SuperStockAndy Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 I thought you had me on ignore child, at least you said you did. Just can't resist seeing what I say & commenting on it can you? To make it simple enough so that even you can understand it, (oh faint hope therein), the reason I said Dave's post was the most logical is because he said more than "yes" or "no", he explained why reading & following the instructions is important, especially with an unfamiliar kit. There, did you understand that? Even with as much scratch building & modification that I often do with a model, if it's based on a kit, I use the instructions as a guideline at the least. There's nothing worse than doing some extreme modification & discovering that the kit parts that you based it on were installed wrong, simply because you didn't look at the instructions. Harry mentioned the complexity of Pocher kits, which I have never attempted, but I can say that many Tamiya kits, several Revell of Germany kits, & every Fujimi Enthusiast kit, (among many others), can't be built without following the instructions, at least not to any degree of quality. The Tamiya Ferrai Enzo & Ferrari XXX kits I've built have to be built by the instructions. I thought you had me on ignore child, at least you said you did. Just can't resist seeing what I say & commenting on it can you? To make it simple enough so that even you can understand it, (oh faint hope therein), the reason I said Dave's post was the most logical is because he said more than "yes" or "no", he explained why reading & following the instructions is important, especially with an unfamiliar kit. There, did you understand that? Even with as much scratch building & modification that I often do with a model, if it's based on a kit, I use the instructions as a guideline at the least. There's nothing worse than doing some extreme modification & discovering that the kit parts that you based it on were installed wrong, simply because you didn't look at the instructions. Harry mentioned the complexity of Pocher kits, which I have never attempted, but I can say that many Tamiya kits, several Revell of Germany kits, & every Fujimi Enthusiast kit, (among many others), can't be built without following the instructions, at least not to any degree of quality. The Tamiya Ferrai Enzo & Ferrari XXX kits I've built have to be built by the instructions. Well, I never said anything about you being on my block list. I don't have anyone on my block list to tell you the truth. I don't know if you just worded your first post wrong or what...but it just came to me in a wrong kind of way.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Well, I never said anything about you being on my block list. I don't have anyone on my block list to tell you the truth. I don't know if you just worded your first post wrong or what...but it just came to me in a wrong kind of way.. Perhaps you interpreted it or comprehended it incorrectly. I worded it very flatly, without attempting to insult anyone else that posted. A lot of times our attitudes towards others can color how we react to what they say, be it verbally or on the printed page, (albeit electronically in this case). In your case, you have an issue with me, (not saying anything either way about it, merely stating a fact, we aren't going to get along with everyone we meet), so you are likely more predisposed to read what I say differently than a post you don't agree with from someone that you get along with better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I thought you had me on ignore child, at least you said you did. Just can't resist seeing what I say & commenting on it can you? To make it simple enough so that even you can understand it, (oh faint hope therein), the reason I said Dave's post was the most logical is because he said more than "yes" or "no", he explained why reading & following the instructions is important, especially with an unfamiliar kit. There, did you understand that? Even with as much scratch building & modification that I often do with a model, if it's based on a kit, I use the instructions as a guideline at the least. There's nothing worse than doing some extreme modification & discovering that the kit parts that you based it on were installed wrong, simply because you didn't look at the instructions. Harry mentioned the complexity of Pocher kits, which I have never attempted, but I can say that many Tamiya kits, several Revell of Germany kits, & every Fujimi Enthusiast kit, (among many others), can't be built without following the instructions, at least not to any degree of quality. The Tamiya Ferrai Enzo & Ferrari XXX kits I've built have to be built by the instructions. I think a lot more people then just Andy should find this a little condo sending and insulting. Not everyone buillds model cars to bbw exact, or to the letter. I may be on my own here, but I like to build models to suite me taste and style, and I can usually do that with out looking where the rear axle goes or if I even want all those parts in my build. I didn't know that we had to be precise and logical in all of our thinking and posting. It was a question of of people used them or not, not why or what ramifications would come if they didn't, lighten up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I think a lot more people then just Andy should find this a little condo sending and insulting. Not everyone buillds model cars to bbw exact, or to the letter. I may be on my own here, but I like to build models to suite me taste and style, and I can usually do that with out looking where the rear axle goes or if I even want all those parts in my build. I didn't know that we had to be precise and logical in all of our thinking and posting. It was a question of of people used them or not, not why or what ramifications would come if they didn't, lighten up a bit. <Sigh> You did read where I addressed something similar in my first reply to Andy, didn't you? To wit: "Even with as much scratch building & modification that I often do with a model, if it's based on a kit, I use the instructions as a guideline at the least. There's nothing worse than doing some extreme modification & discovering that the kit parts that you based it on were installed wrong, simply because you didn't look at the instructions." The principle that Dave covered in his initial post is the same, whether you build OOB, modify or scratch build, if you base any of it on a kit. That's where being at least familiar with the instructions is a good idea. If you choose to leave out needed parts, (excepting a curbside or slammer of course), that's your folly, not mine. Also, precision, (though I didn't even mention that), & logic is a cornerstone of rational thinking & a sign of a mature thought process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I didn't say any of it was hard to fallow or understand, it was very "on point", that most of those that answered yes or no, needed to go back and reread your post to better understand what we need the instructions for. I don't know that anyone really doesn't understand why they are in the kit. I guess it just came across that anyone who has replied to the OPs question needed to go back and reassess their own motives. Part of me wonders how much of that was due to who the OP was him self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I didn't say any of it was hard to fallow or understand, it was very "on point", that most of those that answered yes or no, needed to go back and reread your post to better understand what we need the instructions for. I don't know that anyone really doesn't understand why they are in the kit. I guess it just came across that anyone who has replied to the OPs question needed to go back and reassess their own motives. Part of me wonders how much of that was due to who the OP was him self. None actually, I was replying to & addressing Dave's post directly, not anyone else's, thus my quoting him to begin with. Many of the other repsonses against reading the instructions were glib, shallow attempts at humor, offering nothing of value to the discussion. I deliberately ignored those on principle, Other than referring to them in an offhanded fashion, though a different objective possibly could have been inferred from my initial post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Perhaps, no, strike that, certainly the most intelligent & logical repsonse in this thread. Those of you that can't grasp this need to reread Dave's post & apply it's principles in your model building. Sure sounded directed to me. Not that he didn't make some very good points. Maybe it's just me Bob. Still not sure what being mature has to do with toy cars though..... Maybe when I'm older Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperStockAndy Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) i'm not sure i understand at all why you would find Bob's post condescending or insulting, it's pretty straight and to the point. Andy as well as a few others here seem to think that instruction sheets or booklets are nothing but a waste of paper and a joke, useful only as trashcan filler or something fun to set on fire. i guarantee that those same people would be the first to raise a bitch if Revell, AMT or anyone else for that matter were to skip putting instruction sheets in the box altogether. Incorrect. I do sometimes have to refer to the instructions-but 90% of the time it's to see what colors to paint everything. If the instructions were gone, I could still figure it out. And of course though, if you don't use the instructions you're a know it all. Edited January 28, 2012 by SuperStockAndy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 This Is a dumb question, but are there any over seas kits that don't come with English instructions? I've never messed with anything other then the common American brands. Does it make them more of a challenge, or do the illustrations get it to the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 This may sound a little stupid to some, but I feel that all the time I spent as a little kid staring at the exploded view instructions really helped me to understand how real vehicles worked and went together. I really noticed it when I went to school for it and was able to process the repair manuals pretty easily. Kinda funny how that works, I never gave it much thought until now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Eh? Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Shane, I think that there is definitely a connection between your youth building time and your your skill at reading manuals of all types. One of the reasons that I do a same-model-kit-build with my whole class is two-fold. First, it allows my students to follow a set of instructions, which are both sequential and of an exploded view nature. Since the parts are drawn 2-dimensionally, it helps them develop their ability to relate a drawn representation to its 3-dimensional counterpart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 That's really cool BIll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High octane Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Huh??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Eh? Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Thanks Shane. The fun part is that I build along with them. They can see the enjoyment that I get from building. They can also watch how I approach things as well. I use what I call a 'think aloud' method. I verbalize everything that I'm thinking and doing. Sometimes talking through a build, out loud gives them some additional information to work with. It even helps me most of the time. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Do you also paint or just use the mechanical build aspect of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Eh? Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 When I used to do model building as an 'After School Program', we fully painted the models. We used a Tamiya Spraywork airbrush system, as it is of a pistol grip style and easier for ten year olds to use. We sprayed Tamiya acrylic paints (safe for use in a classroom with windows open), and a very large cardboard box. Now I just get the class to do some brush painting. Usually just aluminum, silver, and semi-gloss black to bring out some detail on the chassis, brakes, and a few interior components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 That's a great patience tool for that young of an age group. Way to go Bill !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Eh? Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I have a class of 25 students. On average, only a couple have ever seen, let alone built a model. You can tell kids to be patient, but it is quite different for them to practice it. They have to have a vested interest, in this case a plastic model car that they want to do proud by. When I have a chance to talk with any of my early-in-my-career students, a lot of them will tell me that they still have the car model that they built with me. These are students who are now in college. LOL, do I feel old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) This Is a dumb question, but are there any over seas kits that don't come with English instructions? I've never messed with anything other then the common American brands. Does it make them more of a challenge, or do the illustrations get it to the point? A lot of the newer Japanese instructions don't have any text at all. Apart from your usual exploded view drawings, everything is explained with pictrograms and symbols, absolutely brilliant, once you figured out the code. European instruction sheets always were multi-lingual, even for the domestic marked. EU Regulations require five languages, English being one of them. Usually they now contain an extra sheet with 10 (ten!) more languages for the Eastern European, Scandinavian, and Middle East markets. The Revell AG Ural Truck and London Bus I just got, contain instructions in 18 (eighteen!) languages! Edited January 28, 2012 by Junkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scale-Master Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Regarding the question about foreign kit instructions in English. International instructions using symbols have been around for decades. A legend explaining the different symbols in many languages is provided as a key. I wish sometimes the companies all agreed on what those symbols should be, some are rather abstract. Also, often a sheet for English will be done up by a foreign company since it is a common language. As far as Pocher is concerned, I have built two, and the instructions are not only required, the ones for the Alfa I did contained a passage about the builder will likely need to disassemble previous sub-assemblies to add other sub-assemblies. The drawings/instructions are not a step by step format as much as a bunch of shop manual type exploded views that the builder gets to decide what might be the better way and order to follow. As careful as I was, I did have to unbuild and rebuild just as the instructions warned. Had I not read that, I would probably have concluded the model could not be built. But with the instructions, I finished it in two months; start to finish Out-of-the-box. I think Harry will agree that is quick for a Pocher. Bragging that you don’t need instructions? Maybe it all depends on what level of quality you are satisfied with… I’ll take the help to make the building more enjoyable and maybe better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 As far as Pocher is concerned, I have built two, and the instructions are not only required, the ones for the Alfa I did contained a passage about the builder will likely need to disassemble previous sub-assemblies to add other sub-assemblies. The drawings/instructions are not a step by step format as much as a bunch of shop manual type exploded views that the builder gets to decide what might be the better way and order to follow. As careful as I was, I did have to unbuild and rebuild just as the instructions warned. Had I not read that, I would probably have concluded the model could not be built. But with the instructions, I finished it in two months; start to finish Out-of-the-box. I think Harry will agree that is quick for a Pocher. Yep, a little but of "un-assembly" or backtracking seems to be standard operating procedure for building a Pocher kit... even if you do your best to follow the instructions (which, BTW, in places are sometimes misleading at best and downright wrong at worst!), sometimes you just can't go on to the next logical step without taking apart something you had already built. Since Pochers are built with screws, nuts and bolts instead of glue, it's not too big a deal... just sort of frustrating. I think two months time to build a Pocher is making pretty good time. Of course I don't know how many hours per day you put into it, but at any rate you can expect to set aside a nice chunk of time for building a Pocher kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperStockAndy Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 just keep talking yourself in a circle and continue on that ignorant and delusional path. i guarantee that there are a ton of kits out there that if you didn't have the instruction sheet, you'd never figure out how to finish That is blasphemy, it's really not that hard to build a model of a kind you're familiar with without instructions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scale-Master Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Yep, a little but of "un-assembly" or backtracking seems to be standard operating procedure for building a Pocher kit... even if you do your best to follow the instructions (which, BTW, in places are sometimes misleading at best and downright wrong at worst!), sometimes you just can't go on to the next logical step without taking apart something you had already built. Since Pochers are built with screws, nuts and bolts instead of glue, it's not too big a deal... just sort of frustrating. I think two months time to build a Pocher is making pretty good time. Of course I don't know how many hours per day you put into it, but at any rate you can expect to set aside a nice chunk of time for building a Pocher kit. I broke quite few heads off the screws, not the best stock... When I unbuilt something, I'd use fresh hardware to reassemble, they do give extras. Two months treating it like a full time job with overtime. Had a blast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scale-Master Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 That is blasphemy, it's really not that hard to build a model of a kind you're familiar with without instructions This is where put up or shut up might be an appropriate response. Show us what you have built sans instructions, like you could prove it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperStockAndy Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Andy, i think I touched on that somewhere back several posts, but here it is again just in case you missed it, apparently This is where put up or shut up might be an appropriate response. Show us what you have built sans instructions, like you could prove it... I haven't ever built a model WITHOUT instructions, but I easily could. But, I could easily get it done... Edited January 28, 2012 by SuperStockAndy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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