Just Wondering About The Confederate Flag...

[JAFFA]

Hi, ill just get right to my question, i know it aint really modelcar-related, but i hope its allright, this just happens to be the only place i know there are alot of Americans to ask about it..

Over here, in Sweden, the confederat flag is a symbold of the so-called "Rockabilly Rebel" aka raggare/ragger lifestyle,

so its just a common thing to see in connection to American cars and good music, (not that sh*t that the average Joe listens to, but real good Rock'nRoll!)

But back in USA im told its a completely different thing, wich sounds reasonable, but what i wonder is WHAT, and how do people look at the single star banner and the confederate one?

[camaroman]

I am going to "Hazzard" a reply to this post.

I grew up in the south and still make my home here.

As a youth I took much pride in the fact that my state

still flew the Rebel battle flag even though over 100 years

had past since the wars end.

I now understand that the stars and bars on the Georgia

state flag was less about honoring the long dead confedaracy

as its was more about an attempt to silence a long overdue

rightingof wrongs and an end to prejudice.

In other words a symbol of the past had been co-opted by

the Klu Klux Klan and likeminded individuals, in much the same

way the Nazis co-opted that ancient Indian symbol for their

evil ways

I will still build the General Lee with the Stars and Bars,

but now for the sake of accuracy. not ignorance.

BTW I am more Proud of the current Georgia flag that Honors

a Flag that pre dated the Battle Flag.

Edited January 31, 2008 by camaroman

[bobss396]

I'm from up north and to me the confederate flag just reminds the world that the south is 0-1 in CIVIL WARS!

Generally it means different things to different people depending on where you live in the US. It is definitely a holdover from the 1861-1865 Civil War era.

Up north it is looked down on more as a "redneck" symbol and people that live in ramshackle house trailers with a still in the shed and 2 major appliances out on the front porch. Not to mention a lack of a dental plan and 3 motor vehicles up on blocks on the fromt lawn rusting to pieces.

I hope that I haven't alienated anyone!

Bob

[camaroman]

I'm from up north and to me the confederate flag just reminds the world that the south is 0-1 in CIVIL WARS!

Generally it means different things to different people depending on where you live in the US. It is definitely a holdover from the 1861-1865 Civil War era.

Up north it is looked down on more as a "redneck" symbol and people that live in ramshackle house trailers with a still in the shed and 2 major appliances out on the front porch. Not to mention a lack of a dental plan and 3 motor vehicles up on blocks on the fromt lawn rusting to pieces.

I hope that I haven't alienated anyone!

Bob

Still Bob,

It is amazing that it took the Union four years to subdue the Confederacy,

even though the "numbers"(Manpower, Manufactoring, and an already standing Army)

were on their side.

[JAFFA]

Thank you for the good replies boys!

I guess most of my assumptions was right, but i still wouldnt walk down the streets of Harlem with a big Stars and Bars tatto on my neck tho.. lol

Someone made a comment about the flag being a redneck symbol, that applies here too... lol, we take pride in it!!

[old-hermit]

History has a tendancy to be muddied over time.

The flag everybody has an obsession with was never used as a national flag of the Confederacy.

There are still VERY strong feelings in the South over this issue.

And don't forget, the history books are written by the victors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_...ates_of_America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_S...es.27_rights.22

Edited January 31, 2008 by old-hermit

[Darin Bastedo]

As a Mohawk I see the Confederate flag as a symbol of white people fighting over who gets to keep the land that they stole from us.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Darin Bastedo

[Harry P.]

As a Mohawk I see the Confederate flag as a symbol of white people fighting over who gets to keep the land that they stole from us.

Now there's a perspective you don't get every day.

Like any well-known symbol, the Confederate flag means different things to different groups. It can be a very emotion-triggering symbol to many...and then again there are those to whom it doesn't mean anything much at all.

It all depends on from what angle you're looking at the question.

[Harry P.]

And don't forget, the history books are written by the victors.

Do I sense a little resentment there? (I see you're from SC).

Remember...the South wasn't forced out of the Union by the North. In fact, Lincoln tried his best to STOP the secession. But the South wanted out, and withdrew from the Union. (And if I recall my grade school history correctly, fired the first shot.)

[Billy Kingsley]

Darin, I never knew you were Mohawk. I've read quite a bit about the Mohawk and in school we spent about 3 months on the Mohawks alone. Where I live now was once bordering the Mohawk area. Thus where I live, Wappingers Falls NY, is the only one on North America, and I'd venture the world. The Wappingers however sold their land freely, unlike most they were not forced. They were also a fairly small tribe. As recently as I can find they currently reside in Canada after a time in Massachusets, though I have yet to determine exactly how long that was. They also conquered what is now Manhattan Island at one point as well. I actually bought a book, originally written in the 1800s covering the entire Hudson River Valley, from modern day NYC up to the Mohawk valley.

We are actually pretty sure that there is American Indian blood in me...we just don't know what tribe. My great-great grandmother was from Kansas, but adopted in 1911 (IIRC) She would not ever reveal what she was, and the hall of records burned long long ago. It's been a family mystery since before I was born (she died in 1984, just a few months before I was born). We know it's either Amercian Indian or Mexican...but we will likely never know the true story.

If it's not readily apparent, I'm somewhat of a history buff, and have traced my family tree extensivly (well, my mom has anyway!) and we can trace our family back to around 1730 in Italy.

Now, back on topic....For me, when I see the Confederate Flag, I think of two things: The Dukes of Hazzard and Darlington raceway, who for many years flew that flag and no others (even having a character dressed as a Confederate Soldier as part of the post race ceremonys, often times riding the hood of the winner into victory lane! )

I don't see it as a hate crime, like some politicians do, but...while I am a very intelligent person, (technically genius, although I rarely show it) I just can't wrap my head around the concept of slavery or really any kind of descrimination. Anyone with an ounce of brains would know how utterly rediculous that whole concept it is, and the entire human race should be embarrased that it lasted as a blight on the world for more then 3000 years! It just doesn't make any sence to me, and I can't see it making sence to any at least semi-intelligent being.

I find it sad that some crazy nut-job wackos can take something that really had little to do with them, and pervert it to fit their needs, and I do believe that when you get down to it, that is what happened here, long before any of us were alive. It wasn't the first time in history, it wasn't the last, and it will happen again....the sad truth. I think it's especially sad that the people who fly it, and I'd like to believe that this is most, as nothing more then a sybol of colloquial pride are judged as being bad guys just because some of the aforemention whackos have adapted something as their symbol. If somebody clad himself in the Chevy bow tie, and started doing crazy evil things, we would not look down on Chevy, just him. However, if many people do this, for too long a tim

[jbwelda]

when you see a confederate flag out here, generally on a pickup truck with a rifle rack, it typically means the owner of the truck is only maybe slightly to the left of a nazi, politically speaking, and most probably a good bit to the right of rush limbaugh or even dick(head) cheney. racist skinhead loser meth addicts typically. it is a sign of ignorance, not heritage. those people are to be pitied. if there ever was such a thing as white supremecy, those who talk the most about it are exactly the ones least able to use their own lives as proof of any such thing. it is essentially the same thing to me as an aryan brotherhood tattoo, the sign of a loser, only just a bit more socially acceptable because they typically bring up this "heritage" smokescreen, but then so does the KKK.

ps: this belongs in rants if you ask me.

[Nick F40]

History in this section has been shoved to the side, that's ######, it's history. I'm sick of people looking at this as a racist flag. It's a southern flag, it's like if we flew our flag up north. It is a part of history, and we need to learn from it, we can't change it, but the main thing, get over it, the south will not rise again.

jbwelda, aren't you being a little close minded?

Now people abuse the flag.

The Confederate flag is a BATTLE flag and a southern flag. I couldn't even mention or fly it up here because we'd be automatic rednecks or racists.

Some people just don't get history I guess.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Nick F40

[Raul_Perez]

when you see a confederate flag out here, generally on a pickup truck with a rifle rack, it typically means the owner of the truck is only maybe slightly to the left of a nazi, politically speaking, and most probably a good bit to the right of rush limbaugh or even dick(head) cheney. racist skinhead loser meth addicts typically. it is a sign of ignorance, not heritage. those people are to be pitied. if there ever was such a thing as white supremecy, those who talk the most about it are exactly the ones least able to use their own lives as proof of any such thing. it is essentially the same thing to me as an aryan brotherhood tattoo, the sign of a loser, only just a bit more socially acceptable because they typically bring up this "heritage" smokescreen, but then so does the KKK.

ps: this belongs in rants if you ask me.

Come on, Bill...tell us what you really think...

[Nick F40]

I lived nearly my entire life down South, & while I am very proud of being a Southerner, I am not proud of what happened in the South.

Civil Rights workers, (black & white), being murdered.

"Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

Thank you for saying that. I agree with your statement and quote.

Oh and you see in the second sentence, "black AND white" civil rights workers.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Nick F40

[Nick F40]

Thanks for that.

I guess I just get sick of hearing is the ties that it has, like I like trucks and offroading and everybody at my school thinks I'm a racist and has a confederate flag. Trust me, I think racists are annoying and don't agree with them but it gets tiring after awhile.

[Gary66]

As a southerner the whole of my 41 years on this earth, I will say my feelings on the stars and bars:

This issue and the controversy surrounding it will be here a long time after we are gone. I don’t criticize those who want to be proud of their heritage, live and let live , I say.

However, the stars and bars are no longer a southern thing , they are everywhere, North, Midwest, west coast, places where no way anyone had a great, great, great, great grand pappy fight on the Confederate side in the bloody, decidedly “uncivil†Civil War ( or the War of Northern Aggression as my late Grand dad referred to it).

Anyway, the above posters are correct, the stars and bars have long since been bastardized by extreme racist groups that took a historical battle flag with true historic origins and made it into a symbol of pure hate.

For my Northern friends, not every southerner cares about who won or lost the civil war ( I don’t). I do care about preserving history. I have spent a few hours lurking around the Fort Fisher state historic site in Fort Fisher, NC, I have read and still have many books on the Civil War, and I support preserving the history of that conflict and indeed, that entire time in America. Those who wish to sanitize history are very, very wrong.

Guess where the bulk of all the confederate “trinkets†and do-dads sold in the beach shops in Myrtle Beach, SC end up?

They end up North when the tourists go back home after vacation, so to say it’s only a symbol of dumb, toothless southerners is a lie……….

Edited January 31, 2008 by Gary66

[monkeyclaw]

Since we are on the subject of the confederate flag; I just thought I might interject some actual model related insight ....attached is a photo of a truck I built a couple years back; that was out on the show circuit around the U.S. The truck was named "DIXIE" mixer ...one of the features of the truck model was the large "confederate" flag on the mixer drum; and of course; Mississippi license plates...I built this truck as a humorous poke at the type of things you only see in the south....The mixer actually did very well out at the shows; but did meet with some quizical looks and comments in states outside the region...GO figure! There was no malice intended by displaying the flag on the truck; it's actually quite common down here in the south....That's right...down HERE in the south....having lived all over the world; I now reside in Alabama; and I enjoy seeing some of the traditions in a bit more humorous manner than most people do....for instance; At a recent model show; I got odd looks from some of the "Nascar" modelers, when I asked them if anybody had done a "Ricky-Bobby" decal sheet yet...Being a transplant down here; Nascar is not my favorite racing venue; and that often does not sit well with "locals" , but at least I have the sense of humour to build a "spoof" model, to celebrate the tradition it represents....Matt

Edited January 31, 2008 by monkeyclaw

[Nick F40]

As a southerner the whole of my 41 years on this earth, I will say my feelings on the stars and bars:

This issue and the controversy surrounding it will be here a long time after we are gone. I don’t criticize those who want to be proud of their heritage, live and let live , I say.

However, the stars and bars are no longer a southern thing , they are everywhere, North, Midwest, west coast, places where no way anyone had a great, great, great, great grand pappy fight on the Confederate side in the bloody, decidedly “uncivil†Civil War ( or the War of Northern Aggression as my late Grand dad referred to it).

Anyway, the above posters are correct, the stars and bars have long since been bastardized by extreme racist groups that took a historical battle flag with true historic origins and made it into a symbol of pure hate.

For my Northern friends, not every southerner cares about who won or lost the civil war ( I don’t). I do care about preserving history. I have spent a few hours lurking around the Fort Fisher state historic site in Fort Fisher, NC, I have read and still have many books on the Civil War, and I support preserving the history of that conflict and indeed, that entire time in America. Those who wish to sanitize history are very, very wrong.

Guess where the bulk of all the confederate “trinkets†and do-dads sold in the beach shops in Myrtle Beach, SC end up?

They end up North when the tourists go back home after vacation, so to say it’s only a symbol of dumb, toothless southerners is a lie……….

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Mark, I agree!

[jbwelda]

thank you mark.

for some others who may question what i just said, what would you think of someone with a swatstika on their car who claims its "heritage not hate"? its roughly the same thing just a different country.

and i am not a "pc" person by any means. here in california i am often considered a reactionary because i dare to think for myself occasionally and that a dangerous thing sometimes.

however i do have a funny kind of story to relate. my brother and his wife live in the shenandoah valley of virginia. thats where someone, sherman maybe, led the "march to the sea" to sack richmond. on the way they essentially salted the earth of the "breadbasket of the south", the shenandoah valley. that left a lot of enemies in its wake.

well the first time i drove to my brothers house i see this big white southern mansion on the road with a confederate flag flying under the USA flag. so i immediately think, whos the racist who lives there? i ask my brother about it and he says aw you get used to it and a lot of people here still hate the "north" for what they did in the civil war to the area. well my bro is from cali too so he knows the prevailing sentiment out here about such symbols.

so one day i am driving to DC and i see the presumed owner of the property with the flag, out front cutting his lawn. its a black man. i note it and drive on.

a couple days later i am in this cafe there in mt jackson where my bro lives and in walks the same guy and he sits down at the counter a couple stools away from me. after wrestling with my own internal california PC business i get up the courage to introduce myself and ask about his house...if its his etc. sure enough he and his family have lived there since post-civil war days and his family was a slave family in the area during and before the war. i tell him i am interested in the history of the area (completely true) and we start talking about the war and what went on down there and also life as a slave in those days (he of course didnt have first hand knowledge but his family did) so i finally come out and ask him about the flag. he laughed and said he could tell i was from california and while he had reservations about life in those days he WAS proud of the south and the way they fought off those who would change their way of life even though his family (not to mention his race) was on the short end of that particular stick. we didnt get into the racism angle too much but he made it plain to me that at least to him and his family, the south was their heritage and they were proud of that even if they werent proud of what was done to them because of their color, and there was still a lot of resentment there by people of all colors about the way the north treated them during their march to the sea. and to him that flag represented not just heritage but also a rebellion against too much government control by a distant govt who knew little or nothing about the real situation there. he then brought up all the baggage that goes with it but more or less dismissed it as the ravings of poorly educated hillbillies and of people who are so down they need someone to point to and say "at least im not one of them". i was surprised to see how balanced his outlook was; even though i couldnt share it, or actually i could share it i just have a hard time through what the symbol has come to mean to me being out in the "liberal" west.

so i do agree there is room for debate, even from those you might think most firmly oppose such a symbol but believe me, out here in the west, most if not all confederate flag flyers know little or nothing of the history and like i said its mostly those who would just as soon fly a swatstika on their car if it didnt mean it would be retaliated against the first night they left it on a public street.

speaking of which everyone knows its more or less considered a hate crime to draw a swatstika on something these days and here in the west school kids are even threatened with hate crime charges for drawing one on their school books. but back when i was a kid, it was a common thing to see and i drew them myself. it was just a childish thing, we had no idea what it meant, really, other than it was for german soldiers. one day a man, an officer in the air force (as was my father) saw one on my book and pulled me aside and said to me: "you think thats cute (or something, i dont remember his actual words) but one day you will realize what that stands for and be ashamed of it". i remembered those words and went home and asked my dad about it...he told me more indepth that it wasnt just about some soldiers, it was about a repressive and murderous regime that i was blessed to not have to live with or through and no it wasnt a great idea to have that there. but my dad wasnt one to order us kids to do something, he just told us the story and let us make up our own minds. the next day i got rid of all those symbols, made new book covers and so did my brother.

another story: once we were travelling through the south, mississippi or alabama or somewhere, and i had to go to the bathroom. my mom took me to a gas station and we went to use one but i walked toward the "colored" bathroom. she said no not that one bill, and i asked why not, whats that mean "colored". she shussed me because there were people standing around but when we got back to the car i asked again what that was about. she and my dad looked at each other and just said, bill, its not good to ask questions like that here in public because there are very ignorant people here who will cause us trouble for that and we need to get out of here now. and thats how it struck me ever since: confederate flags equate to ignorance, and a willingness to resort to violence to enforce that ignorance.

at any rate i do believe on some level it is about heritage but i also believe that is a thinly veiled smokescreen for what some people really do believe, just as mark outlined above, a barely concealed wish to go back to a racist society where violence was what was expected if you even questioned the symbol and a whole race had to live in fear just because of the color of their skin. i doubt there are many people of color today who would be able to hold the same balance in their outlook as the gentleman (and he was a gentleman) i referred to above, it just remains too powerful a symbol of oppression to most of them. and thats not PC, thats just straight talk.

[camaroman]

Yeah! what Mark said in the previous post!!!

[old-hermit]

Do I sense a little resentment there? (I see you're from SC).

Remember...the South wasn't forced out of the Union by the North. In fact, Lincoln tried his best to STOP the secession. But the South wanted out, and withdrew from the Union. (And if I recall my grade school history correctly, fired the first shot.)

No resentment Harry. Most people, even in the South don't know or care about history.

That's why I put a link to fact's. The seeds of Southern secession were planted in the 1790's when the Union put tariffs on cotton. It wasn't about slavery, it was about a government telling it's citizens what they could and could not do in their own state. That is spelled out specifically in the Constitution. If you want to talk about Constitutional law I can go there to.

I am a born & bred Southener who knows the history of the "War of Northern agression.

What the Union did before, during & after the war was wrong on so many levels.

i dare to think for myself occasionally and that a dangerous thing sometimes.

the south was their heritage and they were proud of that even if they werent proud of what was done to them because of their color, and there was still a lot of resentment there by people of all colors about the way the north treated them during their march to the sea. and to him that flag represented not just heritage but also a rebellion against too much government control by a distant govt who knew little or nothing about the real situation there.

Kinda like what's happening right now.

[Harry P.]

No resentment Harry. Most people, even in the South don't know or care about history.

That's why I put a link to fact's. The seeds of Southern secession were planted in the 1790's when the Union put tariffs on cotton. It wasn't about slavery, it was about a government telling it's citizens what they could and could not do in their own state.

The federal government has been telling citizens, both northern and southern, what to do from day one! You think the government wasn't telling the northern states what they could or could not do??? The Federal government has jurisdiction over ALL the states, north and south.

And again, if I remember my grade school history, the Civil War came about because the southern states, whose economy was agriculturally based (i.e., they used slave laborers on their farms and cotton fields), were at odds with the northern states, whose economy was industrially based, and where slavery wasn't practiced.

As new states joined the union, the question of whether they should enter as "free" states or "slave" states always arose. The Abolitionist movement was gathering strehgth at this time, and the "underground railway" and similar entities began to form as a way to lead slaves to freedom in the north. The tensions and resentment that the south felt for the wealthier north (wealthier because most of the big cities and big manufacturing was based there), combined with the south's use of slave labor in conflict with the north's opposition to such, eventually boiled over and culminated with the southern states electing to form their own government and secede from the Union. And like I said, I believe the actual "war" began when the southern forces fired on Ft. Sumter.

All of this has nothing to do with model cars, of course, but I'm as ready as anyone if you want to talk history.

(edited for typos, not content!)

Edited February 1, 2008 by harrypri

[Nick F40]

I know, I bet Jaffa is confused, over where he lives it's a sign of good ol rock n roll but in this messed up country it's something looked down on.

"so one day i am driving to DC and i see the presumed owner of the property with the flag, out front cutting his lawn. its a black man. i note it and drive on"

that's my other point, I see black people PROUDLY wave the confederate flag. hmmmmm

[outsider]

the original document that was presented to the federal government states the higher taxes that were placed on textiles at the time to be the main cause of the civil war. this is what one of the curators of the smithonian intsitute told us when our high school class went for a visit.

i guess i can see the flag in a funny kinda of light as i had family that fought for the confederates and also for the union. they were brothers and one had found the others body in shilo and brought him home. personally i belive the moronic groups who have adopted and twisted the meaning of the flag should have been stopped before it got out of hand. but its true we have as many blacks that fly the flag as whites in birmingham alabama. but to say everyone who flies it is a hate monger is a lil bit of a blanket opinion. never judge a book just by its cover only. an if you want to know when i see the flag i get a lil pain in my heart because of what my family might have been if that flag nor the war came to be.

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

I was born and raised in Greenville,SC

I currently live in Buffalo,NY

I rarely see the confederate flag in these parts,but I do see prejudice and LOTS OF IT!!!!!!!!!

More than I ever did down south.

Just my 2 cents worth

John