For the Ford guys

[Ben]

I'm not too familiar with all the Ford engines and i'm wondering, would a 351 Cleveland look the same externally as a 302? I bought a 351 Cleveland resin kit from SMBC and it's really nice! But I found out that the Mustang I am wanting to put it in, came with a 302, not a 351.

[Jordan White]

IMO they look pretty much the same. They have the same distributor placement, so they could pass for one another.

[MikeMc]

I'm not too familiar with all the Ford engines and i'm wondering, would a 351 Cleveland look the same externally as a 302? I bought a 351 Cleveland resin kit from SMBC and it's really nice! But I found out that the Mustang I am wanting to put it in, came with a 302, not a 351.

Close enough...but NOT!!!

the 351 Windsor looks the same but the Cleveland has much wider heads...I would see it ....not a chevy guy though.......

[Jordan White]

Close enough...but NOT!!!

the 351 Windsor looks the same but the Cleveland has much wider heads...I would see it ....not a chevy guy though.......

Would it make much of a difference at small scale though, especially if it's covered by the engine accessories/wires/hoses?

[highway]

IMO they look pretty much the same. They have the same distributor placement, so they could pass for one another.

Sorry, but they are not the same. The Cleveland has a "snout" flat mounting surface for the water pump, and in that about 6 inch "snout" is also where the timing chain is housed. The Windsor blocks do not have the snout, and have a regular style timing chain cover similar to that of a small block Chevy. I also believe the valve cover bolt patterns are different. The Windsor blocks would pass for 289, 302, and 351W engines, where the Cleveland will pass for the 351C (of course ), 351M (Modified Cleveland), and 400M, which was a 351M with larger bore and stroke. If you need, I have the Revell 70 Mach 1 kit, which has both the 351C and 302, and will try to take pictures showing the difference.

[Jordan White]

snip

I'm a Chevy guy, I admit it! Don't shoot! I just glanced at pictures on Google, and didn't really notice a difference. As I said above, how much of a difference is it at small scale?

[Ben]

Sorry, but they are not the same. The Cleveland has a "snout" flat mounting surface for the water pump, and in that about 6 inch "snout" is also where the timing chain is housed. The Windsor blocks do not have the snout, and have a regular style timing chain cover similar to that of a small block Chevy. I also believe the valve cover bolt patterns are different. The Windsor blocks would pass for 289, 302, and 351W engines, where the Cleveland will pass for the 351C (of course ), 351M (Modified Cleveland), and 400M, which was a 351M with larger bore and stroke. If you need, I have the Revell 70 Mach 1 kit, which has both the 351C and 302, and will try to take pictures showing the difference.

Ahhhh, I see! I have that Mach 1 kit as well, i'll pop it open and check things out. I was just hoping to use the SMBC 351 because it's so detailed (and it cost me 30.00!, LOL) I guess i'll use it on something else.

Thanks for the info guys!

[highway]

Ahhhh, I see! I have that Mach 1 kit as well, i'll pop it open and check things out. I was just hoping to use the SMBC 351 because it's so detailed (and it cost me 30.00!, LOL) I guess i'll use it on something else.

Thanks for the info guys!

If you're going to build the Mach 1 version, you can use the 302 in whatever you need the Windsor style block in, I think there are very few parts shared between the two kit engines, I think just the carb, air cleaner, and alternator, off the top of my head. With a good parts box, you can build 2 complete engines from the Mach 1 kit.

[whale392]

Thank you for the correct info highway......the 260, 289, 302, and 351W all share similar architecture (as the 351W is a 9.5" deck height versus the 8.2" deck height for the rest of the Windsor family).

Now, the 351C, 351M, and 400M are of the same family (also the later 3.8L V6 shares Cleveland architecture) in that they have a flat-faced block with everything going into/out of the timing cover. The distributor is slightly offset to the drivers side and is part of the timing housing versus the 351W/302 being cast into the forward portion of the block.

[whale392]

Also, the BOSS 302 was a Cleveland-headed Windsor blocked engine with a special intake (as the head-to-intake mating surfaces are at different angles for each engine family and the intake bolt pattern is different between the two).

[CAL]

I'm a Chevy guy, I admit it! Don't shoot! I just glanced at pictures on Google, and didn't really notice a difference. As I said above, how much of a difference is it at small scale?

A lot of difference, which has been already gone over.

There is a very noticable width difference.

The cylinder head is complete different both dimentionally and shape.

Rock covers are a different pattern and the tops are different.

The front is different including eh water pump and housings, the C is casted as part of the block, the W is an aluminum cover.

The cooling is different IE the T-stat is in a completely different location one is on the block and the other on the manifold. So all the hoses are different and in a different local.

Fuel Pump is on opposite sides.

Anyone with even a modest knowledge of Ford would see the differences even scaled down in a model.

[CAL]

Thank you for the correct info highway......the 260, 289, 302, and 351W all share similar architecture (as the 351W is a 9.5" deck height versus the 8.2" deck height for the rest of the Windsor family).

Now, the 351C, 351M, and 400M are of the same family (also the later 3.8L V6 shares Cleveland architecture) in that they have a flat-faced block with everything going into/out of the timing cover. The distributor is slightly offset to the drivers side and is part of the timing housing versus the 351W/302 being cast into the forward portion of the block.

I think that is the other way around the 351C M and 400M it was casted in the block. The W was a seperate housing.

[highway]

Thank you for the correct info highway......the 260, 289, 302, and 351W all share similar architecture (as the 351W is a 9.5" deck height versus the 8.2" deck height for the rest of the Windsor family).

Now, the 351C, 351M, and 400M are of the same family (also the later 3.8L V6 shares Cleveland architecture) in that they have a flat-faced block with everything going into/out of the timing cover. The distributor is slightly offset to the drivers side and is part of the timing housing versus the 351W/302 being cast into the forward portion of the block.

Thanks, Bradley, I hope I'd know a little on them, I had a 76 Mercury Cougar and a 79 Bronco with the 351M, and a 77 Ford LTD with the 400M! When I was growing up, my older brother had Mustangs galore and drag raced a beat up 64 Fairlane that he put a 289 HIPO in. I've been a Ford man almost since the day I was born, and now that I think about it, I see a little of the Cleveland in the 3.8 Liter in my better half's 1990 T-Bird.

[highway]

I think that is the other way around the 351C M and 400M it was casted in the block. The W was a seperate housing.

I think he did mistype that, CAL. The piece I called the "snout" on the C and M engines was cast into the block.

[Ben]

This is exactly the type of info I was hoping for. I admit, i'm a Chevy guy, all my real vehicles are Chevy but I love building models of Fords! Weird huh! LOL

I wonder if Scale Modeling By Chris makes a 302 kit? I checked his site but didn't see one?

I really like using the aftermarket engines like his and Ross Gibsons! The more detail, the better!!!!!

[highway]

This is exactly the type of info I was hoping for. I admit, i'm a Chevy guy, all my real vehicles are Chevy but I love building models of Fords! Weird huh! LOL

Not all of us can be perfect!! I'm about the same though, I'm a die-hard Ford man, I have two in the driveway, but it seems I have a lot of Bowties on the shelves!

[whale392]

Sorry Cal, you are incorrect in that assumption. All Windsor blocks have the distributor hole cast into the block, and drive the distributor and oil pump off the forward gear ground into the cam. I have 4 of the Windsor family engines either in my garage or in my cars at the moment and two Cleveland based powerplants in my shed for reference.

No harm, no foul though. When it comes to Porsche, you would KILL me on engine info, but I know my Mustang powerplants and my Mopar B/RBs.

[CAL]

This is exactly the type of info I was hoping for. I admit, i'm a Chevy guy, all my real vehicles are Chevy but I love building models of Fords! Weird huh! LOL

I wonder if Scale Modeling By Chris makes a 302 kit? I checked his site but didn't see one?

I really like using the aftermarket engines like his and Ross Gibsons! The more detail, the better!!!!!

I know the Ford SB quite well I built a 710HP 380CID SBF.

[CAL]

W

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/Windsorblock.jpg

C/M

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/06/Clevelandblock.jpg

[whale392]

Thank you Cal....you just PROVED my point. I guess having 4 Fox Mustangs (which came with a WINDSOR V8) does give me certain knowledge of my motor group.

Edited April 24, 2010 by whale392

[CAL]

Sorry Cal, you are incorrect in that assumption. All Windsor blocks have the distributor hole cast into the block, and drive the distributor and oil pump off the forward gear ground into the cam. I have 4 of the Windsor family engines either in my garage or in my cars at the moment and two Cleveland based powerplants in my shed for reference.

No harm, no foul though. When it comes to Porsche, you would KILL me on engine info, but I know my Mustang powerplants and my Mopar B/RBs.

They both have the dist whole in the block.

[CAL]

Thank you Cal....you just PROVED my point.

I think I proved my point. The dist is cast into both blocks the C has that additional housing casted around the timing gears and chain and the W has a seperate cover.

[whale392]

Also my point Cal. The Windsor and Clevelands are so different that they cannot be confused for one another.

[CAL]

Thank you Cal....you just PROVED my point. I guess having 4 Fox Mustangs (which came with a WINDSOR V8) does give me certain knowledge of my motor group.

I guess maybe we are talking about the same thing.

Also my point Cal. The Windsor and Clevelands are so different that they cannot be confused for one another.

Which was also my point, is you cannot confuse one for the other.

[whale392]

We are Cal, and to add to the comfusion; the 3.8L V6, while being of a Cleveland base, has a completely seperate housing for the timing chain/distributor drive/fuel pump mounting.