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edward smith

How shiny should shiny be?

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For one urethane maybe toxic but you or no one can tell me that the ###### Tamiya paint or even testers is not a toxic specialy when it blows out of the can at 75psi into the air. That ###### will get you just as sick if not worse because its in a can then using Urethane... Using an airbrush and shoot it at 12psi and as small as a model car body is a lot different then shooting a hood or any thing of 1:1. The air and urethane ratio is a lot less and if you have a paint booth it cuts it down even more. You can controal the air and how much of it comes out of the airbrush compare to using any can type paint.

Sorry but that deal of Urethane should only be sold to people that has a permit is ######!

Now for the shine! In the mid 80s the true Trailer queen cars was having any where between 10 to 15 coats of clear on them go back and read some of the magazine on how they did there paint jobs! They achive the same doing it this way as we do now only doing 1 coat of urethane. If you want to build a trailer queen car of today then use urethane, Also I think a lot of people forget of today that 90% of the 30s cars are not steel, They are fiberglass cars and with paint lay'ed down right and clear coated and wet sanded with any clear coat you will get the same afect!

Very true, it was common to have over 10 coats of lacquer clear on a show car paint job. However, as one who was around and using a spray gun on 1:1 stuff back in the '70s I can tell you that not only was each coat of lacquer much thinner than one coat of urethane but the lacquer was color sanded every 2-3 coats to level it out. So the total thickness of clear on top of the paint was usually less than or equal to the thickness of one coat of urethane.

Clear is just a tool for achieving a result. It's a tool that can be misused, I've seen gorgeous urethane clear topcoats and I've seen horrendous ones. "Shine" isn't the only factor in making a finish attractive, a model or a 1:1 car can have a deep wet shine and still not look good.

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Back to the subject of urethanes for a moment...

There are all those scary warnings on the product label for a reason! Urethane paint is nasty stuff that can cause harm when not handled with the appropriate precautions.

Of course, ultimately we all make our own decisions, and if someone wants to use urethane paint on a model without the proper precautions and equipment, that's their right and their call... but to know the facts about the stuff before you dive in is a good thing, isn't it? Doesn't knowing the facts before you decide make for an informed decision?

Instead of ripping the guys who are trying to tell you the facts about the stuff, maybe you should take what they are telling you seriously and think about whether or not the risks and potential harm that urethanes can cause are worth it to you.

Like I said, ultimately it's your decision... but having the facts before you decide is a good thing.

Thanks Harry, I couldn't have said it better myself; if I tried B) Edited by Krazy Rick

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Back to the subject of urethanes for a moment...

There are all those scary warnings on the product label for a reason! Urethane paint is nasty stuff that can cause harm when not handled with the appropriate precautions.

Of course, ultimately we all make our own decisions, and if someone wants to use urethane paint on a model without the proper precautions and equipment, that's their right and their call... but to know the facts about the stuff before you dive in is a good thing, isn't it? Doesn't knowing the facts before you decide make for an informed decision?

Instead of ripping the guys who are trying to tell you the facts about the stuff, maybe you should take what they are telling you seriously and think about whether or not the risks and potential harm that urethanes can cause are worth it to you.

Like I said, ultimately it's your decision... but having the facts before you decide is a good thing.

Urethanes are nasty! I have friends that only shoot urethane clear. With one friend's help, I cleared one model with urethane. If mastered, you can get a great high gloss shine without polishing. But the toxic nature of the stuff and the ease in which you can bury a 1:25 scale model's details and get that "sealed in amber" look will forever keep me from using it. I do just fine with Tamiya or Testors rattle can clears and a session of wetsanding with Micro Mesh.

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Um..I'll refrain from referring to you as "Dude", "Sport", "Homey" ....or anything else along these lines.. B) ...How about I just Call you "Curtis" & you call me "Rick" B):rolleyes: no disrespect intended; BUT ....Honestly "Curtis".....I find your logic and "comparison attempt", slightly amusing; but mostly ridiculous & pathetic :rolleyes: DON'T take just Marks, or my word for it, please call a manufacturer of this stuff , tell them your using it in a house & see what they say; :rolleyes: ...then ......call a couple doctors; particularly a neurologist & see what they have to say :rolleyes: ...... This is a VERY Serious Subject & should be discussed intelligently; We can only point out the danger of improper use; we're not trying to take the fun of the hobby away; just trying to make it a bit safer for everyone.....whether anyone chooses to take this advise; or not....is entirely up to the individual... Mark & myself are trying to point out ( Who happen to be Pro Painters, with many years experience) , is the FACT; that these two particular chemicals; when combined......make a DEADLY cocktail ...that must be respected when used; All Manufacturers that Produce it, clearly state on the label ; if certain procedure isn't followed....you are risking not only your own health; but anyone who comes in contact with it ( which I consider avoidable neglect ) The Vapour is Deadly Toxic, It will effect The Kidney & Liver, permanent nerve damage & respiratory damage ......The Purpose of the Full Paint Suit, which Mark mentioned earlier.....is to protect the skin.....certain chemicals ( such as this stuff ) ; tend to penetrate without it's use....and will cause NERVE DAMAGE ..... A proper Dual cartridge mask obviously protects the mouth & nose area; membranes/breathing etc, Eye protection is a must ..it WILL DAMAGE THE EYES ........Also, when it is applied Professionally....it is used in a paint both which is setup specifically for application....it is a sealed environment; contamination is contained. I am merely stating FACTS, this IS NOT a personal attack; on you....or anyone else using it; I am merely stating that ALL safety steps should be taken.....Stated on Urethane Containers .... IT SAYS .......This Product should be used by Professionals Only .... For industrial use only by Professional,TRAINED Personnel....It's on there FOR A REASON B) .....the FACT is, that this stuff is NASTY,NASTY, NASTY !!! There's lots of different paint choices out there, ALOT SAFER than the Urethane; that will give you a decent finish...Ya..it's "Shiny" B) I very much doubt if modellers will stop using it, immediatley after reading our discussion here; but at least they may think twice about using it safely.......and ask themselves ..... is it really worth all the risk to get that shine? B)B)

ok your right, bad comparison, so lets only let professionals handle beer and cigarets they are just as dangorous if not worse, yet it is completly legal. i dont paint in the house anyways nor do i use urathane clear but im always outside and being carefull (painting away from the wind, and when it starts smelling strong i stop until it goes away) so i dont have a problem, i could see wearing a suit and resperator and other safety equipment in a enclosed container (paint booth) panting a 1:1 car with it but outside with a model its no more dangorous or deadly and toxic then clear out of a spray can.

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Urethanes are nasty! I have friends that only shoot urethane clear. With one friend's help, I cleared one model with urethane. If mastered, you can get a great high gloss shine without polishing. But the toxic nature of the stuff and the ease in which you can bury a 1:25 scale model's details and get that "sealed in amber" look will forever keep me from using it. I do just fine with Tamiya or Testors rattle can clears and a session of wetsanding with Micro Mesh.

Exactly, Marc. You nailed it.....you cleared ONE model, and you formed your opinion. Trust me, I understand your frustration, and your wariness to continue using urethane. I really do.

Before I continue with this reply, I want to 'clear' up one thing.....professional grade acrylic urethane is NOT "AMBER". It's CRYSTAL CLEAR. Please don't confuse the modern 2-part automotive-grade ACRYLIC urethanes with the old nasty POLYurethanes of the past. It's not the same animal.

Unfortunately, many adventurous model builders who choose to shoot 2-part urethane clear over a model for the first time never mature past that point. They have a bad, or unsatisfactory experience, so they 'chalk it up', wash their hands of it, and go back to their particular comfort zone, be it enamel, lacquer, water-based acrylics, whatever. That's all fine and good, BUT, then you'll have hit a wall with your modeling/finishing skills. How about MASTERING the use of urethane, and THEN form an opinion one which you prefer, and why. Again, I understand why many prefer to just use basic Testors enamel. It's easy, it's traditional, it's cheap, etc. I have a close friend who has been building for 50 years. He prefers Testors #1814 spray bomb clear. Hey, it works for him, and he's happy with the results. Who am I to argue?

That said, if you'll go back and read my earlier post, which many obviously have not, you'll see where I mentioned PROPER MIXING and application, AND the fact that urethane can be REDUCED in viscosity. Once reduced, urethane will airbrush as lightly and smoothly as a healthy dose of enamel or lacquer. PROPERLY applied to a 1/25 scale model, urethane WILL give you a THIN, GLOSSY finish. Take this from someone who sprays nitrocellulose LACQUER daily. I'm a full-time luthier, and have been spraying guitars for almost 30 years. I've used EVERY type of finish out there (including varnish and French-polished shellac!), and lacquer IS my finish of choice on GUITARS.......just not on model cars. Again, I detailed why in my previous post.

At this point, I've said just about all I can say, and I'll gracefully bow out of this conversation. There have been some excellent points made in this discussion, and the safety aspects have been WELL covered (genuine THANKS to those who posted......ALWAYS safety first!). Unfortunately, many of the posters are misguided and ill-informed, and this Forum will forever be their soapbox. All I can say is, take the time that you've spent here, and go back to the bench. There's absolutely no substitute for hands-on experience. AND, the experienced builders/posters will benefit from zipping their lips, and opening their ears and eyes from time to time. We can ALL improve our skills, that's a fact. I have the photos, posts, and articles to prove it. B)

Mike

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I take Marc's "sealed in amber" statement as referring not to the color, but to the properties of amber that keep anything inside it, such as a stray insect, sealed for thousands of years.

Remember "Jurassic Park?" From Wikipdeia: "...Jurassic Park, a theme park showcasing cloned dinosaurs, which have been recreated using damaged DNA found in mosquitoes that sucked dinosaur blood and were then trapped and preserved in amber."

Edited by sjordan2

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i love how everyone just sees the comparisons in my comments and nothing else WHEN YOUR PAINTING A MODEL ITS ALL DANGOROUS go clear a car with testors rattle cans without a respitatoe and see how you feel after that. IT IS ALL DANGOROUS so yeah useing urathane isnt worth the shine, because it is thinck and burries detail.

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I take Marc's "sealed in amber" statement as referring not to the color, but to the properties of amber that keep anything inside it, such as a stray insect, sealed for thousands of years.

Remember "Jurassic Park?" From Wikipdeia: "...Jurassic Park, a theme park showcasing cloned dinosaurs, which have been recreated using damaged DNA found in mosquitoes that sucked dinosaur blood and were then trapped and preserved in amber."

:rolleyes: You could really be on to something here, this could be an alternative to cryogenic suspension ( I can just imagine the scientists of the future; unearthing groups of modellers encased in urethane blocks !!! ) :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::rolleyes::) !!!

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Would that be some sort of weird respirator/potato combination? Or, perhaps a respirator that uses potatoes as filters? :rolleyes:

Yes, when you wear your "Respirato"; you reduse most of the Dangor...and thats makes it beetters :)

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Sorry, but you're just flat-out wrong. Hobby paints, including Testors and Tamiya lacquers, are nowhere near as toxic as urethane. That's just fact. Hobby paints, when used with proper ventilation, pose little or no danger to the user. The same definitely CANNOT be said of urethane, a point others have tried repeatedly to make and you have repeatedly chosen to ignore.

i havent ignored it i know its dangourous but my pint is so are hobby paints, it ALL depends on ventalation. but people who say urathane isnt worth the shine it gives you i agree with, its not great, i just painted a car black and no clear or anything its as shiney as some urathane jobs ive seen

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But then again it depends on the purpose of the build. If you are just building for your shelf, and you just want a long row of shiny models, by all means shine them up, but at the same time you shouldn't expect to get rewarded come trophy time for a model with an unrealistic finish. On customs, street machines, and street rods I love a miles deep shine, but on a factory stock, or traditional rod (not rat) i like just smooth and glossy.

but in the end it depends on how realistic some one wants to build their models. I say if you already have low-profile wheels and tires so big they wouldn't actually steer, an engine that wouldn't be streetable, or a top fuel engine hooked to the stock 4 cylinder radiator, an alternator attached by nothing but the fan belt, and front fenders with no visible means of support (all things I have seen on models even ones featured in the magazines) the shininess of the paint shouldn't make or break the realism of the build.

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The use of urethane paint, while in the right hands can produce remarkable results, isn't the only route to shiny paint. Any gloss paint can be made to shine, as the shine is a result of how smooth the finish is with proper polishing and waxing even regular solid colors can look miles deep. with metallic and pearls you must use a clear coat as the particles of pearl and metal flake will get exposed and look bad.

Urethane is simply a harder finish that polishes easier.

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Now, "Respirato," I'm fairly sure, was a song by the Eagles! :blink: :blink:

Oh Man, I'm having an emotional flashback....give me a moment to compose myself :):rolleyes::rolleyes::blink::blink::blink:

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maybe i'm way off here, what do i know but it seems to be that the appeal of using urethane clear is that it's an easy way to a wicked hard shine on a model. i agree in that i don't really care for it's looks at all 90% of the time it's used but there are a few builders who do use it with awesome scale finish results. do i personally want any part of it? nope, i'll leave that stuff to the professionals thank you :rolleyes:

there are other ways to a shiny finish but most of those seem to be too labor intensive for most everyone. am i calling most people lazy? maybe, but i'll include myself in that group as well. i'm an incredibly impatient painter, don't want to wait for paint to dry or cure and wish it was dry like yesterday minutes after i apply it. can i have much better paint jobs than i do? i know i can and i'm the one holding myself back not anyone else.

how shiny should "shiny" be? not really an easy, simple answer to that question is there. everyone has thier opinion on the topic. some are right, some are wrong and some who knows!

Hey Dave, please contact me....I tried to get a hold of you Via PM...But couldn't....Something is screwed up with my computer :)

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Now, "Respirato," I'm fairly sure, was a song by the Eagles! ;):lol:

I thought it was "Domo Arigato, Mr. Respirato."

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Respirato...

Why don't you come to your senses?

You've been out riding fences

For so long now...

Great song! ;) Don't know how the Eagles got drawn into this thread, but I love 'em! :lol:

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Respirato...

Why don't you come to your senses?

You've been out riding fences

For so long now...

Great song! :P Don't know how the Eagles got drawn into this thread, but I love 'em! :D

:lol:;):lol::lol::lol: I like your version better than the original!

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Respirato...

Why don't you come to your senses?

You've been out riding fences

For so long now...

Great song! ;) Don't know how the Eagles got drawn into this thread, but I love 'em! :lol:

It was a great Robert Rodriguez movie with Antonio Banderas and (drool, sweat) Salma Hayek.

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ok your right, bad comparison, so lets only let professionals handle beer and cigarets they are just as dangorous if not worse, yet it is completly legal. i dont paint in the house anyways nor do i use urathane clear but im always outside and being carefull (painting away from the wind, and when it starts smelling strong i stop until it goes away) so i dont have a problem, i could see wearing a suit and resperator and other safety equipment in a enclosed container (paint booth) panting a 1:1 car with it but outside with a model its no more dangorous or deadly and toxic then clear out of a spray can.

Hmmm... We don't know each other, so you won't know for sure that I'm not being condescending or mean-spirited when I say this, but you are coming across like a meat-head. I'm not calling you names, but pointed something out, based on my observations. Since no one else will tell you, I will.

You are trying to argue with several individuals who obviously have far greater knowledge and expertise in matters of airborne coatings application

and who also have a firm grasp on the use of English and grammar, with impeccable spelling and punctuation, I might add.

You stated, "...im always outside and being carefull (painting away from the wind, and when it starts smelling strong i stop until it goes away) so i dont have a problem,...".

Ignoring the rampant misspelling and flagrant lack of punctuation, let's focus on the admission that you stop when the smell becomes too strong.

That means clearly, beyond all doubt, that you have inhaled the stuff!

I beg you...please stop using urethane.

And please, learn to spell.

Thank you.

Your friend,

joemac

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I never said that urathane is not toxic, i said that any clear like that is toxic, and some might be more toxic than others. And it must have been my puctuation and spelling that made you miss the part right before that quote where i said "nor do i use urathane" so i clearly beyond all doubt DON'T use urathane. Now, the thing idont understand is why, obviously you and other people, keep thinking that i said urathane is not toxic BECAUSE I DIDN'T i said they all are toxic, several times now actually. By the way i do know how to spell, but i was in a hurry and was typeing fast and i cant use spell check on this stupid thing, so come on you really dont have to mention my typos what 3 times? Thats something you do when you are trying to insult someone. and please dont say your my friend, i dont know you and this is the first time i have said anything to you. It doesnt mean i wouldnt want to know you but come on

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Hey, I'm everyone's friend.

Are you still typing in a hurry?

Please don't try to inform me of my behavior or motives.

If I were going for insults, you would know it.

I wasn't.

**********************************

I think that the smoothness of the surface is more important than the degree of gloss, as it is the imperfections that detract from the realism in miniatures. The lighting can also make or break the illusion being sought.

I think cured enamel and lacquer that have been polished lead to more realistic finishes than the wet look of urethane. A couple of mill of clear on a scaled-down model would be half and inch thick on a 1:1.

Edited by joemac

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no i wasnt in a hurry and i made 3 or 4 mistakes, when im writeing on a professional bassis i punctuate correctly and spell more carefully. but then agian im sure its really easy for you to hit pell check, then correct me on my grammer

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To infinity and beyond !

That is where this thread is headed ! Choice of paints , colors , brands , etc , is up to the individual . Opinions on the aforementiond are like backsides , everybody has one . The trick to it all is to become proficient or beyond that with your choice ! This is where the main stumbling block lies !

Too often , hodgepodge advice , cheap materials , and a complete lack of patience / guidance system , produces paint work that looks like something that the cat puked up . Shine or not to shine ? Who cares ! It's up to the individual ! As long as it's done right is far more important, and therein , the problem lies !

Am I a proponent for urethanes , no , I am not ! Have I seen beautiful results with it , yes , I have ! Let me state for the record , however , far and few between ! The fact that it is ultra toxic scares the living daylights out of me . I'm thinking of the youngsters here , real bad juju , without a doubt ! Spraying outside , letting the wind take it , shooting until the odor gets too strong ? Guess what ? It's on your skin and you're breathing it ! By stating this , what are you teaching the kids that are here ? Everyone knows that when you are young you are both invinceable and immortal ,it won't kill me , Right ? Really bad example !

Harry ,

I'm comin ' outta the closet ..... I want it to be known that I'm an enamel user !Yes , shame on me and Drew , for that matter ! For me , it's strictly enamel ! Why ? , the reasons are endless . The most important , because I figured out how to use it and can produce a quality paint job each and every time !I can do this now because I worked at it , figured out a system / series of steps that I follow each and every time I pick up the airbrush .

Do I always use clear ? , no way ! There is a diffrence between factory and street shine , big time ! Depends on what I'm building or looking for with the finish . Do I still screw up ? Of coarse ! But one out of every ten or fifteen , beats every other paint job by a mile ! Everybody needs to do this ! It's not rocket science , it takes patience and perserverence ! Educate yourselves , that is the beauty of the internet , it's right there at your finger tips !The notion that the internet is destroying the hobby is beyond ridiculous , if anything the exact opposite is true ! I want a glass smooth shine on my models , Why ? For the simple reason that I can produce that type of finish and prefer it to be so , not every one can do this ! After all , they are my models , right ?

Ya'll can sit here and throw rocks at each other all day long about laquer or acrylic or enamel , won't make a diffrence . Neither will shine or not to shine , that all boils down to personal preference . Now , talk to me about how you produce a quality paint job , you'll have my attention all day long !

I don't mean to detract from the original post , it was a legitimate question , one that should be discussed ! I swear that when I was down in North Carolina that I saw Harry's pet pterdactyl stuck in a urethane paint job , entombed for the ages , right there on the show table !I had no intention of even posting on the subject but I sometimes get a mite bit aggravated when the fur starts to fly or dangerous personal habits are put out there for the younger members to see ! Always think of the newbies or youngsters before you type , you just might be leading the unknowing down the path of sin and degredation !

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

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I never said that urathane is not toxic, i said that any clear like that is toxic, and some might be more toxic than others. And it must have been my puctuation and spelling that made you miss the part right before that quote where i said "nor do i use urathane" so i clearly beyond all doubt DON'T use urathane. Now, the thing idont understand is why, obviously you and other people, keep thinking that i said urathane is not toxic BECAUSE I DIDN'T i said they all are toxic, several times now actually. By the way i do know how to spell, but i was in a hurry and was typeing fast and i cant use spell check on this stupid thing, so come on you really dont have to mention my typos what 3 times? Thats something you do when you are trying to insult someone. and please dont say your my friend, i dont know you and this is the first time i have said anything to you. It doesnt mean i wouldnt want to know you but come on

You're right, Curtis. Man, if I got graded or judged every time I made a typo....whew!....I would have failed this test many times over! :)

Mike

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