Judged Events..

[cruzn]

OK I helped Judge an event recently and I Must say that some People have thin skins, and Bruised egos.

I was commenting On what I thought didn't Look right and the Person who Built the Model was within ear shot. He took Offense at this and called me out thru emails and such, Saying I was Dogging His Model.

I put My Models On a Table and Let the wind fly.. No worries and No consequences or Name calling and being Robbed If I don't get a Place on the top three..

I go to Have a Good time Meet Modelers and talk shop.. Look at the swap tables and juts enjoy the show..

Dwayne Bressem

[Darin Bastedo]

Not knowing what was said or in what context, I can't really comment on your situation but, when I judge a contest I always make sure that all discussins during judging are made out of earshot of the contestants. Too often things must be said in the course of judging that are not the most diplomatic things a modeler could hear.

People put a lot of them selves into the models they build. If you said something that offended one of the contestants, my suggestion would be to sincerly apologise, and explain to him, that you didn't intend to offend. IMHO It's better to take the blame than to have a modeler have ill feelings toward the event.

[bobss396]

If I have cars on the table, I take a powder while the judging goes on, just out of respect for what the judges go through. Some of the decisions are hard to make, ever try to pick the BEST of the WORST? Sometimes 3rd place comes down to cars with major flaws in them somewhere.

I judge a couple shows a year and can sometimes pick up on someone looking over my shoulder. I've politely asked a couple of guys to give us some "elbow room" so that his car gets judged as fairly as the rest of them do. It doesn't happen often but the best bet is to shoo the person away diplomatically.

After the awards I'll try to find the person and give him some constructive critisism if his car doesn't place. Or congratulate him on a well done entry if he does.

Bob

[cruzn]

Not knowing what was said or in what context, I can't really comment on your situation but, when I judge a contest I always make sure that all discussins during judging are made out of earshot of the contestants. Too often things must be said in the course of judging that are not the most diplomatic things a modeler could hear.

People put a lot of them selves into the models they build. If you said something that offended one of the contestants, my suggestion would be to sincerly apologise, and explain to him, that you didn't intend to offend. IMHO It's better to take the blame than to have a modeler have ill feelings toward the event.

I do the same I Put alot into my Models also...

I have been to GSL and that year there were Over 200 In the drag Class. I figured I wouldn't even get a Look at by the Judges.. But the Model did .. because the top was down.. it was a funny car and I had it Propped up..

On ano0ther Note the one that was Offended was a Judge also..

His comments on others entries was not as Basic as My Comment..

Also Ego is a factor also..

Dwayne

[cruzn]

Not knowing what was said or in what context, I can't really comment on your situation but, when I judge a contest I always make sure that all discussins during judging are made out of earshot of the contestants. Too often things must be said in the course of judging that are not the most diplomatic things a modeler could hear.

People put a lot of them selves into the models they build. If you said something that offended one of the contestants, my suggestion would be to sincerly apologise, and explain to him, that you didn't intend to offend. IMHO It's better to take the blame than to have a modeler have ill feelings toward the event.

I do the same I Put alot into my Models also...

I have been to GSL and that year there were Over 200 In the drag Class. I figured I wouldn't even get a Look at by the Judges.. But the Model did .. because the top was down.. it was a funny car and I had it Propped up..

On ano0ther Note the one that was Offended was a Judge also..

His comments on others entries was not as Basic as My Comment..

Also Ego is a factor also..

Dwayne

[Mike]

I hear you on everything you're saying. I've never judged, but I do know my skills are inferior to other builders in one way or another. The flip side is, that I've had better builders give me good comments and ask "how'd you do that?". There's one individual up here that I've seen at a few contests. He's got some good builds, but does seem to have an ego of sorts as to his abilities by comparison to others. I can handle this with no problems, but at the last event he arrived and as I was admiring some builds, he looks at me and asks "Is this the junior section?" and referenced another local guy's builds that started to fill up the fourth table. I replied "No", and personally, I don't have time for this kind of BS, especially when the cars he referenced won the category and class at the end of it all.

I can fully relate to your experience, as I worked at, and managed, a music store for 9 years selling guitars/amps/pro audio etc. One year, I was asked to help judge a Battle of the Bands that some local establishment was putting on. I said OK and did my judging thing etc. Other events through the night involving two of the other three judges caused problems. So, for the next two weeks, you know who had musicians coming in to his store complaining and crying with bruised egos and swearing that "we should've won" blah blah blah blah.... and being yelled at for what the other two judges were doing. GAH!!!

[Guest Davkin]

Oh man, don't get me started on egos. I'm always amazed at how anybody can have an ego about a hobby, especially this one. No matter how good you are there is always someone out there better, so just enjoy the hobby, have fun with it. If you're a great modeler then share your work with others as well as your techniques. Use the hobby to create bonds with others of similar interest, not to create some false sense of superiority that distances you from others and makes you vulnerable to the smallest amount of criticism. In other words, lighten up, model car building is a pass time, a hobby and while it may be important to you personally it's not important to 99.9% of the people in the world, it's not saving any lives, curing diseases, feeding the poor or saving the planet, so don't take the hobby or yourself so darn seriously!

David

[cruzn]

Oh man, don't get me started on egos. I'm always amazed at how anybody can have an ego about a hobby, especially this one. No matter how good you are there is always someone out there better, so just enjoy the hobby, have fun with it. If you're a great modeler then share your work with others as well as your techniques. Use the hobby to create bonds with others of similar interest, not to create some false sense of superiority that distances you from others and makes you vulnerable to the smallest amount of criticism. In other words, lighten up, model car building is a pass time, a hobby and while it may be important to you personally it's not important to 99.9% of the people in the world, it's not saving any lives, curing diseases, feeding the poor or saving the planet, so don't take the hobby or yourself so darn seriously!

David

David... My sentiments exactly...

I do this for enjoyment and to relax and to Put out My best effort In what I do.. I have received compliments and such .. even had Models Photoed and the Pics were In the Mags.

I Have a Build that I take to shows Just to have something to Place on the Tables.It Is a 10 year Old Build.. and I still get compliments and have that little card Under it for the Photg to take Pics of and I feel Humbled By all of it, But I usually Make mention to the Photg that there is No need to take Pics of it It has been seen and in the Mags already.

And then there are some that Have to BRAG about themselves and How they did this and how they did that and what they have Built and what they are going to Build. Not once ask what you did or doing ..

those people I have difficulty dealing with.

[bowtie1]

Well here is my "2 cents". Some of my best friends i have meet at model shows, i also have had the pleasure of meeting some of the top builders and showing with them also, the likes of Clay Kemp, Dave Thibodeau,Mark Batson, Terry Marcum, and Doug Montgomery,and also have had the plesure of knowing the Late Ricky Couch. I build for myself and not for other people. Also have been asked questions about how i did something and was honored to have given the advice on how something was done! But the more shows i attend it's the same old thing people get there feelings hurt and feel like they were snubed or was not judged fair!!!!! And some people are there for the AWARD and if that's what the hobby means to them well let it be!! They are the ones missing out on the hobby of building childhood dreams and a want a be muscle car. This is a plastic hobby meant to have fun and explore your building mind of IDEALS!!! My 2 cents worth!!!! Jeff Marsh.

[Chas SCR]

All I could as for if its fair judged, But I also like to know what I did wrong or would do better on my cars for the next build, this was one thing I talk to a few of the people this year at the GSL " What could I have done better". I do not know much about drag racing cars or factory stock so I try to stay out of them and go into street rods and customs. But I like to build for my self and my tast in cars. Sounds like some one just did not like how it was judged and wanted it turn into his faver is all. Hats off to Dwayne for doing it not a lot of people like to be the judge of stuff but that is them and if it was not for the ones that know how to do it and will help then we would not have shows.

[Guest Davkin]

Interesting that you mention GSL Chas. Now there's an event where many of the best model car builders in the world compete, yet you'll find very little ego for the most part. Ya, there's always one or two in every bunch, but considering the amount of talent, experience and expert craftsmanship on display at GSL the ego quotient is very, very low. Most anybody at GSL freely gives out advice and will happily answer any question you have about their models, in fact most can't shut up about it! But it's not bragging because they just love to share their knowledge. While GSL is a competition, (and of the highest order.) it hardly feels that way. I had Jerry Cardinal to myself for at least an hour at the last GSL and learned plenty about his craft with brass, but more importantly I learned a lot about a very interesting man! Same with Dave Cummins, I've had the opportunity to bend his ear for quite an amount of time. Now there's a GSL Best of Show winner and he'll happily tell you anything you want to know about how he builds his models, no ego there! It is possible to strive to achieve to build the best model possible, yet have fun and check your ego at the door regardless of what you've achieved. Most of the GSL masters are a great example of that.

David

[FloridaBoy]

This is a great topic As a long time competitor then non-competitor and have a lot of experience in building, I am often asked to judge model car contests. I have had the privilege of being asked, but dread because I am not a judgemental type person, as what is my cup of tea might not be what another guy's is, and vice versa.

However, I have found that judging is often an oversight at a Judged Event. The selection process for the most part is informal, but I have been a part of several contests where judges were picked way before the event, trained, given criteria and rules of the road. My own rules of the road are that if I enter a car in a contest, I will not judge in it, even of off class. That to me disturbs integrity.

Second, many people tell me I am a "nice guy", but I am also a staunch believer in the importance of competition in our hobby, and to give every car and builder a fair chance. When I was with the IPMS, my local chapter developed a 10 category, 100 point judging system which to me was the answer. The categories are workmanship, accuracy, could the car conceivably run, etc, with one category called "The WOW factor" which gives each judge some latitude. For the most part, model car contest guys routinely expect the judge to go over a car, then pick the "best" one. But this "nice guy" is a hard-a%% when it comes to the responsibility of judging. I even use this 100 point system on my own cars, and I have yet to break a 90. The 100 point system also has blank lines for quick notes from a judge to the contestant, thereby providing in writing the critique of the model for the bruised ego.

For example, I am a killer when it comes to unresolved model production problems (parting lines, sink marks, etc) and poor gluing and adhesion. Also, I am also pretty tough on models that are pieced together, so that you are not able to pick it up to look at the undercarriage. Crazy to mention, but I see at least 2 to 3 in every event.

The last thing I tell myself is that time is relative. The car that the Bruised Ego cherishes and feels so strongly about will be toast in 6 months, so why argue.

There are trophy hounds in every activity I have ever been involved in. But to me, the size of the trophy is irrelevant compared to the memory of the cars my car won over and the calibre of competition. When I put my cars down, I expect them to win just like any other guy, but when you look at the cars that won in your division when guys are picking up their cars, talk to them. In a custom car category, I was sure that my essentially perfect '40 Ford Custom coupe with working gull wing doors was a shoe-in and when it didn't even place, I found out I was beaten out by a guy who junked a car in his diorama. I felt totally betrayed, until I talked to the models owner and he showed me the incredible level of detail and accuracy his model had, way beyond mine. I learned, and that is why I treat every contest as a supreme learning experience. I have met some real tremendous people who are full of energy, competitiveness, and enthusiasm for the hobby at these contests, and almost every one will share his technique with fellow modelers.

I have learned even judging a superior car, that you learn at every event. Judges are often not the best builders, but they are knowledgeable about models, building, and aesthetics. Do not shun competition because you feel it is "against your grain" to compete your cars, enter your cars to improve yourself in the hobby, and you are in for an incredible learning experience.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Modelmartin]

I heartily agree with David King's view of the best builders. There is an inverse relationship between ability and ego. The more of one, the less of the other. That cuts both ways. The big egos usually don't stick around the hobby for a long time either. Their ego can't handle all of the bruising from hard contact with the real world.

We all have egos but I think most people keep it under control. I love winning a contest or a class but don't have any issues if my model loses to a better model. I usually appreciate the winning model.

I actually enjoy dealing with the big egos when they go looking for the judge who insulted them. I tell them what's what and exactly why their model did not win. Some of these guys were actually pretty good and their models only needed a little improvement to win but they were so wrapped up in their anger they couldn't pick up on anything. Sad.

I like judging and always do it when asked or a call goes out. I have found "quiet" models that really astound when you look carefully that I would have missed if I had not been judging. I have also been astounded at the depth of craftsmanship and art in some really spectacular models. Judging lets you systematically enjoy these models.

[bob paeth]

Judging is the hardest part of any contest and I have judged thousands of models. There are several ways that the builder can help the judge. One is to have the body remain attached to the chassis when you pick it up. Another turnoff is when you turn the model over to look at the chassis and a wheel or tire falls off. If the builder doesn't have the time to build a "solid" model then why should the judge spend a great deal of time looking at it.

You want the judge to be fair in judging your model ? Then tell him what you have done to it. Provide a 3 X 5 card describing what you have done. Over the years, thousands of kits have been produced with a myriad of details. No judge can be expected to be familiar with every kit. If you want credit for your work, make sure the judge knows what you have done.

If the judge ( or judges ) are available after the contest, do not complain about the outcome of the judging. If done properly, the judging will make the judge very tired and quite possibly a little "cranky". You can make his day by just asking him how you might improve your model or your modeling technique. You will learn much more using this approach than questioning his integrity.

Just remember, the fun in a contest is in the building of the model not in the judging of it.

bob

[FloridaBoy]

One other tip I should pass on from experience, both in success and failure, is that if you do something for a contest car, do it well, or expect to get penalized even if you did more work than your competitor on the model.

For example, if you cut out the doors and/or trunk, you need to make jambs, panels, hinges, and make them tight and secure, and the doo/trunk should fit snugly. You might get a couple of points for undertaking the effort, but be penalized more for wobbly ill fitting doors with raging gaps. I have judged cars with doors/trunk unopened higher than a poorly executed door opening, although the modeler devoted more time and energy to the opened door.

So, if you do something, do it well.

Same goes with paint and finish. Shiny paint jobs are fairly common now, with clears so available, and they do improve a model's appearance. But I judge with magnifying hood, and look at the corners, nicks and crannies, and seek out orange peels for unattended paint job. A twenty dollar polishing kit from Detail Associates or other firms will go a long way on a lot of models to produce a very professional finish.

If you look at a car with a black interior, it is not all flat black. The dash gauges and trim are chrome and wood, the handles and knobs are chrome, and the leather black is not flat but has a sheen. Plus there are so many textures and hues of "black" in an interior that anyone who just takes a rattle can and hits the interior is missing out on a lot of opportunity to really enhance your model. I paint my interiors dark gray and use a lot of metallics and flocking here and there, along with simulated wood trim to accent the interiors. But every other modeler has his own approach and technique.

Last, body work. I really judge cars hard that treat body work as an afterthought. Body putty no matter what you use, either Squadron Green, White or Bondo, takes some time to blend, sand, primer and finish. Plus often the underside of the shell may need reinforcement to prevent those minor cracks when handled. I use both Plastruct and 2 part epoxy to strengthen those joints, and constantly test. The reward is that once you complete the body work and prime it properly, it will most likely remain permanent. I have a body work with AMT body putty from 1961 that still hasn't cracked or bled to the surface.

I hope these few tips can help those who enter contests a little. I am no means a big winner especially lately, as I am now struggling with engine and chassis wiring and details. A few weeks ago, I purchased a magnifying hood and installed a light atop the lenses and realized that my work under regular eyesight was really flawed. I just took apart my mock-ups and re-did most of my projects to stand up to the magnified image. It is worth the effort.

Since I had lurked in many contests down here for the past 10 years, I am striving to keep up with the best examples I have seen, and that is my goal in both workmanship and accuracy. If Chip's, Boyd's, Gene's, Derryl's and George's cars can be driven, by gosh so can mine......in scale that is.

Good luck and hope to see some of you at our November show in Deerfield Beach. This time I will not be a judge but a competitor.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[bobss396]

I had to laugh at the wheel falling off the car incident. It happened to me at a contest I was judging and I had to FIND the runaway wheel in a crowd of people, not fun. However the car was looked at again but ultimately did not make the top three picks in the class.

Bob

[Steve D.]

The thing about judging is , that it is a volentary thing , that often invites personal feelings about the model being judged . One guy will say "thats too shiney for a race car " , another will say "the flaps on a P-51 Mustang should'nt hang down that far" . While both of these comments might be true , they could also quite possibly be wrong.

A model as it sits on the table is actually a "snapshot" of a particular item , frozen in time as it were . As for the race car , has the judge actually seen this particular car before a race , to know that it was not not that shiney after all . And if he has , has he also seen all the other cars that this model is competing against ? If he has , then he certainly can make the comparason , if he has'nt he should not .

As for the P-51 Mustang , after the plane has been sitting for a couple of hours , the hydraulic pressure bleeds off and the flaps droop ..... your kidding ... not EVERYONE knows that ? (not that they should) . So you have to ask yourself , how long has this aircraft been sitting ... NO YOU DON'T IT'S A SNAP SHOT !

One thing that many judges do , (inadvertantly , I might add) is they use thier particular knowledge of a certain subject in the judging . While this might sound OK , if you don"t have the same knowledge of the other models this item is competing against , it is NOT OK . This "EXPERT" knowledge is either going to help or hurt the model in question , unfairly in any case .

A couple of years ago at one of "our" shows (CAPE COD) there was an audible gasp when the top aircraft was announced . As it turns out the judges were not that experienced and had made a mistake . (that was determined later) So now we as a club try to do a better job of putting judging teams togrther , at least two experienced and one novice ! Needless to say our club was taken to task on the internet over that one . All I can say is "WE'LL TRY "to not let it happen again....not that it won't .

In closing , if you have never judged , give it a shot , you will be amazed at how much you will learn . And if you have , and do judge , THANK YOU , we all APPRECIATE IT .( even though we SOMETIMES bitch!) Steve D.

[vwdave92]

I've never judged a model contest but I have done a few 1:1 car contests and competed in several contests. The one thing I can say for certain is no one will ever make everyone happy. There is always going to be someone upset about the decisions. And when you're talking about subjective judging (that one's just prettier...) it just makes matters worse.

All that said... if you get the chance to be a judge... take it. Even if you never do it again, you will have a whole new respect for what the judges go through. I would guess that in most cases anyone complaining about judge's decisions has never done any judging themselves.

Personally ... I never expect to win anything. Just seeing people look and comment on my work is enough for me.

Dave

[Harry P.]

This may be stating the obvious...but people who enter a contest (which is by definition a competition designed to determine a "winner") should not be put off if they don't win!

The "winners" of a judged event will always be determined by a process that inevitably contains a large amount of subjectivity. Different judges have different ideas as to what a "winning" model is, and the criteria, as well as the judges, vary greatly from one contest to another.

If you're going to compete against others in contests, be prepared for what to you may seem to be "bad" judging...because your opinion will vary from others'.

Personally I don't enter contests, because I build for my own enjoyment, not to be judged against others. But if you're into the competitive side of modeling, realize what you're getting into...and be ready to accept opinions of your work that may not coincide with your own.

[bigphoto]

My .02 pennies,

I am the head judge at an IPMS contest and I can agree with the comments made here, and would like to interject some thoughts. The IPMS rules are clear and state that the quality of the build is what makes a winner. That way even an essentially out of the box build can be picked as a winner over a "wallet built" model. Yes there will always be some whizzing and moaning but we must realize that if you build for contests be prepared to be disappointed as one cannot win all the time, and first and foremost one must be happy with their build regardless of what some judges at a contest think because this is a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be recreational

[FloridaBoy]

To me, judging either makes or breaks a contest or a contest series, bar none. The size of the trophies or the location is only minor, as there are modelers who feel there is a level playing field will drive through Death Valley to put a car down to compete. I watched a local contest go down the tubes over crooked judging, and to try to pump life in a dying mule, the club president recruited me to judge, and what a trip that was.

So, most people find it easy to rag on or blame a judge when their model loses, because the judge is unable to substantiate his findings, and that is why I adapted my 100 point system I sort of borrowed from our local IPMS. I like to think it helps me be as objective as possible, but I cannot speak for other judges.

On the other hand, audience voting winners is deeply flawed as well, again, the objectivity is lost to superficial cars with possible no underside or interior details, painted red or shiny attention getting colors, and friends will vote friends rather than cars. Plus, a lot of spectators are not versed in the hobby and they would not know the difference between two shiny cars from a distance.

The answer is planning. When you plan a contest, appoint the judges early in the contest, and make sure they follow some basic rules of integrity and have a "thick skin" and some product knowledge.

As for me, I have my own rules. I will not judge unless allowed to use my own system and scoring sheets, will not judge a contest I entered, even if out of class. I also will shy away from judging a contest in which I know the contestants, but that is difficult, and I use some discretion and some caution. Judging out of my class is a total no-no, as I know absolutely nothing about some Pro-Stocks, Nascars, some Trucks, but can hold myself in most other classes. I do not know the firing order of any engine, by the way.

Since I developed my 100 point system, I have only been attacked once, and he was off his medication (really). I am by far the perfect judge, but contest organizers should start to appoint judges early and train them and use a objective level playing field system, and allow for less frequent but ever present errors.

As for entrants, I feel that there always is a certain amount of courage that one has to decide to put his cars down, and many times I have seen excellent modelers bring stuff to show "on the side" simply because they were too "reluctant" to enter. There is a sign over the entranceway to Centre Court Wimbledon for contestants, that is best paraphrased, "If you can treat victory and defeat in the same manner, you will always be a winner."

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman