Clear coating race car models. Should they be that shiny?!

[IMSANUT]

I totally agree , my point I was trying to convey was not everyone strives to acheive 1000% dead nuts accuracy. ( me included)

my point was and I may be way off base here is, but I think most builders start a project with an image in there head.

If the finished product reflects that image,,, they are and very much should be ,,,,, happy with it, ( myself included ) even if a judge dis-agrees .

If someone looks in my case and THEY see what I had in my minds eye, I acheived my goal and i'm happy with that result.

Don't get me wrong I look at some of the builds that are and have been shown here that are off the charts. Especially some of the all scratchbuilts being completed. I simply don't have the time, inclination (aka mostly desire +/or talent) to pull off something similar to them.

Well put. No problem at all with this.

[kalbert]

On the other hand the model car hobby has always had a more "creative' side to it. A sort of "do your own thing" mentality that is acceptable even though fidelity to the real subject may be missing. And although it has slowly been changing in recent years, we modelers have paid the price for this more loose attitude in the products that the manufacturers have given us. We all know of the many, many kits that have been marketed with inaccuracies and multiple errors in scale fidelity, markings, and other areas. We as consumers have accepted this and bought the products in spite of this, where buyers in other hobby segments have not.

Are you insinuating that because some people don't build models they way you do, that this has somehow allowed model kit makers to loosen their belt and lower their standards of accuracy??? New tool kits are on a level of accuracy never before seen! I honestly don't think any model kit maker sets their bar lower just because some people like to put too much clear on a race car.

[Pete J.]

That's because it's all just one big sticker. Watch the Joe Gibbs video above.

Very true, but you are not going to get a decal that will replicate that are you? How do you do that without a coating of some sort over the top?

[Harry P.]

Are you insinuating that because some people don't build models they way you do, that this has somehow allowed model kit makers to loosen their belt and lower their standards of accuracy??? New tool kits are on a level of accuracy never before seen! I honestly don't think any model kit maker sets their bar lower just because some people like to put too much clear on a race car.

Now you're getting into a whole 'nother can of worms... why it is that model car builders are more willing to accept sub-par models than military or RR modelers. It has nothing to do with clear.

[2002p51]

Are you insinuating that because some people don't build models they way you do, that this has somehow allowed model kit makers to loosen their belt and lower their standards of accuracy??? New tool kits are on a level of accuracy never before seen! I honestly don't think any model kit maker sets their bar lower just because some people like to put too much clear on a race car.

No, I don't mean that at all. Revell's '50 Olds, the new '57 Ford 2-door sedan, and the '57 Chevy 150 sedan are amazing kits in their accuracy and detail, just to name a few, and people are buying them. But we also recently had Trumpeter's recent series of kits that were merely rough approximations of '64 Falcons and modelers lined up to buy them too.

My point is that, although it has been slowly getting better, we car modelers, as a market, have been much less fussy about accuracy and scale fidelity in the products we buy. Therefore the kit manufacturers have been less willing to invest the time and money into producing kits that reach the level of detail and accuracy that the typical model railroad product has.

For many years we sent the clear message to kit manufacturers that we, as a group, are not concerned about absolute accuracy.

And that brings us back to the original point of this thread. There is still a fairly large segment of this hobby that builds to a certain taste and is simply not as concerned about scale fidelity, or plausible realism, as is the typical model railroader or military modeler.

[Pete J.]

I have also been active in IPMS chapters in the past and see the same thing in military modelers. Absolute accuracy and scale fidelity rule the day.

Drew - This is true but the issue I have with this statement and the "clear coat" question is this. Look and any "how too" from the military guys and none of them follow the same process at was used to create the 1:1 scale stuff. The process they use is generally a coat of future to get a high gloss finish to put the decal on followed by a clear coat of flat or semigloss. The 1:1s are generally painted with a stencil but this is the process that they follow to get that look. To get a even gloss(no I did not say super glossy) across the model with decals you are going to have to clear coat it to make it look the same. The level of finish work that you do should replicate that gloss.

If a modeler puts too much clear on and it looks out of scale, that is not right. I have seen far too many models on the table that the clear is applied to thickly. Don't like that at all. I have also heard people say the urethane paint does that. Not true. If you spray it the way it is off the automotive shelf you will get to much on the model. It can be thinned to a more appropriate level. I think Mark Jones does a great job of that. Very much in scale.

Also while on the subject of military modelers, "Scale effect" has been a real issue in that community for years. I have seen model aircraft painted with the real deal paint from the same can as was used to paint the real aircraft and it looks way too dark on a model. Most aircraft modelers add a bit of white to their paints. At distance, real aircraft appear lighter. It is just a trick the eyes play on us. In automotive modeling the same thing happens with the gloss and orange peel and stickers. The further you get away from them the better they look. Almost all cars as they come from the factory have an unevenness to their paint jobs. It looks like a mild orange peel, but you have to get right next to the vehicle to see it. A high end paint job that you get on show cars is the result of hours of meticulous sanding to get rid of that unevenness. On a road car, the natural unevenness of the paint becomes less apparent as you move away from it. If someone put a production car finish on a model, it would look horrible. Scale effect in my opinion, should be accounted for. The gloss level should be about what you see at 20 feet on a real car. Very few people get their face closer that one foot when looking at a model and it should reflect(sorry for the pun) that level of gloss.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Pete J.

[IMSANUT]

No, I don't mean that at all. Revell's '50 Olds, the new '57 Ford 2-door sedan, and the '57 Chevy 150 sedan are amazing kits in their accuracy and detail, just to name a few, and people are buying them. But we also recently had Trumpeter's recent series of kits that were merely rough approximations of '64 Falcons and modelers lined up to buy them too.

My point is that, although it has been slowly getting better, we car modelers, as a market, have been much less fussy about accuracy and scale fidelity in the products we buy. Therefore the kit manufacturers have been less willing to invest the time and money into producing kits that reach the level of detail and accuracy that the typical model railroad product has.

For many years we sent the clear message to kit manufacturers that we, as a group, are not concerned about absolute accuracy.

And that brings us back to the original point of this thread. There is still a fairly large segment of this hobby that builds to a certain taste and is simply not as concerned about scale fidelity, or plausible realism, as is the typical model railroader or military modeler.

Truth. Think AAR Cuda for instance.

[2002p51]

Very true, but you are not going to get a decal that will replicate that are you? How do you do that without a coating of some sort over the top?

Well, fortunately for me at least, I have absolutely zero interest in building modern NASCAR race cars so it's not an issue.

[Pete J.]

Now you're getting into a whole 'nother can of worms... why it is that model car builders are more willing to accept sub-par models than military or RR modelers. It has nothing to do with clear.

Harry, I don't think it is true that car modelers are willing to accept sub-par models. They are just unwilling to pay for them. The Japanese manufacturers put out some really faithful and accurate models and the web site if full of people howling about prices. A good 1:35 scale tank lists for $50 to $80 and a top quality 1:25 scale car from the same manufacture is in the same range. Tamiya's RB6 lists for $105. There are a lot of automotive builders who are stuck in the 60's when it comes to price. They gripe if the cost is over $20 and complain that the kit is BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH. Well, you get what you pay for. Stuff that is made with 50's technology and 50's methods is cheap, but the quality is exactly what you would expect for that price. When we quit buying cheap kits, they will quit repoping them.

[2002p51]

Harry, I don't think it is true that car modelers are willing to accept sub-par models.

How then do you explain the sales of the Trumpeter Falcons or those awful Revell COT Cup cars?

[Harry P.]

Harry, I don't think it is true that car modelers are willing to accept sub-par models.

It is absolutely true! Not for all modelers, of course, but for the majority. I mean, how many times have we heard the tired old "but we're modelers... we can fix those mistakes" line when talking about a new (or reissued) kit?

If car modelers weren't buying junk kits, the manufacturers wouldn't be making them! If kits with poor detail, bad proportions, wonky parts fit, etc. were rejected by people... if those kits sat on the shelves and nobody bought them... the manufacturers would clean up their act big time, and ASAP. The fact that lousy kits sell tells the manufacturers that their consumers are willing to buy them.

Not all car kits are bad. Not even most of them, probably. But a large chunk of them are bad, and they sell. As long as the manufacturers can keep cranking out reissue after reissue after reissue of some lousy old kit tooled up literally a half century ago and sell them, they have little incentive to knock off that practice and produce newly tooled, better kits.

Model kit manufacturers have the capability to make better kits. What they don't have is a good business reason to do so, as long as their consumers for the most part (again, not all of them) are less than demanding.

[Jay]

How then do you explain the sales of the Trumpeter Falcons or those awful Revell COT Cup cars?

Revell hasn't produced any CoT cars Drew... I assume you mean AMT? They really aren't that bad. They make great shelfers and can provide a decent base for a super detailer.

And going back to my points about cleared over body wraps... those cars are purpose built for the plate tracks ONLY! They typically hang new sheet metal after those races anyway because of the bump drafting, rubbing and whatnot. I have been next to Jamie McMurray's Daytona winner and can tell you with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, the entire car was cleared over. The contingencies, numbers, and the large vinyl camo swatches all around the car. There was not one edge from vinyl exposed. Some teams will actually go through the trouble of painting the roof and door numbers instead of using a decal!

Again, I would say try to duplicate your reference or period to get as close a finish as possible. I bounce around with 2 part clear or lacquers depending on the era or reference. Some Tamiya paints buff out nicely without any clear at all!

There ain't a lick of clear on this Z06 at all!

[Pete J.]

Way to take what I said out of context!

[CadillacPat]

Lots of prejudicial angry terms like syrup, dipping, and telling people they obviously accept sub par finishes to their models.

Still sounds like sour grapes encounters with judges who didn't pick their cars to win.

Remember, the Models come in a box, Builders do not. Builders cannot be placed in neat little categories that adhere exactly to supposed rules set by disgruntled Contest applicants.

When did building Model Cars, and painting them. become a one way street??

It is ludicrous and shallow to expect people to walk the line and do as they are "expected" to do.

Imagine a Model Show (I'd rather Model Shows than Model Contests) where every car was built exactly to one set of standards (whatever standards really means).

Boy, wouldn't that be exciting and fun to see------------NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could some of this just be that some do not wish to set up for Urethane Clears or the so called time consuming task of AirBrushing and the oh so misunderstood task of cleaning the gun?

You know, the "ease" of using a rattlecan.

Some even speak of the difficulty of AirBrushing Clear, so they don't.

A guy just bought the Batmodbile to display in his living room.

Does the fact that he will display it in his living room and not the garage make the Batmobile less accurately a car?

No, and neither does a good efficient and protective ClearCoat.

Throughout this thread I see the same 4 or 5 people telling everyone that their idea of accuracy is the only way to go.

Yet I see a lot of other people in this thread who pay no attention to what others attempt to dictate.

That's how Model Building is. We as Modelers and painters do not fit into neat little cubbyholes.

We can't be told what to do, no matter how many times you repeat yourself in a thread.

When you're sitting at your desk building, the one thing that never enters into your mind is some guy whining,"Too much clear"

Believing that your own idea of "accuracy" is the only definition of accuracy is rather selfish and foolish.

Throughout the course of Automobile manufacturing cars could be ordered in an infinite number of ways with an infinite number of accessories.

Any one person's idea of accuracy goes right out the window.

I'm glad to see so many understand a good protective coat of clear, especially Urethane Clear, will bring their Models to life.

And if you really like that dry look, well it's your money.

CadillacPat

[Dragline]

Build for yourself = Happiness.

Build for others = Not so much

Here is a music analogy since I am [or was] a working musician for over 20 years.

Back many moons ago i had a dream to be in an original band playing self composed music. This is the dream of many an aspiring musician. I had chops and was sort of clever, i surrounded myself with like minded players with similar tastes and abilities. We wrote music.

NOW, this was challenging and engaging music to be sure. It was what WE wanted to hear and play. We enjoyed the works of particular players and that informed not only our individual styles but the group as a whole ran in these particular ways as a result. To say that we were greeted with open arms and applause would be an outright lie. We were gawked at, nearly vilified. It was called "strange", "complicated", "hard to listen to"

If we wanted popularity we didn't go about it correctly. We were playing what we heard in our minds and were simply offering it to others. That they didn't understand it was NOT our problem. Nor should it have been. BUT., I did have a dream to make a living doing this and it was a sobering reminder of what playing what you want and playing what the people want are two entirely different things.

So, after a couple of years of this I ended up playing in some cover and tribute bands. I felt the sting and didn't like it at all. Were we playing correctly? You bet we were. Were we tight? I have recordings of it. They stand up very well indeed. Were we going to get rich off it? NO WAY in H E double hockysticks!

I made more money playing other peoples "Popular" music than I ever did playing my own. Which was more satisfying? My own of course. I can count on one maybe two hands how many times I have played some of my own compositions, but I cannot tell you how many times I've played say "Crazy Train" or "Some Kind Of Wonderful".

The point of this is that I have had more enjoyment doing my own thing than any other thing. The same goes for what I build. I get the whole accuracy thing. I admire it and I do strive for it at times. But for me it's about creativity. OOB builds or some slammed together cobbled up junker. I admire those that go the extra mile [Dave T, Mark Jones, Harry et al...] And I do get ALL the points offered here.

As long as myself and my Pops are happy with it. That's good enough for me. BUT, I'm always willing to learn

Bob

[2002p51]

Revell hasn't produced any CoT cars Drew... I assume you mean AMT?

They may well be from AMT. I wasn't sure because I never bought any and wouldn't.

[Harry P.]

As long as myself and my Pops are happy with it. That's good enough for me. BUT, I'm always willing to learn

Bob

That's a very healthy attitude, IMO.

BTW... there's no shame in being a good cover band. A couple of bands that you may have heard of started out doing a lot of covers, and they wound up doing alright for themselves... are you familiar with the Beatles and the Rolling Stones?

[2002p51]

And going back to my points about cleared over body wraps... those cars are purpose built for the plate tracks ONLY! They typically hang new sheet metal after those races anyway because of the bump drafting, rubbing and whatnot. I have been next to Jamie McMurray's Daytona winner and can tell you with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, the entire car was cleared over. The contingencies, numbers, and the large vinyl camo swatches all around the car. There was not one edge from vinyl exposed. Some teams will actually go through the trouble of painting the roof and door numbers instead of using a decal!

And I can tell you with absolute certainty that they aren't. The vinyl used for wraps is very thin and it can be very difficult to see the seams, but they are there if you know where to look.

Here's the deal, the one thing you have to realize is that racing may be a sport to you and me but running a race team is a business. And like any other business, to be successful and to stay in business you have to watch the cost of overhead and labor. Three or four guys can wrap a car in an hour or two, versus a mulit-color paint job that may take a couple of days in the paint booth. Now figure in the fact that sponsor schemes are now changed almost on a race-to-race basis and it just makes poor business practice to paint these cars any more. Compare how long it would take to completely change the paint from one scheme to another compared to peeling off the wrap and putting on a new one.

And trust me, NOBODY is painting numbers any more. Even your local Saturday night hobby racers use vinyl for that!

[David Thibodeau]

Come on Drew.... Jay saw the car in the flesh at Daytona USA where they put the 500 winner each year. I have seen it as well the car was completely cleared over. It was way to smooth for vinyl with barely any raised edges on anything. I also have pics of Gordon's 2005 winner at Daytona USA and it was the exact same way. MANY teams clear over the bodies on the super speedway tracks its a known fact.

[2002p51]

And for the last 30 years I've been been in the Cup garages from coast to coast, but what do I know.

[David Thibodeau]

And for the last 30 years I've been been in the Cup garages from coast to coast, but what do I know.

Not everything like you think you do!

I built Mr Hendrick his son's winning supertruck and presented it to him in Oct of 2011. I snapped this picture. All those guys are fixed operations directors at his dealerships across the country.... It was a most memorable day for me...........

Think Rick Hendrick is thinking "too much clear" ??????

And yes.... I cleared OVER the decals on the build because they were alps decals and I did not want the ink rubbing off over time......

Edited April 20, 2013 by David Thibodeau

[Dragline]

That's a very healthy attitude, IMO.

BTW... there's no shame in being a good cover band. A couple of bands that you may have heard of started out doing a lot of covers, and they wound up doing alright for themselves... are you familiar with the Beatles and the Rolling Stones?

I am familiar with those particular bands Harry. Being 48 [not a milestone quite yet] I am in the position to have welcomed a few of their albums initially as well as Zep and Black Sabbath. My Hippy parents had quite a collection of vinyl. If my post hinted at sour grapes let me say that my life being a musician has been NOTHING but amazing experiences that most would only hope for, and many nights in the company of ladies that just defy explanation and occasionally gravity.. I am very happy indeed when life is either wound forward or backward.

Time to grab that old Gibson off the wall and play a while.

Oh, and I WILL learn through this thread. I already have...

Dave T...... That clearcoat looks POYFECT...

Bob

[David Thibodeau]

I am familiar with those particular bands Harry. Being 48 [not a milestone quite yet] I am in the position to have welcomed a few of their albums initially as well as Zep and Black Sabbath. My Hippy parents had quite a collection of vinyl. If my post hinted at sour grapes let me say that my life being a musician has been NOTHING but amazing experiences that most would only hope for, and many nights in the company of ladies that just defy explanation and occasionally gravity.. I am very happy indeed when life is either wound forward or backward.

Time to grab that old Gibson off the wall and play a while.

Oh, and I WILL learn through this thread. I already have...

Dave T...... That clearcoat looks POYFECT...

Bob

Thanks Bob

[Guest G Holding]

I have been a good boy, kept my mouth shut for 8 pages.

I love to see and hear the same old from....the same old.

(THAT IS DREW AND DAVE)

Drew is good....and will never change

Dave is good....and will never change

Now I can get all the bitter comments directed at me....OK

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU WANT...UNLESS YOU ARE PAYING ME.

I REALLY LAUGH AT THE PASSIONS OVER A CLEARCOAT...........

OK back to your regular programing!

[zenrat]

When this thread was first posted I thought "here we go again. Same old can of worms getting opened" and I knew it would end up like this.

It's your model, do what you want.

Total accuracy is an impossible goal because I will always be able to find something out of scale on your build.

If you're building for a judged contest then go find the judge and ask them.

There, problem solved.

Now, as the worms are already out. What exactly makes for a muscle car?...