Is it time....

[Fletch]

Let me start off with what got this rolling around in my head. I'm sure this will come off sounding like sour grapes, but with the other posts I have seen here in the recent past perhaps it's time to do something other then complain.

This past weekend a few of the guys from the local club drove 150 miles to an event noted as being an 'NNL'. The total # of awards was no real big deal as they had 'Best Theme', 'Best Junior' and 'Best of Show'. As with most events you meet up with friends that you see here or at other events throughout the year etc. The fellowship was great, the event was down about 20% from the previous year. About an hour into the event we were informed that the person (singular) who was to be the judge of the event had chosen not to attend. I knew that there were several of us at the event that had decades of judging experience so I wasn't overly concerned. Throughout the day the gentleman who I knew to be the primary person behind the event was walking around the room and talking with the builders myself included. Along with him was one of the host clubs newer members who has been building for a few years. At no point during the day did I see anything that could be considered as judging. Even though it is an NNL there is still some judging that has to take place unless you do it entirely people's choice, and none of this was people's choice.

Fast forward to the end of the day, all the thank you's are given, announcements for events coming up, you know the deal. Then we get to the awards, the 'Best Junior' went to the best of the 3 junior modelers at the event. The 'Best Theme' went to a nicely build entry, but not the best of the theme class by any stretch of the imagination. Then came 'Best of Show', there were several entries on the table that could and should win at most any event they were entered. When the winner was announced the room went silent, no one could believe which model got the award. We came back to our senses and did the polite clap thing but were stunned.

Believe me, I know the drill of when you're at some other clubs event thing all to well. But, here's the rub for what took place last weekend. When I ask the person who headed up the event, who I know to have limited judging experience and normally only judges with an experienced judge, how the judging was done. He told me that he and the other club member, who had never judged before, talked with each of the builders of what they thought to be potential winners. Yes, they did talk to me about my entries, but I wasn't aware that we were doing what I'm calling "Judging by Interview". Neither of the "Judges" had the experience to judge the contest, neither knew what to look for in determining the best of anything. Getting 1 out of 3 awards right is not very good odds. By the time it was all over and done with the head "judge" told me that because they couldn't decide what was they best model in the Theme or the open entries they just went with what "HE" liked best.

These were the same comments I heard from the gentleman who won last year. He was totally amazed when he won, and when he ask how he won with builds that were superior on the table, it was "what I like" was the final determining factor. I understand that judging is very subjective and a good judge can set aside what he likes for what it the best executed build in a given class. A good judge will set himself aside and ask for another judge to help if there are personal reasons he can't get past something. To be told the winner of an event was determined by "what I like" is just wrong, I build to what I like not anticipating what a judge might like.

Enough of the rant, let's get to the reason for the post. With the experience of this past weekend and the other rants I have seen here for the past 2 years or so is it time that we the hobby come up with a criteria on how a show should be judged? In years past when Revell and Pactra had their national contests a very specific set of rules were in place with a specific points system. You knew that when you entered those contests that there was a laundry list of things that gave you points and if you didn't have them and the next entry did, they got more points then you did. Is it time that we go back to that kind of system. I know it's very regimented but everyone walks in the door, enters their models and allows their work to speak for it's self. What I am advocating is we on a national basis examine what makes a contest grow and what makes a contest fail. Basically, let's come up with some guidelines that will level the playing field. That if I enter a contest here in Portland I can expect it to be judged by the same criteria as a contest that I flew across the country to enter.

We have all seen to many contests go by the wayside because there doesn't seem to be any consistency in judging. The event this past weekend down 20%, next year if the trend continues, I'll attend the IPMS event 20 miles away instead of driving 150 miles. I would hate to see the event go away but if the judging is so out of line with what I believe to be fair I'll spend my entry fee somewhere else. I'm not advocating we all become IPMS but at least I know that my completed build will be judged by the same criteria no matter where I enter it.

Harry, Gregg, how do you feel about this, there seems to be a ground swell of discontent by modelers about how events are judged, do you feel it's time for a change? Being politically correct and contest judging don't seem to play well together.

[Harry P.]

Well, since I never have, and never will, enter a model of mine in a contest, there are probably quite a few people here who think I shouldn't even have an opinion on the subject. But if you know me at all, you'd know that I have an opinion on everything! So here goes:

Problem #1: The fact that there is judging and awards given out an an NNL event in the first place. That totally flies in the face of what an NNL is supposed to be. An NNL is supposed to be a model car exhibition or show, without competition or judgements of any kind made by anyone as to which model is Best Junior or Best This or Best That or Best Anything. Whether an NNL is judged by one person, several people, or whether everyone votes on "People's Choice" and such is irrelevant; an NNL isn't supposed to include judging and awards. If you want to have a contest, fine... but don't call it an NNL. I guess I'm one of a very few people who think this way, as I've been told right here on the forum that basically I'm full of it, and handing out trophies at an NNL is "correct" and that NNLs have "evolved" that way... but to me, an NNL that hands out awards is not an NNL.

Problem #2: In a judged contest (NOT an NNL!), ultimately the "winners" will be chosen according to the individual judge's own personal definition of what constitutes a "best" in any given category. (That's why I put the word "winners" in quotes... "winners" based on personal opinion). Judging entries to decide which is "best" is always a matter of personal likes and dislikes, personal biases and tastes. As long as human beings are doing the judging, the judging will be subjective and biased to one extent or another.

The idea of a strictly defined set of judging parameters is a good idea, IMO. It's still not perfect, but it does minimize the judge's own personal tastes affecting his or her decision because it forces the judges to look at specific categories and judge each entry in each of those specified categories via a number or point system... so many points for the paint, so many points for detail, so many points for accuracy, or whatever the pre-determined parameters are. They can't just vote for the model because they "like it the best" or because it's a subject that they themselves like to build or have the most interest in. When a category/point system is used to judge the entries, judging becomes less opinion-based and more based on the qualities the model itself has, regardless of whether or not the judge likes that particular type or subject of model. Judging based on a point system within a given set of categories is, in my opinion, the best way to minimize (not totally eliminate) personal bias in the judging process and seems to me to be the fairest, most impartial method of judging.

[Junkman]

This reminds me of a real car meeting I attended a few years ago. It was the (European model) Ford Granada Owners Club meeting here in England. At that time, I owned two very decent Granadas, and me and my wife took both cars to this convention. I say 'decent condition', since none of my cars were really and truly show worthy, so I considered myself rightfully out of any contest.

On the showgrounds was a 3000 (!!!) mile original, albeit a base model. The car had to be seen to be believed. There also was an ex-copcar from the Nottinghamshire Constabulary, which was painstakingly restored by a group of enthusiastic policemen in their spare time and with their own money in the police motorpool garage. There also was one of eleven ever built Coleman-Milne MK I Grosvenor limousines, in pristine condition. There was also an ex royal household Estate (Station Wagon to you fellow Americans), which was built by Aston Martin on commission, no less. The only one known to exist. And there was a stunningly beautiful Woodall-Nicholson bodied hearse (pun intended). There also was an extremely rare 2.8 "Injection" model in superb original condition.

The 'best of show' award went to a 'circus tractor', which had a 302 V8 installed (never available originally) and pretty much each and every accessory you can order through your local motor factor with a credit card. Yes, the car was septically clean, but not a single thing was original.

Mind you, this was not a custom car show, this was the meeting of the Granada Owners Club.

I cancelled my club membership and haven't attended a single meeting since.

[Modelmartin]

Dave,

I don't understand why you would be so disappointed about the awards at an NNL. Popular vote doesn't always do much better. I could understand if it was billed as a contest.

In order for there to be a set of judging standards, there would need to be a broad agreement on them. I don't think IPMS has even accomplshed that. I see a lot of variation in IPMS judging. I think standards are a pipe dream, a well intentioned pipe dream.

Even at GSL which generally is very well judged, there are occasionally odd results. We are dealing with humans here!!

[charlie8575]

I think any NNL should be People's Choice awards only, with the possible exception of best in show; too many times that'll go to something that's all sizzle and no steak. Best of Show should be judged by a group of known, experienced modelers, announced prior to the show, with exact criteria posted.

To that end, I think the idea of setting up a uniform judging standard for judged contests is a very good idea. Each club can add/delete to meet their needs, but a generally-accepted base set of ground rules would help out a lot.

The only problem I could see is getting everyone to agree on those. This has the potential to make the Constitutional Convention look like a bad night for the home team at a bar.

Any such adaptation, at the minimum, must be:

1. Fair.

2. Easy to understand.

3. Transparent.

4. Something that can be applied uniformly with little or no modification by any club.

Charlie Larkin

[2002p51]

I have to agree with Harry and others who feel that an "NNL" should have no awards at all.

I recently attended the first "NNL" I had been to in more than ten years and was very surprised to see that there were several awards. And this was a "major", that gets full coverage in the modeling press.

I was further disappointed when, after the awards ceremony was over, I had the distinct impression that all of the decisions had been made before the models were even placed on the tables.

NNL = no awards

[Len Woodruff]

I agree about the problems with deciding on "who is best". We have a "judged" contest in March. Ours was just last Saturday and we use a points system for judging Finish, Interior, Chassis, Engine etc. In our case this has worked well for years until last Saturday when the Master Awards were "picked" instead of being judged using the points system.

The issue we have is the credibility of the choices. If the Best Car wasn't picked both the show and the entrant pickedwere misserved. The entrant thinks he has a better car than he did and the contest looses credibility for other entrants.

###### humans, they are full of mistakes.

[camaroman]

I have to agree with Harry and others who feel that an "NNL" should have no awards at all...

NNL = no awards

I heartily agree. I go to the ATL NNL because I want to see the work of others not vote on it!!!

[Karmodeler2]

Neither of the "Judges" had the experience to judge the contest, neither knew what to look for in determining the best of anything. Getting 1 out of 3 awards right is not very good odds. By the time it was all over and done with the head "judge" told me that because they couldn't decide what was they best model in the Theme or the open entries they just went with what "HE" liked best.

Hey Dave,

I share you pain and I agree with Harry and Mark Taylor. When you go to "someone else's show", then a lot of times you are subject to their way of judging, albeit wrong in most circumstances. I have completely, and proudly, distanced myself from IPMS for life. I sleep well at night.

Also at NNL events, I have seen the Best Of model not actually be the "Best". I had a good friend tell me that Popular Choice (PC) is completely different from Best of Show (BOS). The BOS is normally a judged event and the PC is just that, where people (not necessarily model builders) choose what they like.

You can strike out on your own and start one with a different system, but you are bound to offend some, while making others happy. Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast. It happens in the 1:1 world too, and I do NOT think we should ever try to adopt their system, or any facet thereof, to judge our scale models. Chip Foose built the Impression for a guy who paid Chip to build it. The guy takes it to shows, wins best of everywhere, and is it the guy's work that gets the trophy? Is it Chip Foose that gets the trophy? Is it the car that gets the trophy? Can I pay Mark Jones to build me a complete model, pay for it and take it to shows and win? You can see how this could get out of hand. Generally the builder in the 1:1 world is not the one who enters it in to the shows.

Also, even the big contest are subject to errors, so it's hard to escape from them. At GSL one year, I know that there was a discussion among the judges where one model was obviously the winner of a certain award, but another model was deemed the winner by the leader because he felt that the one he chose was more "difficult" in some aspects. Fortunately, both models were by the same builder, so it was a moot point. It is tough to get an unbiased approach in this hobby and this will always exist because we are human and biased. I'm sorry you had to endure such craziness, but I have to extend a hand and say welcome to the mad mad world of model judging.

I love the ATL NNL, even though they hand out awards. It's the friendships and meet & greet on Friday night that has more meaning for me than the contest. Let that be the experience you look forward to and that will keep you happy. I trust your next show will be a better event.

Sincerely,

David

[Fletch]

Believe me guys I've been around this insane hobby for going on 50 years and have been judging for the past 20+ years. The thing that prompted this post about last Saturday, was that the 15 pieces that the guys that I went to the "NNL" with were all better then the build deemed "Best of Show". I have written a couple of replies to add to this conversation, and as you'll notice neither of them have been added to the topic. One was canceled and the other became a blog entry as both sounded like sour grapes.

Let me give you a thumbnail of the 2 winners that I have an issue with. The best theme (kustoms) was a Hasegawa cubrside of the Buick Wildcat. I grant you the paint was nice and it was nicely lowered, some custom pieces molded in and all around a well executed build. There were other full detail builds that were just as nicely built with a lot more work then the winner but...... Guess it helps when you're the president of the host club, I know should have seen that train coming. The Best of Show was a Revell '32 Roadster with 3 Window fenders and a Chevy engine replaced the kit stock Ford 5 Litre. Honestly, if this were entered at a show I had judged it would have gotten a cursory once over and that would have been the extent of it. The fact that the paint was so thick on the fenders that it ran down and filled in the mat area of the running boards should have been enough to eliminate it from consideration.

Enough crying over spilled milk, what I'm trying to get straight in my mind is how did we managed to go from structured contests and rules that everyone knew walking, in to the insanity that seems to reign in most contests today. I guess my ethics come from a place and time where it was ok to win and loose. When little Johnny's team lost they went back and tried harder for the next time. When you entered a contest and lost you talked to the winner to make yourself better for the next contest. A time when going the extra mile was applauded not frowned upon because not everyone got to win unless they too excelled. Now at the end of the day, we all gather around sing Kum Ba Ya, get our juice boxes and a cupcake, do a big ol' group hug and tell everyone that they're winners because there are no losers.

I know that not everyone agrees with IPMS, I know I don't all the time either, however, with a set of guidelines a contest can be fairly judged, and if the entrants are honest about it, they are happy with the results. Believe me I know the ego thing all to well, I am my own worst critic when something is completed, I am also the one who knows how good my work is as well. Yes, I know the 'ground swell' as I called it has always been there it just seems more and more builders are fed up with the situation and making themselves heard. If this pseudo-NNL lost 20% of it's attendance from the previous year and the trend continues it won't take long before it folds as I don't see the people behind the event asking why people aren't attending. Host clubs and those in the forefront of an event have to be open to why people either attend or don't. If that's because of what we as participants deem to be 'tainted' judging they need to be willing to change for the sake of the event or close the doors.

Will we be able to develop and implement a uniform set of judging guidelines, it's doubtful. A couple of years ago I offered a seminar at our Model Car Fest here in Portland on how to judge based on a points system. I sat by myself for an hour. The following year because of the constant complaining over the differences in an NNL and a judged contest, I offered to chair a panel to explain the differences between the 2. Three of us sat and talked for the hour. Most builders want to complain about how bad things are but, when it comes time to put the rubber to the road, they can't be bothered.

Will this dialog make a difference, I hope so, but at the same time I'm not foolish enough to believe it will serve anything more then allowing us to vent our frustrations over a screwed up situation. But,hopefully someplace along the way a host club or individual will get it that the event is dying because of their actions and not the economy.