What Would You Do?

[FloridaBoy]

I am an old guy who has been around a while, and have a good reputation for fairness and telling the truth, and I don't mean to brag, but it does require time, effort, and sticking to your upbringing, no matter how tempting it is to do otherwise.

I have been building for a long time, and probably built or owned or scrounged through almost 80% of the kits ever issued at least once, and do not enter contests anymore except the primer and display tables. I have had my day in the sun, and have long time ago turned the hammer over to younger people.

A couple of years ago, my club developed a 10 point, 10 category judging sheet for each category, which I feel is invaluable. I modified it and use it personally when I am asked to judge. I take a copy to each show in case I am asked on site. At a show held awhile ago, I was asked to judge the junior category. There were about 20 entries, and one 57 Chevy Custom stood out, scoring a 90 on my scoresheet, a true rarity. Before the judging, I was told the boy's father built the car for him, and during the judging period, I called the boy aside and asked him. I sort of knew before during the putting down of his car when he knew absolutely nothing about the materials and techniques he used.(he didn't even know the color or if it was done by can or airbrush....hmmmm) But during the judging, his car was so far above the other juniors, and my conscience started stabbing me inside like a Bowie knife. During the judging, I casually asked the boy if he or his dad built the car, and after some questions, the boy admitted he did absolutely nothing, his dad did everything, and all they wanted were trophies, no matter how.. The father saw me questioning the boy and made a scene, accusing me of coercing a confession. We disqualified the boy, and gave the father a warning for future contests, to desist this activity. Junior categories are designed to reward hard work and diligence for the builder, not the "outside contractor" the boy delegates the model to. The father is irate, but still has the son, who by the way is under his spell (very weird) but now avoiding our contest.

Oh, yeah, we gave the boy a ribbon for entering his car, as we did other people. So we didn't expel him completely, but he knew it was cheating from our standpoint.

Would you have disqualified this boy's car?. What would you do under the circumstances?

I do not let anyone work on my cars under any circumstances, and one time was tempted to use a fully built, wired, and plumbed motor in one of my cars, and couldn't do it. It wouldn't have been mine. Sometimes I feel too "old school".

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

Edited November 5, 2008 by FloridaBoy

[JamesW]

yes, you did the right thing, the junior category is to commend the "junior" builder for their work, NOT someone elses, if he didn't build it, why should he get commended for it.

[Tom Jackson]

I would have done the same thing

[CAL]

I agree, and would had done the same. I don't know why some people think they need to cheat to win. I can honestly say I never felt compleled to cheat to win anything, and I have no tolerance for cheaters (okay, ole sparky may be a bit extreme). Moreover, not to call a cheater out is just giving them a license to cheat again and again. I also believe I would have pushed for a future ban of the cheater, paticularly after causing a scene, and would have been looking for a compelling reason for lifing the ban. I futher, don't tolerate or care to associate with people who turn a head to cheaters or let it go by the wayside.... OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

[Eshaver]

Ken I suggested just such a score card years ago to I P M S Richmond Virginia,,, well.....it went over like a LEAD BALLOON! See we used the same systen in the old Southern Van council to judge Show an Shine vans in the 1970's BUT THAT WOULD BE TOO SIMPLE.................... Listen Ken I P M S would be NOwher with out their secretive judging standards! Yours very truly KOMRAD ED formerly known as Ed shaver

[Clay]

Myself and my wife (who really does care much about this hobby) agree you did the right thing. The dad shouldnt have even touched the model.

[Harry P.]

There's absolutely no doubt you did the right thing.

I feel sorry for the kid... look what kind of lessons his old man is teaching him: that cheating to "win" is perfectly ok. The kid is in for a lot of disappointments in his life if he follows his dad's example. He's bound to get caught cheating sooner or later, maybe in an activity a lot more important than a model car contest... like college entrance exams, for instance.

That kid's dad ought to be ashamed of himself.

[B-dub]

Yeah should have been thrown out.. it's not fair to the other kids

[LoneWolf15]

I am an old guy who has been around a while, and have a good reputation for fairness and telling the truth, and I don't mean to brag, but it does require time, effort, and sticking to your upbringing, no matter how tempting it is to do otherwise.

I have been building for a long time, and probably built or owned or scrounged through almost 80% of the kits ever issued at least once, and do not enter contests anymore except the primer and display tables. I have had my day in the sun, and have long time ago turned the hammer over to younger people.

A couple of years ago, my club developed a 10 point, 10 category judging sheet for each category, which I feel is invaluable. I modified it and use it personally when I am asked to judge. I take a copy to each show in case I am asked on site. At a show held awhile ago, I was asked to judge the junior category. There were about 20 entries, and one 57 Chevy Custom stood out, scoring a 90 on my scoresheet, a true rarity. Before the judging, I was told the boy's father built the car for him, and during the judging period, I called the boy aside and asked him. I sort of knew before during the putting down of his car when he knew absolutely nothing about the materials and techniques he used.(he didn't even know the color or if it was done by can or airbrush....hmmmm) But during the judging, his car was so far above the other juniors, and my conscience started stabbing me inside like a Bowie knife. During the judging, I casually asked the boy if he or his dad built the car, and after some questions, the boy admitted he did absolutely nothing, his dad did everything, and all they wanted were trophies, no matter how.. The father saw me questioning the boy and made a scene, accusing me of coercing a confession. We disqualified the boy, and gave the father a warning for future contests, to desist this activity. Junior categories are designed to reward hard work and diligence for the builder, not the "outside contractor" the boy delegates the model to. The father is irate, but still has the son, who by the way is under his spell (very weird) but now avoiding our contest.

Oh, yeah, we gave the boy a ribbon for entering his car, as we did other people. So we didn't expel him completely, but he knew it was cheating from our standpoint.

Would you have disqualified this boy's car?. What would you do under the circumstances?

I do not let anyone work on my cars under any circumstances, and one time was tempted to use a fully built, wired, and plumbed motor in one of my cars, and couldn't do it. It wouldn't have been mine. Sometimes I feel too "old school".

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

Ken ,

You did the right thing. If nothing else , the youngster should have learned where cheating leads to . However, judging from the rest of your story , the avoidance of your contest by the nefarious pair speaks volumes otherwise ! I remember working shoulder to shoulder with my daughter on her models for hours at a time . She stayed with it for 6 years and I loved every minute of it . There is nothing more satisfying than watching your child build a model on their own ! When they win an award with it , it is even more priceless because they earned it solely on their abilities , no one elses! The aforementioned parent is robbing his child of the sense of fullfillment and joy of a job well done , not to mention the pride and feeling of self worth that comes with it ! It goes without saying how unfair it is to the other junior contestants when this situation occurs! As for "old school " no such thing , we need more of this not less. Right is right , wrong is wrong , the truth is always the truth ! Ya done good !

Donn Yost

[Mike]

I fully agree with your decision and you are 110% in the right for doing what you did. It sounds like the father has no concience and is trying to make up for lack of something else. If the child didn't do the work, the child doesn't deserve the award, no matter how heart-breaking. The other option would've been to move the build to the table with the adult builds since the dad made it.

[Scalefinishes]

YES!

You most certainly did the right thing. If they want trophies fine, but if they have to cheat to get them that's not Okay. I mean if the dad wants a trophy so bad he has to enter the junior category, and then has his son lying to cover for him, that is unforgivable.

I don't think the son should have even gotten the ribbon for entering "his" car. The model should have been handed back, and then the both of them sent packing.

At least that's my opinion.

Jameston

[Dave Wood]

Ken I agree with Harry Look at what that guy is teaching his kid, I feel bad for the boy but you did the right thing.

[Pete J.]

Ken - This is a tough one, not because of the diffuculty of the decision, which I concure with 150%, but with how to handle it. Smacking the father up side the head for what he did to his kid without causing problems for the kid. The guy is an absolute jerk. Needs to be sent to parenting school. Pete J>

[diymirage]

what is the cut of age for the juniors ?

not that it really mathers but in my opinion a dad (or mentor) can give some advice, tips or even help IF the person building it is yonug enough

having said this, "some help" should not consist more then 2 % of the actual work

my point it, it is OK for the dad the help the boy (which i think is where you are struggling) but there is no way we can consider this a case of the dad lending a hand.

you did the right thing and i believe you even showed grace to the kid by giving him a ribbon.

[bobss396]

I've seen junior modelers with some outstanding builds, but no one has ever volunteered that "dad" cranked it out for the kid. I know that some dads might paint a car from the quality of the finish. No way a 10 year old could do that and polish it out.

My kids always painted their own cars, the car and paint can were in their hands, I may have been close by giving pointers, but they did it themselves. And it looked it, but still a nice effort that they totally own.

So you did the right thing. Personally, I've judged junior classes and have bypassed a suspect car for one I KNOW the kid built. I've seen some sour pusses, but no one ever came up to me afterwards grumbling.

I'd like to see that 10-point list, can you cut 'n paste it into a reply?

Thanks, Bob

[FloridaBoy]

Thank you all for validating my determination, and for your support. Maybe I am not as "old school" as I thought.

There is a sad epilog to this story. The father went ballistic at our contest, and totally tried to harass me while I was giving a seminar on body work and making hinges for doors and trunks. He also tried to swindle the auction, by winning a 53 Ford Pickup donated by a member, and went outside and tossed the tires in the bushes, then tried to call fraud on the auction. The original owner swore he checked the box before bringing it, and we went outside and found the tires in the bushes, and of course when busted, he accused the original owner of fraud. That is when we gave him the tires, allowed him to collect his cars, and leave.

The even sadder part was the son's relief when the original incident was over, and when the father went to get lunch, the boy's stuttering was all of a sudden corrected, he laughed for the first time we saw, and the minute good old dad returned, the stuttering returned, and the son's demeanor took a whole different personality. Sort of like scared, or paranoid.

The father never learned, as he entered the son's car in a national contest held in a magazine and won the junior category. I advised the organizer but by publishing time, it was way too late.

I have always been in this hobby for fun, and as an expression of my creativity, which means I work on my cars when I want, and if I have something finished by contest time (way back then) I entered it, and if nothing was done, I didn't. I took more joy in showing my cars than winning trophies, but have been fortunate enough to have a few to kindle the memories.

Good fair tough competition is necessary for the advancement of our hobby, and I encourage every builder to enter contests not to win or get hardware or glory, but to stimulate the inner sense of competition which in turn becomes improvement, plus the exchange of ideas, techniques, approaches, products, supplies, tools, and unique ideas all lead to better built kits and more satisfaction and desire to improve.

One of the most rewarding experiences was about a year ago, we conducted a what turned out to be large contest at a MOPAR show, and these 4 teens showed up with their girls, and entered their cars. None won, but a friend and I asked them if they sat down with us for a little while we could give them some tips on improving their work product without criticism. We showed them how to achieve a smooth and shiny finish, body work, detail painting, engine detail, and workmanship using different glues.

They attended the next contest and we were there, and they entered showpieces. These kids were vacuums for guidance and support. I value that more than any trophy won in my model building career. I am no hero or prude, but selfishly, I went through one terrible model car hiatus by manufacturers in the late sixties early seventies and do not want to see it ever again. Heck, I do not want to see what happened to Johan happen to AMT, which would also take down other firms, too. We all get so much from this hobby, and feel we should "take care of business".

Now off my soapbox and off to lunch.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Scott H.]

I also agree that you did the right thing. It's not Old School, it REAL SCHOOL thinking! There should be more people like you in the judging circles and then maybe this hobby of ours would be more enjoyable for people of ALL ages!!!

The only thing I can honestly see an adult doing for the children is using the razor knives to cut the parts from the parts trees, removing the bracing in the openings of the older models and removing flash. Other than that, the child should be doing the building with an occasional hint or answer to a question if they wish to enter it in the contest. Once the child has enough skill and respect for the knives / sharp instruments to use them on their own (supervised of course) then even that should not be done.

I also believe that for the first few models it should be a collaborative effort between the adult and child to "show them the ropes" of building, BUT the model should not be entered into a contest as being built solely by the child. My thoughts on this is that it should be put on the display only table if the duo wish it to be seen by others and commented on. The card displayed with the model SHOULD show that it was built as a collaborative effort too.

********************************************************************************

Here's a story from my past that is somewhat similar to what has happened in your case:

Back when I was building models on a regular basis and the Model Club I belong to was in it's first year, my nephew started getting interested in building models too and I would let him help with some of my non contest or show bound personal projects once in a while. Even though I was planning on using a couple of bodies that I had on my work bench to display during an upcoming model meeting, I showed him the painting techniques I knew at the time on a couple pieces of cardboard and then let him paint them with a spray can as he was still not willing to try out my air brush for fear of breaking it. I fully well knew that the results would not be to my quality of standards and I would more than likely need to strip and repaint the bodies if I were to enter them in a show at a later date, but was willing to accept the consequences and future work ahead of me in doing so. Mind you that the interiors and running gear were already completed and detailed on each of these kits, including a fully plumbed and wired engine on one of them.

I took the kits to the meeting unfinished, and had a couple of members at that time make comments on the lack of a quality paint job. I told them what I had done and only one of the people that had commented to me on the paint had something else negative to say, the rest were appreciative of what I had done for my nephew. The only naysayer basically stated that I was an idiot for doing what I did. I quickly turned to him and asked: "Am I such an IDIOT in your eyes for bringing JOY to a child? What did it cost me? A few hours time at most??? I may have lost the time building the kit to YOUR standards, but I GAINED the knowledge that I have given a CHILD a moment of joy in his life!"

I finished the kits with his paint job and gave them to him. He doesn't build models anymore but the ones I gave him are in cases and displayed on his bookshelf for everyone to see. As far as the jerk that tried to berate me on what I did, he quit the club not too long after and I haven't seen him or his work since. Not a big loss in my book!

Please note that I'm not telling this story to thump my chest or trolling for praise as those that know me will be quick to tell you that I'm the first to give out praise when it's deserved but the last to accept it. It's just not my style. I'm merely showing that I practice what I preach on this subject since I am new to the board and not too many people know me and what I stand for on here yet.

-Scott H.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Scott H. AKA Cpt. Bondo

[Harold]

You did absolutely the right thing. You reminded me of the Frank Grimes episode on the Simpsons, where Homer built and entered a model of a nuclear plant for a kid's competiton. This youngster should find out at an early stage in life that cheating carries consequences. I'd hate to think that in his college years he'd earn a law degree or doctorate by contracting out his papers, thesis etc. What gets my goat is that dear old Dad threw a fit when the fraud (which is what it truly is) was found out. Maybe we'll see them on DFC- the Dysfunctional Family Channel

[torinobradley]

What kind of a man (loosely applied description) has to enter a model in a kids category to win??? Buck it up and enter your own friggin model in the right category... Win or loose, at least it's yours.

But then again, that brings to mind all these really nice 1:1 streetrods out there. Many owners don't build em. I would be interested to see just how many of the cars on the contest circut are actually owner built... Is that the same thing? The last few riddlers were bought cars, built by Foose or some other hot rod shop... What that means, is someone with enough money can just buy a contest winning car. Of course, this is a can of worms for some other time...

[Peter Lombardo]

I really don’t think there is much of an issue here. There were 19 other juniors who, it sounds like, followed the rules and built their entries themselves. It would not be fair to those entrants to have their work judged against an adults work. The greater good is served and if the father could not come to grips with the reality of that then too bad. Personally, I think the father needed to be pulled aside, away from the son, and explained to facts of “model building†life. If that is how it was handled, than you absolutely did the correct thing. You should not of lost any sleep over that situation…rules are rules. Our society is built on the rule of law. You, in my opinion, were correct in your decision to disqualify the entry.

[FloridaBoy]

Peter,

I am a father of two myself. I would not want to be publicly embarassed if it were me, so what I did is "take a break" and saw the dad and asked him to take a breather out front of the buiilding with me. I confronted him privately. He went ballistic and erupted and basically acted like a baby publicly. Inbetween the seminar and the auction, he was ranting and mumbling trying to create an incident, but by then word had gotten out, and his son was truly embarassed. Everyone was laughing at him and saying he got what he deserved. He probably aroused more ire because he had a noxious personality to boot. I was embarassed for the kid, but had zero compassion for the father by that time. Both the father and son's cars have since been featured in both scale magazines, so it appears the father never learned by being busted. He credits the kid with the work. His actions are still a topic of conversation, and neither he nor the son have been seen at any contest in Florida for the past 3 years.

torinobradley,

With regard to the Riddler awards, it seems to me to be a builders contest and not an owner's contest. Who owns each car is incidental, and both of them receive the award. Most of the time, cars are built for owners who foot the labor and material bill, and enjoy the show circuit and mag coverage afterwards.I learned that as one contender for the Oakland Roadster Show was built by Coddington and owned by a local construction company owner. It is somewhat unusual that homebody builders are pitted against professional builders, like Foose, Coddington, and others, but that is what I am interested in seeing. Not who owned it but who designed and built it.

Overview and Lamentation

I think schools are partially to blame. I had a running feud with my kid's elementary school, and yes I will name it, Hammock Pointe, in Boca Raton, Fl whose teachers assigned projects of basic near impossibilities at exactly the wrong times. I worked for the home office of the School District, and even took some of the assignments, which were way beyond reasonable expectation of any child grade 1 thru 5, especially scenicked dioramas, working solar systems from scratch, composing new lyrics around a theme for existing songs, or building a mechanical working robot from scratch. Boca being a rich town (I am not) it was quite obvious that parents either did the work, as I did, or farmed it out, and where does that leave the child? But even worse, it teaches children not to do things for themselves but to have it done, if a grade determines it. You should have seen the results, and I came forth, as I made my children take a very active part in the project, but most parents and children actually fabricated who actually did the project. I took an active part in all projects because I did not want my children to face the music even if they were overwhelmed.

For me, as I tried to teach the children, the fun is in the working with the hands and tools and fun working as a family unit. Except one time a spinster and frustrated teacher assigned a major project on the Thursday before Super Bowl Sunday and the project was due Monday. She got a snoutful (an ugly snout at that...lol) from me at the next teacher/parent meeting. Unfortunately because of the tenure program in West Palm Beach County, she is still teaching, despite my several complaints to the Ethics and Practices Division in the School System.

I know I wasn't alone because the principal told me she got no Christmas presents that year from the children.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

Edited November 6, 2008 by FloridaBoy

[Edward]

You did the right thing! I would have done the same as you did. It would not have been far to the kids that did their own work.

[Robert]

I am an old guy who has been around a while, and have a good reputation for fairness and telling the truth, and I don't mean to brag, but it does require time, effort, and sticking to your upbringing, no matter how tempting it is to do otherwise.

I have been building for a long time, and probably built or owned or scrounged through almost 80% of the kits ever issued at least once, and do not enter contests anymore except the primer and display tables. I have had my day in the sun, and have long time ago turned the hammer over to younger people.

A couple of years ago, my club developed a 10 point, 10 category judging sheet for each category, which I feel is invaluable. I modified it and use it personally when I am asked to judge. I take a copy to each show in case I am asked on site. At a show held awhile ago, I was asked to judge the junior category. There were about 20 entries, and one 57 Chevy Custom stood out, scoring a 90 on my scoresheet, a true rarity. Before the judging, I was told the boy's father built the car for him, and during the judging period, I called the boy aside and asked him. I sort of knew before during the putting down of his car when he knew absolutely nothing about the materials and techniques he used.(he didn't even know the color or if it was done by can or airbrush....hmmmm) But during the judging, his car was so far above the other juniors, and my conscience started stabbing me inside like a Bowie knife. During the judging, I casually asked the boy if he or his dad built the car, and after some questions, the boy admitted he did absolutely nothing, his dad did everything, and all they wanted were trophies, no matter how.. The father saw me questioning the boy and made a scene, accusing me of coercing a confession. We disqualified the boy, and gave the father a warning for future contests, to desist this activity. Junior categories are designed to reward hard work and diligence for the builder, not the "outside contractor" the boy delegates the model to. The father is irate, but still has the son, who by the way is under his spell (very weird) but now avoiding our contest.

Oh, yeah, we gave the boy a ribbon for entering his car, as we did other people. So we didn't expel him completely, but he knew it was cheating from our standpoint.

Would you have disqualified this boy's car?. What would you do under the circumstances?

I do not let anyone work on my cars under any circumstances, and one time was tempted to use a fully built, wired, and plumbed motor in one of my cars, and couldn't do it. It wouldn't have been mine. Sometimes I feel too "old school".

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

Rules are rules. This young man needed to learn this valuable lesson. Too bad he hadn't learned it from his Father.

[diymirage]

i think from all that came out of this we can say that

A) you did the right thing

there have got to be a ton more of these feel good stories like Scot H shared

maybe we should focus on point B

[Terry Sumner]

Same thing happens in the Pinewood Derby car competitions in the Cub Scouts. Unbelievable!!! One can easily tell when a car was made by a parent. It got so bad we finally made a race category just for the adults. That alleviated most of the problems.

Terry (former Cubmaster and Scoutmaster)