HQuackenboss

In reply to Swede70's comments about the seat on the Tempest, I don't have a picture handy, but here is a picture of the 1972 Firebird showing the seat that was built by Herb Adams from steel tubing and sheet aluminum with simple padding made of foam that was covered with black vinyl upholstery material. The original Tempest seat was very similar.

DoctorLarry, your compliments on the car are very much appreciated. There is a part of the story that might be obvious to insiders, which hasn't been acknowledged. The car we built was really ideal for road racing, and would have been, I believe, competitive on short tracks, but the car itself was outclassed at Daytona. Even in that era, the cars that were fast at Daytona had fender wells that were way closer to the tire for less drag, and a number of details that made them slick, but still could get past the inspectors. Also, we figured out that even though we had designed the suspension for Daytona (it was different from the Riverside configuration), we had underestimated how bumpy the track was, so had to go way up in spring rates there. And finally, while the motors had good power, we ran into reliability problems during practice at Daytona. All things that we would have figured out and addressed if we had been able to assemble a bigger budget. As it was, we went to Daytona thinking we were going to show those guys something. NASCAR didn't make it easy. But even though we got treated like freshmen in the fraternity being hazed, we were still in over our heads, and I came away with a lot more respect for NASCAR racers' trial and error approach. There was a big difference between our approach, and what Roger Penske's team had been through a year ahead of us. Roger's team built (or bought) conventional NASCAR Cup chassis, and skinned them with AMC Matador sheet metal. It turns out one of the Pontiac guys had a huge impact on NASCAR several years later. Terry Satchell, who helped out on the Gray Ghost ended up working with Rusty Wallace at the time that NASCAR switched to radial tires, which led to a job with Penske. You can see an interview i did with Terry in the first hour of a video I helped with under the auspices of SAE. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWe33JKmAG4

I am embarrassed that I hadn't read this thread before, although I was aware of DrLarry's model because he sent me pics. But I am STUNNED with the detail of the chassis and engine compartment, down to the Doug Nash intake manifold. A few questions and opinions came up I wanted to address in the thread: Swede speculated on the bushings on the Tempest. The pivots on the rear control arms (2 uppers and 2 lowers) used spherical bearings, like a spherical rod end (AKA Heim joint), but just a mono-ball bearing that fits in a tubular sleeve welded into the control arms. It also used spherical bearings in the pivots on the lower front control arms, and used tubular sleeve bushings on the upper control arm pivots in the front, comprised of steep tubes, with Nyliner brand flanged nylon bushings. The Grand Am DID use a rear sway bar, On a circle track car, you can tune the understeer/oversteer balance for left turns only by "wedging" the car, adjusting a front or rear spring pad. If it understeers ("pushes"), you can screw down the right rear screw jack (or left front screw jack), or unscrew the left rear or right front screw jack. If it oversteers ("loose"), unscrew the right rear screw jack. The poster who said rear sway bars weren't used (except for our Grand Am) in that era in NASCAR, because they wouldn't work is partly right. They weren't generally used, because If the car only needs to turn one direction, you can adjust the balance slightly by changing to wedge, but that doesn't mean the rear sway bar can't be made to work and have the car still have great forward bite (AKA traction coming out of the corner). I personally installed a rear sway bar on one of H.B. Bailey's NASCAR "baby grand" Grand-Am class Firebird at Daytona in 1972. The Tempest first used a solid bar bolted to the lower control arms, just like the production 1965-1967 Chevelle and Tempests used. That was swapped out for a 2nd generation Camaro/Firebird-style sway bar after the first or second race. Any other questions, i will be happy to try to answer.

I am enjoying the discussion about the Firebirds, but you'all might think about starting a new thread rather than continue on in the thread about the Gray Ghost. Also, for anybody planning on being at the Monterey Reunion in two weeks. Herb Adams, and wife, Sandi (it was her car) will be at Laguna Seca for the vintage Trans-Am race to see John Hildebrand race the Gray Ghost on Saturday afternoon, Aug 14. I will be there all 4 days, but Herb and Sandi will only be there on Saturday. John finished 3rd of 33 in 2018, and in the top 5 in 2019 despite having broken the axle with the right gear ratio.

Richard, i you posted a picture of car #26, with a red and white color scheme. That is a 1968 Firebird. It has, as you notes, crude fairings around the number illumination lights. When I suggested doing a Google search, I meant to search for pictures of production 1969 Trans Am models, not Titus race cars. Sorry about not being clearer. The production 1969 Trans Am model had two vertically stacked fairings behind the front wheel well openings. Note also all 1969 Firebirds (even, i think, Canadian Firebirds) had recessed fake vents. For the Trans Am, fairings were added. As a historical footnote, the first prototypes of the Trans Am body add-ons were designed by a collaboration of Gene Winfield and designer Harry Bradly, and were fabricated by Winfield and installed and painted on a car by Winfield at GM in Michigan. As a hunch, I suspect that Winfield got connected to DeLorean as a byproduct of Winfield consulting for AMT (AMT and MPC/founded by AMT vice president, George Toteff were located less than 10 miles from the GM Tech Center), and was occasionally in Detroit. The Titus cars as raced in 1969 in the pictures you posted of the #18 and #13, and #27 don't have scoops. But they are not Firebird Trans Am models either. They are a Dr. Frankenstein creation combining 1968 and 1969 body parts with 1969 fenders, and a fake wider, likely fiberglass, 1968-style front bumper. As you guys probably know, all this chicanery about the Titus Firebirds in 1968 and 1969 is the rules in those years specified homologated 5 Liter motors, and Pontiac didn't have one, but they successfully sold the SCCA a fib about the Camaro Z28 motor being available in Canadian Firebirds. In 1970 the rules were changed to allow destroked production motors. At some point between the races of the pictures you posted, and the intro of the 2nd generation 1970 1/2 Firebird Trans Am, 1969 bodied Firebirds were raced with proper 1969 front bumpers, and fenders with the aforementioned side fairings. here is a picture of Craig Fisher racing one from, the source says, in the 1070 Trans-Am series.

The picture of the 26 car is a 1968, not a 1969. In 1968 Pontiac did not make a Trans Am model. The first Trans Am model was in 1969, and a google search will show pictures of the rearward facing pair of scoops. You can also probably find pictures of the Titus 1969 Trans-Am racers Note I am being precise. The SCCA racing series, the Trans-American Sedan Championship, or "Trans-Am" is always with a hyphen, but the car model that Pontiac sold does not have a hyphen.

@DrLarry and @yellowsportwagon, The NASCAR Grand Am used a rear sway bar, same configuration as the production 2nd generation Camaro/Firebird sway bar we used after the first race on the 1964 Tempest Gray Ghost in the Trans-Am series, and, naturally, on the 1972 Firebird Trans Am Trans-Am series car. At the Riverside debut, we were the outsiders with an outsider driver, Jerry Thompson,. Herb Adams was called to meet with the officials privately, who told him, that we would have a lot easier time if we hired one of the NASCAR regular drivers. In those days, tech inspection came to you according to whatever arbitrary order they wanted. They didn't even come to look at the car until after qualifying for the first 15 positions had been completed. We qualified 17th, 2nd fastest of the 2nd day qualifiers. We ran as high as 7th before we had a problem with the brakes.

DoctorLarry, Did you register for the camaros.org forum? I have no trouble accessing it.

Mike K, I was particularly thinking of Dr. Larry who wasn't familiar with the Firebird. I have a deep appreciation for how hard it is to tell that kind of a story, with a lot of technical engineering jargon which he felt was important to the tale, but was overwhelming when first finished. All the names of the team principals are i there, although how I was introduced wasn't the way it happened.

You guys might be interested in a fact-based novel, Blood Sweat and Gears - The story of the Gray Ghost and the Junkyard Firebird by David Barnes. David was general counsel for American Axle and Manufacturing, a spin-out from General Motors of their chassis components. Herb was doing engineering and development work, and was written up in the employee newsletter. David was intrigued, and ended up interviewing team members and writing the book. It is David's first work, and some of the stories are not exactly like they happened but the names and places are factual.

Yes, it was built for the 1972 SCCA Trans-Am Series, which used very similar rules to the 1971 Tempest. It raced under number 96 at the first race, where it was driven by Tony DeLorenzo. Herb Adams had originally wanted to drive for the season, and the rest of us supported that decision. Herb decided after the first couple of practice sessions that he wasn't going to be able to do as well as a seasoned driver, and Tony DeLorenzo was drafted for that race. Tony finished 3rd, after pitting because the shift linkage lost a retainer clip which meant no 4th gear. He continued on and finished 3rd. He told me a few years ago if he had just stayed out, and feathered it in 3rd gear, he might have won. Milt Minter drove the car the rest of the season and finished 2nd at the next race at Bryar, and it used the number Zero from then on. In the spring of 1973, it was entered in the Road Atlanta Trans-Am race, with a 366" NASCAR spec version of the motor, but with the same external appearance. We had a problem with the motor before qualifying and ran a 303 in the race. The rules had become a lot more liberal, and other cars including Corvettes, a European Ford Capri, Porsches, etc. It was a conventional Firebird leaf spring rear suspension, The rear axle tubes were cut welded to provide negative camber, but it was a stock full size rear axle. It used a very similar front sway bar like the Tempest, but 1/8" bigger at 1 3/8", same front spindles, same brakes.The rear sway bar design was just like a production Firebird. The frame, underbody, engine compartment and interior were painted flat black. The orange stripe was day-glo on chrome film. Eventually, the main part of hte roof was covered with chrome film. The engine configuration with dry sump was the same as the Tempest. The engines were painted gloss black. It used a Doug Nash intake manifold, A search will show you pictures. It had 180 degree headers, fabricated using pre-bent tubing elbows and welded with an oxy-acetylene torch by Herb Adams.. The exhaust exited each side kind of recessed part way into the rockers. With the angle they exited (as a guess, at a 30 degree angle from the rockers) they were cut flush with the body, and with half-oval cut outs in the rockers. One unusual feature that you probably want to try to duplicate was that it had a very large center tunnel that was hand fabricated, replacing the center part of the floor, from the firewall to the rear bulkhead. Unfortunately, nobody has found complete pictures. It was far more successful, but didn't get as much publicity as the Tempest. Here is a picture I found on the Web, with me in the dark blue jacket on the right side of the picture. Ask more questions

DoctorLarry, I started as a junior member in 1971 with the Tempest. I was never called a junior, or a rookie, but I started out as an information sponge. Through the season I took on increasing responsibility. In 1972 when the chassis lead left to get his MBA, I became a partner in the team and took over the chassis responsibility (suspension/brakes/tires). At the end of the season, i went to driver's school in the car. What would you like to know? Harry

A couple of comments on wheel colors on the Titus Firebird and the Tempest. I am going to guess that the restored Titus Firebirds were researched thoroughly when they were restored. My long ago impression was that the door numbers, and likely the wheel centers, were painted a blue intended to mimic the center blue stripe on the production car. (BTW - one tidbit. Herb Adams told me he designed the original center hood stripe, of which he is quite proud. Although known for his engineering prowess, as evidenced by the Vivant one-off custom he did when he was still in his 20s (the design was basically done as a scratch-built model in high school). Also note that teams needed an absolute bare minimum of 6 wheels for dry, because you would typically change two (on the same side of the car at a pit stop, and then you could get two new tires mounted before the next stop, if you were going to change them again, But if there was a puncture, 6 wouldn't be enough. Then you needed a minimum of 4 for rain tires. As a result, different finished wheels would be used, and even sometimes they didn't all match during a race. Next, if you are trying to duplicate the look of the original Minilites, don't go by what you see on the restored Trans-Am racers, the rims on a couple of brands look different up close. On the Tempest, a huge amount of effort went into recreating the exact silver exterior, and the interior color, which was also used on the frame, underhood area, and beginning with the Elkhart Lake event, the Minilite centers. While it was often described as Pontiac engine blue, that wasn't what was used originally. I asked Tom Nell, the engine builder, who passed away a couple of years ago, what he used on the engines. He bought a Pontiac Blue engine paint at the local auto parts store (Duplicolor was a popular brand then but he didn't recall). Having looked at the various Pontiac production engine paint colors, what he used doesn't, to my eye, match any of them. On the frame and interior, and on the wheels, the guy responsible for the body bought gallons of a blue epoxy from a surplus store, and used a brush, I think, for it all. To my eye, the color we ended up picking for the restoration is a teeny bit more tourquoise-ish than what we used originally, although because all of the color photos from 1971 have either changed because of the years, or been adjusted in the process of publishing them. Further, while the car was pretty original before restoration, on close inspection, various parts of the car originally covered with brush-applied blue epoxy, had been spray painted with what appeared to be different shades of blue, and what was left of the original blue could have aged.

DoctorLarry, The Petersen archive has some pictures of the Grand-Am at Daytona. One thing you can see is a simple, square ends aluminum front spoiler. Not very attractive, and is considerably shorter than the width of the car, but that was strictly specified by the Winston Cup rules. https://archive.petersen.org/pages/view.php?ref=516412&search=Daytona&order_by=relevance&offset=0&restypes=1%2C3&starsearch=&archive=0&per_page=48&default_sort_direction=DESC&sort=DESC&context=Modal&k=&curpos=

In my background post, I mentioned my family lived down the street from George Toteff's family. I admit I was kind of disappointed nobody commented on that, but i realize now you probably don't know who that is. George Toteff was a vice president at AMT when I first met him, and he then founded MPC. He arranged for me and a friend to get summer jobs loading and unloading trailers one summer in college. I did several jobs manual labor jobs during the summer, and one year, did a job every Saturday cleaning a neighbor's house. I picked corn and weeded melons in a field with a hoe. But at MPC, they were growing so fast, they rented semi-trailers that were too old to be used, parked them in a big lot, and used them as warehouse storage. Sitting in 80 degree sun they were quite hot, and we would load and unload them by hand, packing them onto palates. Car model kits weren't heavy, but they were as warm as an oven. The Toteffs moved away, and I never saw them again, but I read an article about how George took on the mission of saving Lionel trains. You can read about him on the Internet. Having met George Barris, who collaborated on some models and would occasionally visit George Toteff, I saw George Barris at a custom car show in the San Francisco area several years ago. He didn't recognize me, but remembered me, or pretended to. He told me that the Toteffs had moved to Northern Michigan, and had a fire that destroyed their home, but fortunately nobody was hurt. I read he passed away in 1981 at age 85. https://www.hemmings.com/newsletter?id=165