Cheating in Model Car Contests

[Karmodeler2]

Not Andy, but perhaps I can offer some perspective.

No matter if one orders "one off" machined or photoetched parts, or uses readily available machined or PE parts, it is up to the skills of the builder to ensure those parts look right on the finished model. It's the same with painting. If I hire you to paint my model, I'm not using my skills as I should, for the finished model, as defined by the rules.

Hey Mark,

You have the skills to build models. You also have some skills that you have chosen not to enhance. Perhaps you may not machine things, or make your own photo etch, but we all have those tools and kits available to us all. Whether we spend the money to acquire them is another topic. My point is, in your argument, you are still allowing a builder to buy something he does not have the skill to do (i.e. photo etch or machined items) while you say that the same builder could not buy a paint job when he does not have the skill to lay down a glass finish. Both of the above cases involve a builder "buying" a certain "skill" that he could not master, or had not taken the time to master. He will still have to use his skills to finish the model, so again I ask, what's the difference?

David

[Karmodeler2]

I have heard of and seen a few instances of cheating at contests AND NNLs. Yes, cheating at NNL events -

I have to commend the staff of the Toledo NNL this year for taking steps to correct a problem that made it easier for an entrant to cheat last year. This behavior is despicable and I have to agree with some other post on this topic: if you need a trophy that bad, go have one made that says you are the "Best Model Builder in the Universe".

And if you cheated to get it, does it really feel like you won it? Or do you have feelings when you decide to throw morals out the window and do anything you can "outside of the norm" to win a trophy? As long as there are contest for ANYTHING, you will have people cheating. That's life. It's up to us to either accept it or discipline those who are caught (i.e. ban them from contest and provide proof that the entrant had cheated to other clubs so they can be on the look out for the behavior too. You should also provide this to the entrant and inform them that they are being eliminated from the contest and prohibited for a year from entering in your show).

And yes, this is suppose to be fun!!

David

[Modelmartin]

Hey Andy,

Does this also apply to paint? and if not, why?

If some one wanted me to paint a car and paid me for it, then assembled it, why is that different than one guy getting machine parts that he paid for, then assembling the model?

The first guy did not paint the model, but had it done, while the second guy did not machine the parts, but had it done.

Each person paid for a particular aspect of the model...where is the difference?

David

Mark considers painting a model part of building it and the model must be built by the entrant. The idea was that even though only Russ was serious(nuts?) enough to buy the parts from Cody, as far as building the model went it was no different than if they were a production set of parts that were purchased through normal channels. The funny thing is that today we can buy all of the stuff that Russ had Cody machine for him. Actually we have more available now! I have spent about $200. on a Yamaha YZR and I am not done yet!(with buying stuff for it, not building!)

I understand Mark's reasoning. I didn't agree with it completely. I understand your argument that if a painter will paint for anyone it shouldn't matter but I don't agree with that either. To me painting is a critical part of building and as Harry said a contest is to judge the skills of the builder as evidenced by the quality of the model entered.

[Karmodeler2]

To me, painting is a basic skill one needs to become proficent at to attempt any build, box stock or detailed.

I would have to say that machining and doing your own photo etch needs to be skills one needs to become proficient at building detailed models.

I understand your side of this argument because you and I are on the same side. I was playing devil's advocate because this argument about "pre painted bodies by other than the builder" was posed to me by Gustuvson at Salt Lake 2 years ago and we had a good debate on the subject. I was wanting to see what others would have to say on the matter here on this forum. I can see the argument both ways, and would like to see more input.

I had a builder in Toledo this year ask me how much I would charge for a paint job? I never really gave him an answer because deep down, I don't know how he could take a body that I have painted, build the truck, and then enter it in a show as his own. My conscience would not let me do that.

One of my mentor's, Ricky Couch, had a model in Salt Lake (I think 4 years ago) and he had machined items that his friend Jerel Wolfe had done for him. Ricky put this on the info sheet for the model and credited Jerel for the work he had done. That's the gentleman's way of doing it.

And what if two builders scratch build a model using all the available skills between them? Do they enter it in the contest as a dual built model crediting the work of each builder and the parts that each made? And is there a problem with this? If both guys are top builders, and combine their skills to build a model,

what's the difference if they each put one model on the table that they built individually or put one model down that they both helped build?

David

[Karmodeler2]

I understand your argument that if a painter will paint for anyone it shouldn't matter but I don't agree with that either.

My argument is not as you stated. My argument is what is considered aftermarket (or lack of skill on the builder) and where do you draw the line. If I can purchase machine parts to enhance my model and I can purchase a paint job to enhance my model, then I have purchased something to make my model look better by buying skills I don't have. So why is paint a taboo and machined items not? (purchased ones that is)

If a market exist for machined items (or photo etch or resin or whatever) and a market exist for painted bodies, then where is there a difference. And if you are judging a builder on his skills, are you going to deduct points because he did not machine his parts but bought them, and would you credit points for him doing his own paint?

David

[Karmodeler2]

Prior to judging, when the models were being placed on the tables, a 1989 or 1990 Mustang GT was one of the models placed on the "Ford" section. Well, the builder had gone to great pains to replicate his 1/1 car, putting every detail & aftermarket part imaginable on the base kit, bringing in a photo album with pictures of his 1/1 car for reference, everything.

The scuttlebutt before judging was that he would win the "Ford" category hands down, & likely compete for Best Of Show.

The three models that finished 1st, 2nd & 3rd in that category were two 1969 Ford Talladegas, both built & detailed perfectly & properly, & a box stock 1949 Ford that had been so cleanly assembled, painted, paint detailed & foiled, that it looked as if it had been built in a sterile operating room.

I think I was at this show as I remember the mustang and the controversy over it. If the 49 Ford was a pick up, I think that was mine.......and thanks for the compliment....it's not a sterile operating room, but it's close!!.

David

[FloridaBoy]

Zinn and Sauber

Again to continue to personally criticize me is unacceptable and is tainting the intent of this post. You are attempting to divert the direction by engaging in a bline personal attack on a person who has the testicles to bring this to a point. Attack the one with an opinion, and Zinn, your little saying at the end of your posts bely your true attitude. You cloak a personal attack by standing behind your right to voice an opinion.

Yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder which I am proud of, as I stand up against things and practices I consider immoral, and cheating is still immoral the last time I checked, I do not need anger management as I never abuse or destroy things, and the most I do is offend those apathetics with my opinons and observations/facts which brought them to the forefront. As for being old, yep, I find myself a little more irascible, because I just don't walk on eggshells like when I was younger and trying to fit in. Now I would rather be right than be popular, and the honor is standing up for the conviction rather than cower behind the more easier route, and it is fashionable to attack the instigator.

I am a member of fotki and photobucket, but my photos of some of my work are in fotki. But after an evening of thinking about it, why am I going to work just because a couple of yokels challenged me? Frankly, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on either of your shoes. God, that felt good.

I am already in the process of putting all of the fotki pictures on my facebook website where it can be accessed and this forum or magazine doesn't have to do anything to increase my MB attachment space. Besides putting my pictures in my facebook site would allow my sons and his college roommates to see my work, where there was considerable interest, where I have more motivation to please a small percentage of syncopants on this forum.

As for throwing a contest, this forum has been an educator. I sincerely brought this topic up to clean house a little by giving you all some awareness, and when you see it address it, and it will work little by little for more attendance and hopefuly in contests. But as usual on this forum, which has happened twice to me, I get personally attacked for an issue I stand up for by a very small minded person who has no ability to inarticulate an intelligent responseoe and finds it easy to generate a personal attack on the initiator, just like a little old lady at a bridge game spreading gossip.

I will have my all of my photos posted on facebook by Saturday at the latest, and since you are so eager, you can just access my page and browse. If you attack me there, my "friends" will have suitable responses.

Yhe real tragedy here is the alarmingly higher percentage of those who are either apathetic, or militantly apathetic by just digging its head in the sand, or those who condone cheating, or rationalize it. If the model car building population is anything like that percentage on this forum, I would be wasting my time on any effort to organize a contest.

I will now go and wretch about the state of this hobby. Most of you are making great builds and I encourage you to continue, just stock up on kits, as I am seeing 1971 all over again. There will be no contest, which ain't any big deal as there aren't any apparently planned at this time. A cheater/organizer ruined this area.

So Sauber and Zinn, if you treat others at contests like you treat some, you are part of the problem rather than the solution. I could care less proving myself to either or any of you, so Saturday you can see my work on facebook, and Sunday have fun ripping it apart. Now you have power.

As for me, I am fed up with a large percentage of people since the personal attack, and the general apathetic attitude. You can criticize my ideas any day of the week, but to go after me with a boguy pshchological evaluation without the benefit of any degree, have fun.

As for me, I will be gone from this forum for a while until at least I finish wretching.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Modelmartin]

My argument is not as you stated. My argument is what is considered aftermarket (or lack of skill on the builder) and where do you draw the line. If I can purchase machine parts to enhance my model and I can purchase a paint job to enhance my model, then I have purchased something to make my model look better by buying skills I don't have. So why is paint a taboo and machined items not? (purchased ones that is)

If a market exist for machined items (or photo etch or resin or whatever) and a market exist for painted bodies, then where is there a difference. And if you are judging a builder on his skills, are you going to deduct points because he did not machine his parts but bought them, and would you credit points for him doing his own paint?

David

We could go to the extreme(which I only do to illutsrate a point) and deduct points because we did not injection mold our own parts! If we took that line of thinking out a ways only scratchbuilt models would get points.

Painting is a part of model building and assembling. I won't buy the argument that it is something purchased just like P/E or machined parts. Parts is parts!

[Karmodeler2]

We could go to the extreme(which I only do to illutsrate a point) and deduct points because we did not injection mold our own parts! If we took that line of thinking out a ways only scratchbuilt models would get points.

Painting is a part of model building and assembling. I won't buy the argument that it is something purchased just like P/E or machined parts. Parts is parts!

Thanks for you input Andy, I was interested in what you had to say. Thanks!

David

[FloridaBoy]

Mr. Willaman i've proven my point and you did exactly as i thought you would. there is always an excuse from you as to why you can't do something and it's always someone elses fault, never yours. i never attacked you, i challenged you. you are unwilling, Willaman to post examples of your work here or are you scared? scared that maybe your "contest" winning models arent what you stood up on your soapbox and said they were.

if you have both Photobucket and Fotki then you should have no problems or issues posting pics from either of those sites here or anywhere else on the web. your MB excuse holds no water.

it's people and personalities like you that taint this hobby.

Dave

Zinn, I prefer to refer to you by your last name as that is my way of showing disrespect. I could care less about your

"challenge" which to everyone on this thread is a veiled attempt to set me up, with me reacting like a little puppy to your whims, of which you demonstrate colossal ignorance. I do not make excuses, I find other means, which I am doing now.

To you, showing a model car on this forum is the testament of a man, and gives you the right to attack others, and you call me a taint to the hobby. I even "challenged" you to contact Model Car Garage and find out about me, for you don't even know who I am, but willing to make assumptions all over the place.

I am not going to ask Gregg to make available more MB space for me, as that would take time. What I plan to do today is to get those god d$#%$#%#mn photos downloaded just to shut you and your ilk up. I don't attack people unless attacked first. If in the unfortunate situation we inadvertently meet at a major contest, pardon me in advance I refuse to shake your hand, or even acknowledge your presence. I would prefer if possible to keep your %^^%$%#$ mouth shut and that goes to your butt boy Sauber. Right this minute I am working off my fotki.com album page, which only has part of my finished and works in progress.

Should you wish to critique it, I don't give a ######, to quote Jack Nicholson.

Frankly, I am a little grateful as you and Sauber gave me quite a clear picture about the putrid state of model cars -- which is if you disagree with me, I will attack you in person. Very Jerry Springerlike. With my background, I learned to deal with bottom dwellers is to get at the bottom of the ditch and deal with them.

I am quitting this mess, and leaving this forum for as long as I want, to get rid of the taint of model car culture you have contributed to. So, Gregg, excuse me for my ire, it was he who opened the window. Zinn, be careful when making assumptions about people's character, you are so far off -- you are nominated for the Andy Dick School of Psychoanalysts.

As soon as I can get these pictures not for you, but in spite of you, and I never back down from a do able dare, you are sort of "got" because I manned up to show my stuff, and if you blast it, or have your butt boys do it, it puts your integrity in question, which I have done, to show you have a vendetta against anything you say about my work or me.

It is you who dug your own hole, which is where you belong.

Gregg, please close this thread when I post my pictures. I know you and Harrypri as moderators are watching and monitoring this closely. It felt good to get mad and raise the blood, as it is done on a somewhat private thread, and would never occur on the floor of a model car event, at least on my behalf.

It is a very sad state of affairs when a guy who intends to improve the local model car environment by exposing cheating which is designed to keep the bad boys honest, but then someone has to resort to a personal attack on page 4 after everything was going OK. I was warned earlier via emails by several people on this forum about other certain people ready to pounce on someone who dares to express and opinion. I am enjoying the adrenaline rush from being angry with you, but really disappointed with the rest of the forum that so many supported or rationalized cheating or breaking rules. That is the real reason I am done, not some petty syncophants. My love for the hobby continues despite the culture around here, and on some parts of this forum, and I will continue to build alone like I have during the bleak periods of model car history down here, which if not addressed sometime soon, will most assuredly occur again. I've been there twice and see the same factors again, only this time I am well stocked in kits and supplies to occupy me for the rest of my life.

Just remember, every time you hear of a contest being cancelled, or a hobby shop closing, just hear my words in the background to the tune of the movie theme "Memories", me saying, "I told you so".

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman