Lucky 13-The 30Sumt'n Rod

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Thank you guys.

Andrew, I have not thought about these things yet. I have a really spontaneous style of building models. I start with an idea and then make it. Then the next step is done around it etc., etc.. This way the model evolves as it goes and it is not planned ahead. The engine is the perfect example. The other thing is that the details you mentioned are all Ferrari clues and this model at this point has no Ferrari connection at all. See, this model did not start with the idea of making a Ferrari rod. It just started as a "what-if" mixing the 32 with a 34.

The only thing I know so far is that it will have a quick change solid axle with an unconventional suspension set up. I have not decided on the front yet. Figuring out the mounting of the engine has a lot to do with that, as it would determine if I can achieve the stance and look with a solid axle or I would need an independent set up. I may have to reradius the rear wheel wells too, in order to make its butt sit lower and still have the rears tucked a little. Now this is a mod I am definitely NOT looking forward to.

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What you're doing looks great, and I like your idea of building a pushrod V-12 from a Ford smallblock V8.

There is one little problem however, if this were a 1:1 project. Due to things like firing order, static and dynamic balance, and vibration, most all V8s have 90degrees between cylinder banks, and V12s (and V6s) typically have 60degrees. A 90degree V12 made from V8s would be inherently out of balance and would require, at least, a very special crankshaft with offset rod-bearing journals (like the even-fire 90degree V6 engines) to run smoothly. Just thought you'd like to know, in case you didn't, and in case someone knowledgeable in engine design notices. Always good to have a story prepared in advance.

PS. Ford did make a 60degree V6 in many displacements and head configurations. Sometimes called the Cologne engine, some versions have a visual similarity to the little pushrod V8s, but with various port spacings. Two of these could conceivably be the real-world basis for a 60degree V-12.

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What you're doing looks great, and I like your idea of building a pushrod V-12 from a Ford smallblock V8.

There is one little problem however, if this were a 1:1 project. Due to things like firing order, static and dynamic balance, and vibration, most all V8s have 90degrees between cylinder banks, and V12s (and V6s) typically have 60degrees. A 90degree V12 made from V8s would be inherently out of balance and would require, at least, a very special crankshaft with offset rod-bearing journals (like the even-fire 90degree V6 engines) to run smoothly. Just thought you'd like to know, in case you didn't, and in case someone knowledgeable in engine design notices. Always good to have a story prepared in advance.

PS. Ford did make a 60degree V6 in many displacements and head configurations. Sometimes called the Cologne engine, some versions have a visual similarity to the little pushrod V8s, but with various port spacings. Two of these could conceivably be the real-world basis for a 60degree V-12.

Thanks Bill. I honestly did not know these things. But this is exactly what I love about building scale models. Our imagination is the only limit. I am sure that if I was to build the thing in 1:1 it would have taken considerable amount of money, but it would be achievable to build an engine like this. It reminds me of the Cizeta Moroder with its V16 engine it was engineered from the ground up as two flat plane V8s sharing a single block, mounted transversely, with gearing between the two providing a single output from the center of the engine assembly to the longitudinal transmission. Things like this are definitely possible if one has the financial backing needed. And having seen what sort of things are coming out in the street rod world lately, I would definitely not rule out the possibility of creation of such a rod.

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I found the info Ace-Garageguy provided very interesting, so I decided to do some reading about it. Me being me, I wanted to see could an engine like the one I build be made and has anything like that been done before. Two engines popped up right away.

The Ciseta 16V, which is best described as weird. Basically it is two Ferrari V8 engines put together. But it has one solid 90 degree block with one enormous crank, four separate heads and four distributors, but timing and firing order as one single 16 cylinder engine. I am not even going into the (amazing) transmission part as it is irrelevant. Their website is still up and running and claims that for about $600K they can still build you a brand new one.

cizetav16t2.jpg

Then comes the Callaway Cyclone V16

4.0-liter 16 cylinder 90° V angle, 5 valve / cylinder DOHC

v16newsimgyb2.jpg

Apparently, engines like this not only could be build, but have been made in the past and in more than one piece.

Now that I have my doubts about the authenticity of such a concept engine, I can get back to the chassis of this thing. There are quite few things I need to figure out, which is the hard part for me. In order to fit better in the chassis and under the floor, I may have to change the transmission too. For the rear suspension I want to make a set up like the one used in Boyd Coddington's Alumatub. It will be fun.

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It's really great to see you taking an interest in how an engine like you've put together for your model could be made in 1:1. As you've found out, it can, but it's expensive.

Another interesting engine project was Franco Sbarro's 1982 one-off V-12 made from two Kawasaki Z1300 inline six-cylinder engines, supposedly on a common crankshaft with a specially cast block, though I've never actually seen the engine itself. It was built to power his Super 12, which kinda looked like a cross of a VW Golf and a Renault R5.

The 3 liter BRM H-16 F1 engine of '66 was essentially two BRM flat-eights geared together on a common output shaft.

And there are many more even stranger ones out there.

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Thank you Bill.

I knew quite a bit about the Cizeta (I saw it shown in Geneva in '91), but I had never heard of that Colloway before. Sbarro is a nutcase. He created that Design Academy in Switzerland I believe, that makes some insane cars. Most of them are pretty crappy tho. He was at the top of his game back in the late '80s - early '90s IMHO. His Super 12 is way cool tho.

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The steelies are the regular wheels from the 32 5 window kit, but the rears are fitted in a custom aluminum sleeve and then wrapped in an Alumacoupe tires.

thanks for the info. helps out. this is turning out very cool. great work!

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Nice wheels and engines..... lots of decisions to make!!!

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Nice wheels and engines..... lots of decisions to make!!!

Thank you. The engine is decided. The rear suspension and frame set up are decided too. I just opened up the trunk too and made the new windshield frame. Just changed the transmission too and started making a new oil pan.

Pictures coming soon.

I am still on the fence about the front end and interior. I really want a solid axle look, but with a modern twist. There are two different set ups on real cars that I really like, but I don't know if I can pull it off with the space I have in the front. One involves torsion bars and the other air bags. The idea of both is to eliminate any visible shocks and to make like the front axle is just like there by itself.

Here is the first one, which is on the Allumatub. No visible shocks at all, just a solid axle and radius rods.

0408sralumatub16z.jpg

The one from Rob Lowe's Deuce I can't find good pictures of, but basically it has a Z-d frame in the front and air bags under the grille shell instead of spring and two pairs of radius rods - one on the outside and one on the inside of the frame rails.

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Posted · Report post

great reference pic! thank you........

cheers

bryan

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No problem Bryan.

Here is what is going to be at the rear for sure.

0408sralumatub15z.jpg

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nice! any more pics of that frame.......i have such a huge collection of reference pics, and diagrams its insane!

bryan

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i love this build very very cool to watch

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Thank you Richard.

Bryan, I have many pictures of the car, but of the frame this one is the only other picture I have

0408sralumatub13z.jpg

It is a very simple and plain chassis. That is the beauty of it. Also it allows for a very, very low ride without any fancy work on the rails.

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I have been making steady but slow progress on this build while fighting a nasty cold.

I did quite a bit of body work on the coupe. The most notable being the modified firewall which now curves around the air filter.

dsc0749.JPG

Then I started playing with the chassis. The frame now has all its cross members relocated, it is quite short at the rear end (ends before the rear axle) and has new cross members made at the rear.

dsc0746f.jpg

dsc0747l.jpg

Next I had to make the rear axle with a quick change. The quick change came from the parts box and then received styrene rod axle with some aluminum tubing sleeves. Then I cut four identical flanges from thin styrene sheet. Both the radius rods and the coil over shocks will be mounted to those.

dsc0744zz.jpg

Here they are attached to the axle

dsc0745p.jpg

And this is how the rear end should look like when put together.

dsc0748cf.jpg

Now I need to make the radius rods themselves and two shorter ones for the top of the diff to triangulate the whole thing.

Thanks for looking.

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So I made the radius rods from some brass tubing, wire and some jam nuts from hexagon rod. I wanted them to be strong. Eventually they would be Alcladed with the rest of the suspension components that I want chrome.

dsc0775p.jpg

I also started shaping the brace for the upper rods on top of the diff. I capped the backs of the brackets for the lower rods. Right now everything is in a rough shape, but once all the elements are in place, both the frame and the rear end will be puttied where necessary and sanded smooth before the first coat of primer.

dsc0776fh.jpg

I just wanted to mock the whole thing up, just to check the alinement and fitment.

dsc0777q.jpg

Next come the shocks. Stay tuned and thank you for looking.

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Just read through this post and have to say your doing an amazing job so far. Very nice work all around. Keep it going and thanks for sharing.

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awsome updates and i love the firewall and aircleaner set up !!!!

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Mike, Richard, thank you both.

I was feeling restless last night and dusted off my lathe and made some aluminum pulleys for the engine. I also tried to make shocks (first time ever) but I am not happy with them and will remake them.

dsc0778ke.jpg

dsc0780k.jpg

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NICE WORK MICHAEL!

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Thank you Ira.

Here are the new shocks I made. They still need some finessing and the springs.

dsc0781x.jpg

That is where they will go in relation to the connecting rods.

dsc0782c.jpg

This is what it should look like underneath when it is all done. In this picture you can also see the brackets on the frame and the diff for the shorty con rods that would triangulate the rear. Once the whole model is done, there should be nothing visible other than the axle when viewed from behind.

dsc0783l.jpg

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Posted · Report post

wow!! that is killer!

nice work

bryan

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Thanks Bryan.

Can anyone recommend me a material (wire) to use for the springs, please? I would like it to actually work like a real spring. I am not making the suspension functional, but would like the springs to give some support.

Thank in advance.

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why not check out some cheap ink pens for spings, ive used them before, and the great thing is you dont have to bend them! its hard to find the right size tho....

bryan

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why not check out some cheap ink pens for spings, ive used them before, and the great thing is you dont have to bend them! its hard to find the right size tho....

bryan

I thought of that, but they are always too thin. I can make them from thin solder, which is easy and it looks cool, but then they are soft and easy to bent out of shape. Thank you anyway.

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