How "right to repair" and limited access to repair data and specs impacts EVERY owner of late-model vehicles

[Ace-Garageguy]

12 minutes ago, Rob Hall said:

I've heard of dealer-only parts and dealer-only tools.  I remember 25+ years ago when I had a BMW if I used brake pads not installed at the dealer the brake warning light would stay on, took a dealer specific tool or code to clear it IIRC. 

Competent aftermarket shops were able to deal with that issue almost immediately.

And the aftermarket has replicated most all the "dealer-only" special tools that were really necessary for decades.

I've personally made dozens of special "factory" tools for "exotic" cars too.

The more recent practice of manufacturers refusing to allow independent shops to access repair info is the issue in this thread.

Up until fairly recently, the databases for high-end scan tools used by competent independents were updated with repair info shortly after each new vehicle introduction.

Now, it's being actively withheld.

EDIT: For what it's worth, some high-end manufacturers, like Ferrari, were always reluctant (that's putting it nicely) to provide repair info and specs. And though it was inconvenient for those of us working in non-dealer shops, it was understandable at the time. Giving free access to information on wildly expensive and highly-tuned cars to lowest-common-denominator folks who would be challenged trying to get a tractor to run right wouldn't really be prudent.

But ALL of today's vehicles DEPEND on the correct functioning of their onboard electronics to even get across town.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Ace-Garageguy
accuracy

[iBorg]

The right to repair is an issue that affects a myriad of products. I had to replace the screen on an Apple laptop. Bought the part off of Amazon. Installed it and it worked except the color accuracy was off. I could spend $100 more for the parts from Apple and they would reset the screen via the internet. That's criminal. 

As for cars, it is quickly becoming where you can't work on them without some manufacturer reset. I have a 2012 Audi. My most used repair tool is my laptop and the software I bought to "talk" to the car. I'm sure other vehicles require similar interfaces. Fortunately I can buy the VAG-COM software. Without it, I couldn't afford to maintain the car.

[espo]

6 hours ago, Brutalform said:

The way I see this, is, fairly recently consumers were not running out and purchasing a new vehicle as soon as, or sometimes even before their current vehicle is paid off. The average vehicle in the US now is over 10 years old.  This caused a huge over stock of cars that were just sitting on lots. The manufacturers were loosing money and their minds, and so now here we are. It’s pretty sad that vehicles used for basic transportation for millions, now becomes another tool to steal money from people who are trying to make ends meet. And this is with almost everything. From refrigerators to tv sets, all made very cheap and designed to break. It’s hard to find any product that has real quality anymore. They have us all right where they want us. You can write your state rep, but that hardly ever works anymore, because their lined pockets are way more important than the people they represent. 

While I don't disagree with your thoughts on the subject, I think there are many reasons beyond what you have mentioned. This is only my thoughts based on my personal experiences, and I'm sure you and others have similar and different experiences as well. In my case before retiring I had been in the retail, dealership management, automotive business for a little over 30 years. Much of what you have put forth is true, but it is my feeling that the personal situations of the many retail consumers is a far greater factor than most my realize. The earning power and wages of so many in our society has not kept up with the increased cost of automobiles as well as day to day necessities. The length of vehicle ownership has increased for several reasons. I feel that the overall quality and durability of many automobiles have increased with time, but also the increased complexity has made them far more expensive when they do fail. Everyone has their own reasons for buying a new vehicle whether it is a desire for something new and shiny or a change in what they may need from a vehicle has changed. The financial aspect of buy a new or even a used or late model vehicle has to do with personal finances. Few are able to just write a check for a new car. Financing is usually a major consideration with buying a new car just like any large purchase. Over the years one thing I noticed is the increased feeling among consumers that they should just buy a new vehicle with little or no initial investment on their part including any sales tax or license fees that are required. As you pointed out this puts their equity position in that vehicle at a negative position for several years into the future if ever depending on the length of the contract and an economy of which they have no control over. With financing more difficult and expensive to obtain and in many cases getting a lender to also carry their negative equity from the old car onto the loan for the new car it doesn't take more than a purchase or two to and you would have no choice but to drive a car until it could be considered a classic. Manufactures have to keep the factories going since they have a fixed expense whether the factory is building cars or sitting idle. Dealerships have to make a scientific wild ass guess as to what consumers are going to want to buy and what they should have in stock or can afford in the future, not to mention what color or equipment the consumer will want. Manufacturers have started offering rebates and special financing programs again often based on what inventory they need to sell. This stimulates the retail sales, but in the long run they are stealing sales from the future for sales today. This is a very complex issue for the many in the street that just want a new car for whatever reason. The manufacturer that is trying to keep their business and plants running. The dealerships in many cases are trapped between the two and are struggling in many cases to make enough profit to pay the salaries and the overhead. I'm sure that there are many who wouldn't agree with that but put a pencil to what it costs to open a dealership and pay the overhead to keep it running. As mentioned, I have been the retail dealerships of a few different manufacturers in more than one state in our nation, and I still don't consider myself an expert by any means. One thing I have noticed through those years and dealerships was that the most successful dealerships had service and parts departments that were the true financial driver of the dealership, and the sales departments just created a customer base for them. This is only my thoughts and views based on what I have experienced, your experience may be different. 

[mikemodeler]

I have worked around automobiles and the automotive industry for 45 years (am I that old????) and the aftermarket industry has been fighting for years to have access to OE data- parts, diagnostic, schematics- to keep vehicle ownership somewhat affordable. The costs for a repair shop to have the current diagnostic equipment continues to rise every year as the complexity of the vehicles increases and more tools are needed. Add in the other costs of running a business and it's easy to see why many of the small, independent shops are disappearing or scaling back on what vehicles they will and won't work on. 

While some trades are still using tools and methods that previous generations used, automobile repair techs have had to continually update their equipment and training to be able to ply their trade and that has lead to higher repair costs, whether you go to the dealer or an independent repair shop.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

54 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

 

While some trades are still using tools and methods that previous generations used, automobile repair techs have had to continually update their equipment and training to be able to ply their trade and that has lead to higher repair costs, whether you go to the dealer or an independent repair shop.

 

For no, or very few, valid engineering or performance reasons, period.

I'm a mechanical engineer who happens to be a mechanic too, I have a lifetime's experience hands-on in the automobile biz (among other things), and I can explain MY point of view. Can anyone rationally explain the opposite view?

Allow me to elaborate. More complex engine management software that keeps emissions more tightly controlled, and adding hardware like direct-injection and variable cam timing DO NOT NECESSITATE VASTLY MORE EXPENSIVE TOOLS TO WORK ON.

The manufacturers are doing it from either gross incompetence or greed, pure and simple.

While you're thinking about it, can anybody tell me why a single headlamp assembly for a Porsche Cayenne is $6000-$8000...depending on the year and option package, and the module to run the damb thing is another $600?

We have one in the shop currently. If the minor front end hit had damaged a headlight, the thing would have totaled.

200MPH race cars ran LeMans quite successfully with H-4 lamps. Why does a commuter vehicle / mall trolley need over $17000 worth of forward lighting?

Edited 10 hours ago by Ace-Garageguy
punctiliousness

[mikemodeler]

6 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

For no, or very few, valid engineering or performance reasons, period.

I'm a mechanical engineer who happens to be a mechanic too, I have a lifetime's experience hands-on in the automobile biz (among other things), and I can explain MY point of view. Can anyone rationally explain the opposite view?

The manufacturers are doing it from either gross incompetence or greed, pure and simple.

While you're thinking about it, can anybody tell me why a single headlamp assembly for a Porsche Cayenne is $6000-$8000...depending on the year and option package, and the module to run the damb thing is another $600? We have one in the shop currently.

200MPH race cars ran LeMans quite successfully with H-4 lamps. Why does a commuter vehicle / mall trolley need over $17000 worth of forward lighting?

Can anyone rationally explain the opposite view?  The short answer is that engineers are constantly changing proven designs either due to regulations or trying to justify their existence. You must learn to remove logic when trying to figure out what the motives are as for most of the time, it isn't necessary.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

11 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Can anyone rationally explain the opposite view?  The short answer is that engineers are constantly changing proven designs either due to regulations or trying to justify their existence. You must learn to remove logic when trying to figure out what the motives are as for most of the time, it isn't necessary.

 

That right there is a scathing indictment of the industry.

GOOD engineers and rational engineering management shouldn't need to constantly reinvent the wheel to deal with incremental regulation changes.

And yes, in every industry that provides goods or services, the need to "justify their existence" is obvious in the constant useless tinkering with software, websites, and every manufactured product I can think of right off hand.

Edited 10 hours ago by Ace-Garageguy
punctiliousness

[Ace-Garageguy]

Speaking of dealers and 'technicians' and expensive tools, Ford's CEO had this to say:

"Ford’s CEO Jim Farley thinks America needs a wake-up call. Speaking on the Office Hours: Business Edition podcast, Farley said Ford had 5,000 open mechanic positions that it hasn’t been able to fill, despite an eye-popping $120,000 salary—nearly double the American worker’s median salary. And it’s not just Ford, added Farley. The carmaker’s struggle to fill jobs that require training and manual labor are indicative of a general shortage for manual-labor jobs in the U.S., he added. “We are in trouble in our country. We are not talking about this enough,” Farley told host Monica Langley. “We have over a million openings in critical jobs, emergency services, trucking, factory workers, plumbers, electricians, and tradesmen. It’s a very serious thing.” "

Bottom line, what I've been saying for years, and regularly being shouted down for by internet experts...nobody wants to do icky hands-on work today, even if it pays quite well. 

Maybe y'all'll believe HIM.

[Deathgoblin]

There are also unwanted features on cars that can cause problems.  Case in point: I have a 2020 Chevy Equinox with the autostop feature.  Every time it came to a stop while driving, it would shut off,  I can only imagine the wear on the starter and other engine components.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have the button on the dash to disable autostop, so there was no way to shut it off and it drove me nuts for weeks.  I ended up picking up a "hack" for the car.  Found there's a dongle cable that goes into the harness for the hood sensor.  Just unplug the sensor, plug in the dongle and plug into the sensor.   It appears to cause a minor fault with the sensor that disables the feature with no errors on the dash.  At least some cars can be hacked.    I do miss having a CD player, but there's ways around that too.