified to be water-born, like craft paints or solvent-based like what was used to paint automobiles decades ago. "Enamel" on the other hand, is a NOT a type of resin. Its a descriptive term referring to a durable, glossy finish, witch in our hobby, usually means an oil based product. That being said, it is the stability of the resin that determines how it will react, not the solvent that was originally used to emulisify it. You are absolutely correct. I was talking about the reaction between the contents in the “enamel” - the resin as you described it, with the solvents used in the clear coat. Either way they don’t mix well together and that’s what needs to be avoided.
Stef Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 6 hours ago, mrm said: Tamiya clear is something I try to stay away from. It is stronger and more aggressive than any other Tamiya paint. It will eat through decals and really soak into whatever is underneath. That aside, any lacquer based clear will lift Createx as it is acrylic. It has been discussed at nauseam that there is a simple principle to follow when painting model bodies. Enamels and acrylics over lacquers is OK, but never spray lacquer over enamel or acrylic. The other thing about Tamiya clear is that it will yellow up over the years. Ever so slightly, but it will. That is fine over most colors, but does not look good on white paintjobs/decals and especially on silver. Oh me oh my. This. 128%. I'm not too familiar with Tamiya sprays, but I'm kind of forced to use them now cuz no more Testors, Krylon short cuts, or any of the other stuff I was using 25 years ago. Earlier this year, I DESTROYED my Tamiya R34 VSpec with Tamiya TS-13 clear. Short story long: Tamiya light grey fine surface primer. Followed by a couple coats of Tamiya TS-92 Metallic Orange. Followed by a couple coats of Tamiya TS-13 clear (admittedly too heavy), and wow, it liquified the orange underneath, lifted it, melted it, and everything drooped and sagged. I was under the impression Tamiya sprays were acrylic. I've since been told that Tamiya clear is too hot, and at least one other person told me Tamiya sprays are full on lacquers. So then, I need to find a clear that is gentle. I'm open to any suggestions you cats may have on clear sprays that work nicely on Tamiya TS paints! I have a Black Beauty in TS-42 Light Gun Metal, and I want to give it a nice buffed clearcoat! In the meantime, thanks for your thorough explanation, Michael!
DJMar Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 19 minutes ago, Stef said: I was under the impression Tamiya sprays were acrylic. I've since been told that Tamiya clear is too hot, and at least one other person told me Tamiya sprays are full on lacquers. Tamiya's TS sprays are synthetic lacquers. This same ad copy has been on their website for years. Personally, I've never had an issue with TS-13 gloss clear used over any Tamiya TS paints, but that just could be my luck. 1
STU111 Posted October 16, 2024 Author Posted October 16, 2024 2 hours ago, DJMar said: Tamiya's TS sprays are synthetic lacquers. This same ad copy has been on their website for years. Personally, I've never had an issue with TS-13 gloss clear used over any Tamiya TS paints, but that just could be my luck. I use Tamiya almost exclusively as it’s the main brand here in Australia. I’m quite comfortable using their sprays. TS-13 needs to be used in light coats then build up to a wetter coat. This cautious approach usually brings good results for me. The problem with my Olds was my own stupidity. The TS-8 red has a level of translucency that I wasn’t aware of until I tried to cover some black Overspray on the side of the body. On most other colours this wouldn’t be a problem, but with red, big mistake, because it was a beautiful day for painting, l kept piling on the coats hoping it would cover the black and all l succeeded in doing was creating a goopy mess. Checked the Olds body this morning and I’m confident that I can save it. Thanks everyone for weighing in with advice, I appreciate it. ?? 2
STU111 Posted October 17, 2024 Author Posted October 17, 2024 The Olds came out of it okay. It’ll go on the back burner, I’ll clean up the body and get it ready to paint again during the next winter. In the meantime , I’ll check online and see what colours the 71 442 came in. I think I’ll give red a miss. ? 2
styromaniac Posted October 17, 2024 Posted October 17, 2024 12 hours ago, STU111 said: I use Tamiya almost exclusively as it’s the main brand here in Australia. I’m quite comfortable using their sprays. TS-13 needs to be used in light coats then build up to a wetter coat. This cautious approach usually brings good results for me. The problem with my Olds was my own stupidity. The TS-8 red has a level of translucency that I wasn’t aware of until I tried to cover some black Overspray on the side of the body. On most other colours this wouldn’t be a problem, but with red, big mistake, because it was a beautiful day for painting, l kept piling on the coats hoping it would cover the black and all l succeeded in doing was creating a goopy mess. Checked the Olds body this morning and I’m confident that I can save it. Thanks everyone for weighing in with advice, I appreciate it. ?? Thanks for your post. Getting a nice finish paint job has been my Achilles Heel for quite a few years now...I envy those modelers who achieve a "miles deep" show quality paint job. I gravitated to Tamiya rattle cans myself a while back because with a little experience I've been able to build up suitably glossy paint finishes and have been satisfied just polishing out and waxing. I've been hesitant to top them off with the cear coats..having been satisfied with the look " as is ". I have purchased a few cans of both TS-13 as well as the Testor's Extreme Laquer " Wet Look Clear " and have yet to try them out..fearing the talk of hot solvents damaging the finish, yellowing ...and decal eating. Think I might try your suggestion of building up a clear coat by misting first...then applying a gradually heavier coats. Any tips on length of time between the coats?
DJMar Posted October 17, 2024 Posted October 17, 2024 6 hours ago, STU111 said: In the meantime , I’ll check online and see what colours the 71 442 came in. I think I’ll give red a miss. ? Colors marked with * are Toronado only, but AFAIK, all other colors were available for the 442 in '71. 1
STU111 Posted October 18, 2024 Author Posted October 18, 2024 12 hours ago, styromaniac said: Thanks for your post. Getting a nice finish paint job has been my Achilles Heel for quite a few years now...I envy those modelers who achieve a "miles deep" show quality paint job. I gravitated to Tamiya rattle cans myself a while back because with a little experience I've been able to build up suitably glossy paint finishes and have been satisfied just polishing out and waxing. I've been hesitant to top them off with the cear coats..having been satisfied with the look " as is ". I have purchased a few cans of both TS-13 as well as the Testor's Extreme Laquer " Wet Look Clear " and have yet to try them out..fearing the talk of hot solvents damaging the finish, yellowing ...and decal eating. Think I might try your suggestion of building up a clear coat by misting first...then applying a gradually heavier coats. Any tips on length of time between the coats? G’day Steve. I usually pop the can of TS-13 in some warm water for a few minutes and spray a light coat, wait around 20-30 minutes before applying another light coat, another 20 minutes and then apply a wetter final coat then l usually leave the body for around 2-4 weeks before polishing out with various grades of micro mesh cloth. Solid colours won’t really need TS-13, but metallics will benefit from it. If I’m using it over decals then I apply a slight ghost of a coat wait 2-3 weeks before applying another light mist coat wait 2-3 weeks then another slightly heavier coat building up to a final wet coat.The stripes on my 71 Duster were cleared with TS-13 using this method. It takes a lot of waiting between coats, but it will eat decals if applied too much and too soon, so being extra cautious is the key. I’m pretty comfortable using TS-13 now. Hope this helps you.?? 1 1
Moparman18064 Posted October 18, 2024 Posted October 18, 2024 (edited) A little help before you do repaint, try to get as much of that red off of there by sanding with really fine grits as possible. Any of that red is still the same enamel base that you had on there. If you left it as is, if you spray anything that is lacquer over it, could cause it to lift in those areas. It will save you a bunch of headaches.Edit: I’m sorry about that, I had posts mixed up. Edited October 18, 2024 by Moparman18064 Thinking of different post 1
DJMar Posted October 18, 2024 Posted October 18, 2024 10 hours ago, Moparman18064 said: A little help before you do repaint, try to get as much of that red off of there by sanding with really fine grits as possible. Any of that red is still the same enamel base that you had on there. If you left it as is, if you spray anything that is lacquer over it, could cause it to lift in those areas. It will save you a bunch of headaches. There is no enamel residue on that body, as the OP used Tamiya Italian Red over Tamiya pink primer. All lacquer. 1
Moparman18064 Posted October 18, 2024 Posted October 18, 2024 (edited) Terribly sorry about that. I had posts mixed up, was thinking about that Lambo build Edited October 18, 2024 by Moparman18064
STU111 Posted December 17, 2024 Author Posted December 17, 2024 The Olds is looking a little better now. After painstakingly removing all traces of my botched attempt to paint it some time back, I had another go at it. I really wanted to build it matador red with black stripes so with a little bit of trepidation I applied 4 coats of Tamiya TS-8 Italian red and this time I’m happy with the result. After applying the decals I’ve put a couple of mist coats of TS-13 clear over them and will slowly build up to a final wet coat . 4
johnyrotten Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 50 minutes ago, STU111 said: The Olds is looking a little better now. After painstakingly removing all traces of my botched attempt to paint it some time back, I had another go at it. I really wanted to build it matador red with black stripes so with a little bit of trepidation I applied 4 coats of Tamiya TS-8 Italian red and this time I’m happy with the result. After applying the decals I’ve put a couple of mist coats of TS-13 clear over them and will slowly build up to a final wet coat . Great job on the paint.
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