For the 30's era kits. Questions

[Gramps46]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:40 PM, bbowser said:

I went on a quest a few years ago to add the 1/24-25 '30s era kits to the collection.  I really like the Monogram kits, decent parts count,  faithful lines.  The MPC kits are kind of fiddly but you can end up with a nice replica.  The AMT Model T's are also very nice, even tho their from the teens and '20s.  The Heller kits are a little quirky (read French) but offer cars that no one else does.  The Johan Gold Cup series are especially nice.  Here's a few I've built.

All  your builds are fabulous but this is the first Alfa Romeo 8C00 I have seen built other than my own and your is gorgeous.  Mine was a Union kit and the labeling and box art are incorrect but fortunately the kit is actually the 1931 Le Mans winner.  It was only recently that I learned the wheels should be painted black as you did.

[Richard Bartrop]

19 minutes ago, 89AKurt said:

But..... but the box says: "Certified as authentic by the Bugatti Owners Club Ltd. of England."  You one of those rivet counters I hear about?    That's awesome information, that would guarantee I never get it built.  Just making realistic engine-turned aluminum parts would be a death wish.  If I built it, looks good enough to do Box Stock, but I would strip the chrome off the wheels and paint Alclad aluminum.

I'm sure the good folks at Monogram made a very authentic replica of a Bugatti Type 35 as it existed in the mid 60's, and there are still Type 35's like that today  The later model wheels are lighter, stronger, and better looking than the original, so it's no surprise that many Type 35 owners made the upgrade.   How many 240Z's do you see with the original hubcaps?   Just for comparison, here's a stock Type 35B.

Like anything in modeling, it comes down to how much effort you want to spend on these things.  Personally, I'd still snap up the Monogram Bugatti if the opportunity arose.

 

[89AKurt]

21 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I'm sure the good folks at Monogram made a very authentic replica of a Bugatti Type 35 as it existed in the mid 60's, and there are still Type 35's like that today  The later model wheels are lighter, stronger, and better looking than the original, so it's no surprise that many Type 35 owners made the upgrade.   How many 240Z's do you see with the original hubcaps?   Just for comparison, here's a stock Type 35B.

[...]

Like anything in modeling, it comes down to how much effort you want to spend on these things.  Personally, I'd still snap up the Monogram Bugatti if the opportunity arose.

 

I feel lucky that I recently got that kit!  The 240Z, I noticed the Revell kit's mags are not correct either.  LOL

[tim boyd]

20 hours ago, 89AKurt said:

I feel lucky that I recently got that kit!  The 240Z, I noticed the Revell kit's mags are not correct either.  LOL

Sorry to further contribute to us getting off topic, but the original Revell Datsun 240Z kit release in the US reflected exactly the way nearly all 240Z's were being sold by Datsun dealers in the US market.  That is, the Revell kit simply reflected the reality of the US marketplace in that many, perhaps even most 240Z's left the showroom floor with those tasty (for the time) five hole slot mags as seen in the kit 

There were two reasons for this 1) the JDM Fairlady wheel covers were carried over to the US market and they were beyond hokey in their design; undermining the beautiful design execution of the rest of the car from a US market buyer perspective and 2) 240Z's were mega-hot in the marketplace, so dealers were doing all they could to add "extras" to bump the selling price and dealer margins, and those five-hole slot mages were a great step in that direction.  I'm not enough of an authority to know if the five slot mags were a Datsun-supported accessory or whether this was primarily a distributor or dealer driven initiative.  Anybody else know?  But at the time, there were few cars on the road with the visual appeal of the 240Z with those mags, not to mention at the selling price point (even after all those Added Dealer Markup accessories.)  

As for the wheels on the Monogram Bugatti kit, at the time the kit was first introduced in the mid 1960's, it was lauded as a superb example of a kit replicating the real car.  At the time and even now, I never knew the wheels were not OEM spec, and I suspect few other kit purchasers did either.  Funny how time changes perspectives, huh?  

TIM 

 

[89AKurt]

1 hour ago, tim boyd said:

Sorry to further contribute to us getting off topic, ... tasty (for the time) five hole slot mags as seen in the kit 

... those five-hole slot mages were a great step in that direction.  ...  Funny how time changes perspectives, huh?  

TIM 

 

Sorry to go rivet counter on you, but the example Revell has on the box, and the kit, are SIX slot mags.  Time change to now, with the internet to find pictures, pretty much all examples I saw do have the FIVE slot mags, which was the typical number for Ansen style wheels, thus why I said they are incorrect.  I got a set for my '69 Chevy pickup this summer, apparently Toyota trucks are the same bolt pattern, but 3 of mine were made by Shelby (long eBay story for another discussion) with 5 holes.

Now back to the Bugatti, the coolest part is the simulated leather for the spare and seat belts!

[Richard Bartrop]

2 hours ago, tim boyd said:

As for the wheels on the Monogram Bugatti kit, at the time the kit was first introduced in the mid 1960's, it was lauded as a superb example of a kit replicating the real car.  At the time and even now, I never knew the wheels were not OEM spec, and I suspect few other kit purchasers did either.  Funny how time changes perspectives, huh?  

TIM 

 

Near as I can tell, Type 35 owners were making the swap as soon as the new wheels were available, and Monogram was by no means the only one to release a type 35 model that way.  Those wheels certainly look right, and since it was such a common swap,  it's not that surprising that people thought that was how it was supposed to look.

For the longest time, I never knew that Jo-han's excellent V-16 Cadillac lot has the wrong taillights.

Here's what they're supposed to be

And for comparison, the taillights on the Jo-han kit are the ones used on the V-8 and V-12 models

 

I guess at some point you just have to trust you're getting the right information.

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Richard Bartrop

[sfhess]

2 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Sorry to further contribute to us getting off topic, but the original Revell Datsun 240Z kit release in the US reflected exactly the way nearly all 240Z's were being sold by Datsun dealers in the US market.  That is, the Revell kit simply reflected the reality of the US marketplace in that many, perhaps even most 240Z's left the showroom floor with those tasty (for the time) five hole slot mags as seen in the kit 

There were two reasons for this 1) the JDM Fairlady wheel covers were carried over to the US market and they were beyond hokey in their design; undermining the beautiful design execution of the rest of the car from a US market buyer perspective and 2) 240Z's were mega-hot in the marketplace, so dealers were doing all they could to add "extras" to bump the selling price and dealer margins, and those five-hole slot mages were a great step in that direction.  I'm not enough of an authority to know if the five slot mags were a Datsun-supported accessory or whether this was primarily a distributor or dealer driven initiative.  Anybody else know?  But at the time, there were few cars on the road with the visual appeal of the 240Z with those mags, not to mention at the selling price point (even after all those Added Dealer Markup accessories.)  

As for the wheels on the Monogram Bugatti kit, at the time the kit was first introduced in the mid 1960's, it was lauded as a superb example of a kit replicating the real car.  At the time and even now, I never knew the wheels were not OEM spec, and I suspect few other kit purchasers did either.  Funny how time changes perspectives, huh?  

TIM 

 

If all you got in dealer add-ons for your 240Z was alloy wheels you were lucky.  Many dealerships afflicted Zs with vinyl tops and luggage racks nd Porsche-ish side stripes.

 

[tim boyd]

2 hours ago, 89AKurt said:

Sorry to go rivet counter on you, but the example Revell has on the box, and the kit, are SIX slot mags.  Time change to now, with the internet to find pictures, pretty much all examples I saw do have the FIVE slot mags, which was the typical number for Ansen style wheels, thus why I said they are incorrect.  I got a set for my '69 Chevy pickup this summer, apparently Toyota trucks are the same bolt pattern, but 3 of mine were made by Shelby (long eBay story for another discussion) with 5 holes.

Now back to the Bugatti, the coolest part is the simulated leather for the spare and seat belts!

Kurt....no worries and thanks for the correction.....I looked for more details earlier in this thread but assumed incorrectly that you were referencing the original wheelcovers..  I sure remember the 1/1 scale 240'z in my part of the country having five slot mags and I thought the original Revell kit box art also showed them, but your built kit is pretty clear in that regards.  Still want to find my original issue kit and see what's inside......TIM 

[Richard Bartrop]

I think it's also important to remember that in the mid 60s when these kits were being created,  the classic car hobby, while strong, hadn't reached the level of outright crazy it achieved in later years.   There were certainly books on the subject, but a lot of the scholarly tomes that would be the definitive reference were still years in the future, so while the information may have been out there, it just wasn't in a readily accessible form. 

And sorry for derailing the subject with the 240Z example in the first place.   The point was it was a modern example of a 40 year old classic with less than classic footwear that was almost universally upgraded.

[Robberbaron]

12 hours ago, 89AKurt said:

Sorry to go rivet counter on you, but the example Revell has on the box, and the kit, are SIX slot mags.  Time change to now, with the internet to find pictures, pretty much all examples I saw do have the FIVE slot mags, which was the typical number for Ansen style wheels, thus why I said they are incorrect...

 

10 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Kurt....no worries and thanks for the correction.....I looked for more details earlier in this thread but assumed incorrectly that you were referencing the original wheelcovers..  I sure remember the 1/1 scale 240'z in my part of the country having five slot mags and I thought the original Revell kit box art also showed them, but your built kit is pretty clear in that regards.  Still want to find my original issue kit and see what's inside......TIM 

Looks like American Dragmasters - not incorrect, just oddball.  (Note that this was a different manufacturer than American Racing.)  I believe they were more commonly put on VW's back in the day.  Apparently the 6-slot look was popular enough that no-name knock-offs were also sold.

They were also available as 5-lug,  14" and 15" diameters, in all sorts of widths.  Doesn't seem like there's any version that's common anymore.  Pretty much a forgotten manufacturer.  The H.A.M.B. and TheSamba have a couple of threads on them, if anyone wants to learn more.

I admit I've got a bit of a kink for them, just because they're different.

[89AKurt]

10 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

[...]

And sorry for derailing the subject with the 240Z example in the first place.   The point was it was a modern example of a 40 year old classic with less than classic footwear that was almost universally upgraded.

No need to apologize, I'm actually learning something here.  It's funny that this original topic was about classic CLASSICS that are 80+ years old.

Robberbarron:  Thank you for setting me straight too.  I'm sure there are wheel experts who know who started the slotted mag design, and who copied.  The source in Washington state where I got a matching wheel must know.  Here is my "classic" '69 Chevy with refurbished 5 hole mags.  Which reminds me, I should track down a set for my model.....

Now back to our regularly scheduled program, *real* CLASSIC cars, 1930s.