Chuck Most Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Sorry Chuck, but I have to disagree. Any kit built straight out of the box, simply assembled from the parts found in the kit, regardless of subject matter, belongs in Box Stock. I mean, that's the definition of Box Stock! Built from the parts in the box, no modifications (aside from the generally accepted cleanup, foiling, painting, etc.) If I build a Raider's Coach straight out of the box, I have no business entering that model in the "Custom" category... because I didn't do any customizing to it! At least in my world that's how it would work... Yes, absolutely. BUT- a Raider's Coach could be entered into a Rod/Custom category, or a 'Show Car' category if applicable. Even if built box stock, it could win its class even being totally OOB, simply because... well, when was the last time you saw a Raiders Coach built in any style entered in a contest?
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) I understand that, Harry, but a lot of contests just simply put the placard up on the table and that's it. I know a lot of them print up the kinds of categories and themes that can be entered, but seldom do they go that much indepth into the details that make up each category, which I think helps create the confusion, and perhaps makes it really tough for both the judges and the model builders. Chuck, I know there are contest like the GSL where the judges go over the model with a fine tooth comb, but a lot of the NNL style contests, the models are just looked at carefully on the surface, not really too scrutinized. Edited February 14, 2012 by Dr. Cranky
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Obviously there's no one good, solid answer here. I would define classes my way, another guy would define classes his way. There's no one correct answer. And rules vary from contest to contest, and judges (and their knowledge and ability) vary from contest to contest. In the end it's all about what each particular contest organizer decides it will be.
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Obviously there's no one good, solid answer here. I would define classes my way, another guy would define classes his way. There's no one correct answer. And rules vary from contest to contest, and judges (and their knowledge and ability) vary from contest to contest. In the end it's all about what each particular contest organizer decides it will be. You are right about that, Harry. When clubs host a model show (which is also the reason why there are so many NNL shows), it's important--if it's to be a judged competition--they get it all down in writing and make sure builders get the information in advance. It will definitely avoid headaches and arguments.
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Great discussion, guys. Now this is how a forum should operate!
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 When clubs host a model show (which is also the reason why there are so many NNL shows), it's important--if it's to be a judged competition--they get it all down in writing and make sure builders get the information in advance. Exactly. The ground rules change from contest to contest, but as long as everyone knows them up front, it's all good.
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Great discussion, guys. Now this is how a forum should operate! LOL, for a minute I thought you were getting exasperated!
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Okay, here's another question that's related to this great discussion. What came first on the scene to create the CUSTOM as a style: body modifications or paint? Or both at the same time? Edited February 14, 2012 by Dr. Cranky
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 LOL, for a minute I thought you were getting exasperated! Nah. It takes a lot to get me exasperated!
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Okay, here's another question that's related to this great discussion. What came first on the scene to create the CUSTOM as a style: body modifications or paint? Again, in my world, "custom" denotes body mods first and foremost. Sure, custom paint would almost always be a part of it, but to me a "stock" car painted in a wild paint scheme is not a "custom."
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 So based on your definition, Harry, the work of say a Ted "Chopper" Lear or Steve Boutte is always CUSTOM . . . never box stock? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, mind you. And I am not singling out these two wonderful builders (I have seen plenty of their work in several categories, not just Custom) as strictly CUSTOM builders.
LoneWolf15 Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Almost all builds built box stock are placed in said category by their builders . Usually , this particular class has the most entries . It's very rare to see a box stock placed in any of the other classes . Simply put , the builders know that when push comes to shove , they won't be able to compete with the detail on the other builds . There have been cases where a box stock has actually won Best Of Show , that however is very rare ! A ' 49 Merc coming out of the box from Revell is a custom body with a chopped top and additional custom parts . Technically , it is therefore a custom kit from the factory . Now , take that Merc as a fully detailed build and put it in the custom class . Say it comes up against a fully detailed , chopped top , AMT ' 49 Ford with radical body mods and killer paint . Everything about the Ford build is done to the 9 th degree , the Merc loses ! It should all come down to the execution of each and every build . If the Ford has a so so paint job , maybe a few marks in the bodywork , whatever , and the Merc is flawless , it's a whole different story . Merc wins ! Most shows reserve the right to move cars to different classes should there be a question as to where a particular build belongs . I've yet to have seen a kit such as the Merc moved out of a custom class due to the fact that it's a " factory" custom .
moparmagiclives Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I guess I didnt catch the entire question. Is it about the catagory or the way its built? I would say it would belong where ever the individual felt the most confident. Do most shows seperate the entrys by build "style" or in the way the person built it. If I built a #3 Impala out of the box, would it go in the box stock class or the "racing/ motor sports" catagory, or the box stock class in the racing catagory ? (if there is such a thing)
moparmagiclives Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 " factory" custom . I get what our saying, but Ive never understood that term...how can it be custom, if everyone like it is the same ? Something Ford has always lost me on..
Darin Bastedo Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Exactly! To me a "custom" is a model that has been customized by the builder... not a box-stock build of a "custom" subject. I think a box-stock build of a Monkeemobile or Batmobile or Pie Wagon or whatever doesn't belong in competition with models that the builders actually customized. I think you are missing the point Harry. In the contest "Custom" is used to denote the type of car the model represents. Much in the same way that the street rod, and street machine categories have nearly box stock Revell 32 Fords and Camaros that have kits supplied superchargers and slicks installed. On the other hand the Factory stock categories are often filled with models that had to be extensively modified to appear stock, such as a Revell 32 Ford 3 Window built stock. A well informed judge will judge the cars accordingly. In the end the quality of the work not the quantity should always prevail.
moparmagiclives Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Okay, here's another question that's related to this great discussion. What came first on the scene to create the CUSTOM as a style: body modifications or paint? Or both at the same time? I like to think that you can't have a body modification with out paint ....hint hint but there are alot of great customs that with out the flashy paint you would never know the body had been changed at all....with out a LOT of looking
LoneWolf15 Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 The # 3 car could go in any of the three classes. Box stock , that's a given ! Regular stock car class ? Sure ! I have a sneaking suspicion that you're going to get your backside handed to you , though ! Box stock race category ? Your chances are as good as the next guy's .
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I think the confusion is inherent in the mixing up and compounding of the terms. CUSTOM = STYLE CUSTOMIZED = MODIFICATIONS (within the CUSTOM STYLE) Yes? No? Maybe?
moparmagiclives Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 If I had to chose where to put my merc, I would probly go with the custom category, it's not military or industrial . I think it get muddy when you talk about classes and catogorys myself
Dr. Cranky Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Shane, precisely what happens at shows where--if what Donn described earlier about the show organizers moving and arranging doesn't happen--confusion and trouble reign.
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 So based on your definition, Harry, the work of say a Ted "Chopper" Lear or Steve Boutte is always CUSTOM . . . never box stock? Yes.
jbwelda Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 way back there harry said: >To allow box-stock builds of "custom" subject matter to compete head-to-head with actual customized models doesn't seem fair to me. it does seem kind of "fair" to me...the box stock will be entered in the custom class and not even be seriously considered as on a par with any of the others by the judges. because they know what they are looking at.
Harry P. Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 the box stock will be entered in the custom class and not even be seriously considered as on a par with any of the others by the judges. because they know what they are looking at. Don't be so sure. Judges don't always know what they're looking at.
LoneWolf15 Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Don't be so sure. Judges don't always know what they're looking at. Truer words have never been spoken ! Lol !
Ramfins59 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 I see we have differing opions here... and that is why I asked the question... IMHO I believe that Harry answered it the best when comparing a model that has been extensively modified by the builder to a custom model built out of the box... As to Dr. C pointing out what Don Yost says about paint being the most important factor in grabbing judges eyes, that to me is another "question" entirely... Yes a fabulously painted model will catch everyone's eyes quicker than a so-so painted one, however, should that fabulously painted model win over a model that has more extensive bodywork done to it and only a decent paint job. I guess it all really depends first of all on the rules of the particular contest the models are entered in, and, the likes or dislikes of the people doing the judging. "The eye of the beholder" so to speak... Then of course when considering a "Peoples Choice" type of contest, then you know for sure that the fabulously painted model will win in the majority of cases. Thanks for all the input everyone.
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