Fog Lights

[beefheart22]

Here's something that's been bothering me and maybe somebody can help me out:

Although I see the majority of newer vehicles up here running clear fog lights (some running them in my rear-view on a clear night), but on older vehicles, I see a mix mash of clear and amber with all shades in between. A lot of times I've seen amber fog lights on the same make/model/year of a vehicle that also have been seen running clear.

Just curious if this was trim, style options, a regional thing, aftermarket add-on, or what? I'm always stumped when it comes time to put fog lamps on my builds as to whether or not they should be clear or amber.

Edited December 16, 2009 by beefheart22

[CAL]

You can blame it on the French: a long and envolved story, which is partly scentific, partly political, partly regulatory, and partly industrial/manufacturing.

But basically it largely comes down to nobody doing quality "Selective Yellow" bulbs any longer, and is why you see a variety of shades. Because there was little or no demand for "Selective Yellow" bulbs (because of the French stopped requiring them for headlamps) alternate lens materials were used but often not the same as a Selective Yellow bulb. While a aftermarket company could cheat by simply making an amber lens tossing a white bulb in them and calling it a fog lamp manufacturers had stricter guildlines to follow so they made a correct white lamp fog/driving light.

Edited December 15, 2009 by CAL

[vizio93]

The clear ones, you can get aftermarket. I was looking in a Mercedes catalog for my 1988 300e and there was a company selling the clear ones for my model. Part of the explanation about them said that the clear ones would give your car that European style look. I don't see how they would change the look very much, but I guess it would make it look a little more modern...? my 2 cents

[CAL]

The clear ones, you can get aftermarket. I was looking in a Mercedes catalog for my 1988 300e and there was a company selling the clear ones for my model. Part of the explanation about them said that the clear ones would give your car that European style look. I don't see how they would change the look very much, but I guess it would make it look a little more modern...? my 2 cents

Yeah, but the Euro look still goes back to the French and what I mentioned before.

It is really the lack of good approprate bulbs that triggered all this nonsense.

[beefheart22]

Sorry guys, please bear with me. If I got this straight, for the most part the older cars usually sported clear lenses with amber bulbs? So for most of my builds of 60s/70s era cars I can probably get away with clear fog lenses?

[Harry P.]

From Car Talk.com:

Tom: So the question becomes, to yellow or not to yellow? There's a lot of debate about this, but the research says that yellow lights are no better than white lights at penetrating fog. The theory bandied about was that yellow light has a longer wavelength and is therefore less likely to be reflected by the fog particles. Turns out, this is complete poppycock.

Ray: Apparently, the fog particles themselves are so big that they reflect all colors of light. Basically, all light bounces off of them, so using yellow light instead of white light gives you no advantage.

Tom: Plus, in order to get yellow light, what fog-light manufacturers do is put a yellow lens over a white light. That cuts your light output by 20 percent to 30 percent, which is counterproductive.

[CAL]

Sorry guys, please bear with me. If I got this straight, for the most part the older cars usually sported clear lenses with amber bulbs? So for most of my builds of 60s/70s era cars I can probably get away with clear fog lenses?

Yes and no.

The best fog lamp was a yellow glass lens with a yellow-pass dichroic filter most often on the bulb itself. But it could be done with a couple of ways, but almost always a yellow lens with a yellow bulb with a factory type lamp.

Toss out everything that should or shouldn't be with aftermarket lamps, especially the Asian attempt at dichroic lamps which deffract the light off mirrors and doesn't absorbe or filter the light. It doesn't work because you cannot direct the light where you want it to go, and there is a very specific pattern of light that makes a fog lamp most effective. In addition they only work in certian conditions.

A good set of true fog lamps up until the late 80s 90s would have been yellow. A cheap set of aftermarket lamps would have been perhaps white.

However not all those lamps you see are necessarily fog lamps. They could be driving lights, which are white, or what are often called auxiliary lamp. Technically any additional white lamp is to be considered a driving light. The confusion may come from the nomenclature across the A/M markets and people just not really knowing what is really what. Especially in the States: The Europeans usually do something for a specific reason whereas in the States it's done because it cool and aesthetic.

Fog lamps are for a very specific condition for a very specific reason and designed in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. In the States people just toss any old yellow lamp on the front of the car call it a fog light and are always on becuase it looks cool without have any clue as if they are even a true fog lamp or how to set them up... because location is also very specific.

They are for use at low speed to cut down glare in poor nighttime visibility situations. They do not cut into fog, haze or snow, you wont see any farther down the road, in fact probably less further, and don't reflect or refract the light. It has to do with the way the eye works with light across the spectrum aginst a black background.

[CAL]

From Car Talk.com:

Tom: So the question becomes, to yellow or not to yellow? There's a lot of debate about this, but the research says that yellow lights are no better than white lights at penetrating fog. The theory bandied about was that yellow light has a longer wavelength and is therefore less likely to be reflected by the fog particles. Turns out, this is complete poppycock.

Ray: Apparently, the fog particles themselves are so big that they reflect all colors of light. Basically, all light bounces off of them, so using yellow light instead of white light gives you no advantage.

Tom: Plus, in order to get yellow light, what fog-light manufacturers do is put a yellow lens over a white light. That cuts your light output by 20 percent to 30 percent, which is counterproductive.

Yes partly true. It's not about the light and what its reflecting off of. It is about how the eye deals with the light against the black background and taking out the blue by use of yellow lights lessens the workload of the eye by reducing glare. Where as blue and white was show to have up to 46% more glare than yellow, which strains the eye further.

So to a degree what they are saying is true from the direction they are attacking it at, but they are wrong about the advantages because they failed to take it that additional step forward into why yellow fog lamps over white.

[beefheart22]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to bring up the debate of what is better in real life application. My bad for not being specific enough.

I'm talking about builds. As in my 1:24 and 1:25 plastic cars. You know, the stuff we build on this website. When I'm ready to glue on my little itty-bitty fog lamps, what color would the lenses have originally been on a 60s/70s era car? My instructions always say amber, but I have a hard time believing all factory cars in that era came out with amber tinted fog/parking lenses.

As for the real life application of fog lamps, all shades suck and are generally used by pea-brains who think they increase visibility at night.

Edited December 16, 2009 by beefheart22

[CAL]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to bring up the debate of what is better in real life application. My bad for not being specific enough.

I'm talking about builds. As in my 1:24 and 1:25 plastic cars. You know, the stuff we build on this website. When I'm ready to glue on my little itty-bitty fog lamps, what color would the lenses have originally been on a 60s/70s era car? My instructions always say amber, but I have a hard time believing all factory cars in that era came out with amber tinted fog/parking lenses.

Fog Lamps Yellow

Driving Lamps White

[beefheart22]

They don't increase my visibility of my surroundings; they increase YOUR visibility of me.

Mine are on 100% of the time. Don't like it? don't drive @ night.

I've seen too many accidents in my life caused by the other guy not being able to see the car they pulled out in front of because of lighting. I'd rather you be able to see me & know exactly where I am than to just guess as to how far / fast is that car coming.

As far as in the rear view, both driving lights & fog lights are meant to be mounted low (AKA under the front bumper). if they are blinding you from behind with them A. they aren't adjusted properly B. they are mounted in a poor spot (Grand Cherokees come to mind) or C. you have sensitivity to light. I suggest an auto dimming mirror.

Oh yeah, Since I have one of those Wacky Euro-cars, I have a Fog Light for the rear end too, which is only on in bad weather, or if I have someone following me (on purpose).

back on topic - do a google search for pics of the car you are modeling. 9 times out of ten, you can find zillions of reference pictures & paint your whatever accordingly.

Thanks pea-brain.

[CAL]

Thanks pea-brain.

clearly a moron.

[CAL]

I believe that's poppycock myself. I've had both driving lights and fog lights. The amber fog lights are way better than driving lights in fog.

Yeah, the Car Talk guys are wrong, who also doesn't understand the yellow light concept.

Here is a technical paper on the subject, and explains in much more detail the reason for yellow fog lamps. They are actually discussing headlamps the principle is the same, which goes back to... I donno 1936 or so.

http://www.lightingresearch.org/programs/t...001-01-0320.pdf

and if you are really really interested there are two more research papers at Mich State Uni on the subject, a survey that shows +90% of Americans improperly use fog lamps, and a brief explanation from lighting expert Daniel Sterns.

but only if your really really interested in the truth behind yellow fog lamps.

Edited December 16, 2009 by CAL

[B-dub]

HIDS and smoked fogs for me

never need the actual performance of the amber ayway and the hids are bright enough to light everything up light daylight so no need for anything else.. but kind of cool about the logic of the amber lights being better etc. I never really knew why they were like that

Edited December 16, 2009 by B-dub

[CAL]

HIDS and smoked fogs for me

never need the actual performance of the amber ayway and the hids are bright enough to light everything up light daylight so no need for anything else.. but kind of cool about the logic of the amber lights being better etc. I never really knew why they were like that

I am a big fan of HIDs, and being nearly the same color temp as daylight, but completely different concept; they are actually worse than yellow lights for what yellow light is trying to achieve. Blue and white fall at the worse end of the scale with reguards to glare and eye strain.

[CAL]

WOW. you guys are harsh. Especially you, Nathan. I'd love to show everyone your PM to me, But I don't want to be banned from the message board.

EDIT--> Second PM to me landed you on my ignore list. I hope you find joy in the fact that you are the very first person to be added to my Ignore list. I wouldn't associate with someone like you in real life, I certainly won't do it here. You have a stellar attitude, Especially towards people whom you don't even know. I can't believe that you actually eat with that mouth...

Again, I refer to my car's owners manual, Which states that my car is equipped with DRIVING LIGHTS, which I use while I'm DRIVING. they are White in color with White bulbs, mounted in the lowest position below the bumper as possible.

Actually I think you are the one that came off a little hard in the first place, and had very little to do with the discussion at hand.

No harm no foul.

Cheers

[CAL]

Chris, you seem reasonable to get along with, since you didn't come back @ me with both guns blazing & language that would make a sailor blush...

I will admit that after re-reading what I wrote, I was a bit harsh & perhaps should have chosen my words was bit more carefully. However, the discussion @ hand progressed from "what color should the fog lights be?" to a highly technical descriptive nature of why "Yellow or White" to a rapidly downward spiral leading to a summary statement of " All people who drive @ night w/ fog lights on are idiots ". I took offense to that & felt that I needed to express why someone of little mental capacity, such as myself, would ever drive around with this offensive lighting. Like I said, I admit I was a bit harsh with my commentary.

All that being said, @ the end of my first post, I suggested to google image search the vehicle that is being replicated, & I'm sure that more than enough reference material will be found. I know it helps me immensely.

no problem.

I guess I a little more sensitive to lights and American vs. European car culture. My dad was in Germany in the 50s for a several years and worked on Porsches, he also had gone to the GM technical institute and later open an indy Porsche shop, which later spun off the fairly well known Kellymoss racing, who won all the Firehawk races in the 1980s, so that is where I know all this trivial nonsense. It really used to annoy the hell out of me how ingnorant people here in the states really are about cars in general.

Jeremy Clarkson summed it up pretty well with, "People who are not good at something general don't do it, and Americans do everything else but drive when they are driving: talk on the phone, apply makeup, eat, drink, etc. So they must not be any good at because they dont drive when they are driving."

In my old age I have become more tolerant of car ingnorance.

Not that I am an expert or anything.