Three Stooges going back to D.C.

[Pokey]

I have an adgenda? What might that be? I have never publicly stated my opinion on whether the loans should pass or fail! In fact I only last week made up my mind about it and still havent told anyone. I do however get sick and tired of reading in the paper, hearing on the radio, seeing on telivision, or reading in these posts information about me that is totally false! I do not earn 150 grand a year!I am a skilled tradesman and am at the top of the union pay scale. I earn 33 dollars an hour. Do the math........how many hours would I have to work to make 150 grand! I read in another post here that we get paid 60 bucks an hour to sweep floors. Well if your sweeping floors at ford you are making somewhere between 14 and 28 dollars an hour and doing one hell of a lot more than just sweeping floors!! Forgive me if I come off a bit short, but I am fed up with hearing "I talked to a guy whose cousin knows someone at a bar that told him he gets 80 bucks an hour to play solitare at ford!"

Part of the problem is the UAW, they let these rumors and stories run wild without ever disputing them.

Let me ask you this.........if every GM union worker worked for free how much of a difference would it make in the 38 billon in losses? The wages are not the problem. The workers were making just as much (actually a bit more) when the big 3 were making all those record profits a few years back. Even so the UAW has agreed to take wage consessions. They just ask that they arent the only ones shouldering the burden.

One other random thought that burns me.........if there is a huge wage gap between the Detroit brands and the Japanese, wht do you complain the big three pay to much and not that the Japs pay to little?

The UAW doesn't dispute these "rumors" because most of them are based on truth.

I live in a town called Anderson, Indiana. GM pretty much built this town, there used to be huge GM plants wherever you would go in Anderson, and Delco and Guide had their headquarters here. My grandfather, most of my aunts and uncles, and most of my wife's family, including myself, worked at the plants here in Anderson.

I used to be a member of the UAW, and am now a member of the USW. I can tell you from personal experience that the rumors you speak of are indeed TRUE! For example, at Guide, we made about $60 an hour after you factor in benefits, and most of the people there did much less than sweeping floors.

My brother, for example, had a 27 inch TV and a Playstation in a cabinet at his work station. He and a couple of his friends that he worked with would sit there playing video games for most of the shift. When they weren't doing that, they would join the rest of the "workers" on his shift at the bar across the street from the plant. That's right, there was a bar right across the street from the plant, and it was common knowledge that people would start their day by clocking in, making an appearance in their department, and then sneaking out and going across the street to the bar, and spending most of their shift at the bar getting drunk, and getting paid to do so.

Things were the same at the Delco and other various GM plants in Anderson. There used to be a saying in Anderson, that "you could tell when driving by one of the plants if it was work time, or break time. If everyone was standing outside doing nothing, that means break time is over". According to my grandfather, father-in-law, and a couple of my uncles, people were just as lazy at the Delco plants as they were at Guide.

Why would management allow this type of behavior? Everytime they would try to write someone up or fire someone for not doing their job, the UAW would go into arbitration mode and get people their jobs back, no matter what. So, the management at these plants finally just gave up trying to do anything about it. GM had tens of thousands of employees here in Anderson, there is now only ONE employee here, and he oversees all the empty plants. GM left. Surprise surprise.

It was common knowledge how lazy the UAW workers were here in Anderson, most of them were quite proud of how little work they did, like they were "sticking it to the man". In the end, they were only sticking it to themselves.

I can say from experience that the leadership of the UAW is ignorant, arrogant, and inept. This latest display of their unwillingness to play ball for the greater good is just one more example of the UAW leadership's arrogance.

The UAW once organized a strike at a couple of the plants here because they wanted more vending machines!

Sure, the huge wages alone aren't what are killing the big 3, but, when you've got all these people making way too much money, and not being the least bit productive, then that causes a problem.

I'm not saying it's like this at all UAW plants, Anderson might have been an extreme case. I'm sure things are different for you where you work Raisin, and I admire your loyalty to your union brethren. I just think you should know that those "rumors" didn't just materialize, they are based in reality.

As for the Japanese not paying enough. The Toyota and Honda plants around here make about $20 and hour on average, and that's before you factor in benefits. I'd say that's a darn good wage for production work.

I've always said that the UAW and the Big 3 share the blame for their downfall. After seeing this latest display, and listening to what Mr. "Middlefinger" had to say, it is now a little more obvious to me who should shoulder most of the blame. The leadership of the UAW have shot themselves in the foot, and I feel bad for the people they represent.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Pokey

[Modelmartin]

I don't have a "want" to believe any particular thing. I just stated that those were the numbers I heard. $1000. to 1500. on a car ranging from $15 to 30+ grand isn't that big a factor to my mind as a consumer looking at buying a car. If they made the cars better all around( and not just JD power quality stats) I might consider them. I don't completely buy the labor cost argument.

Something else to keep in mind is that of course everyone is caterwauling about the sky falling if they don't get the bailout. Bull! It's just a bunch of histrionics to get the money. The pro-bailout folks present the most dire possible situation to advance their cause. Remember killer bees and Y2K?

This is a tough economic time for everyone but Detroit has the double whammy to deal with the economy and inferior product!

I think we would be better off handing GM and Chrysler over to Honda and Toyota. They know how to make great vehicles. Honda already has a hydrogen car in production. ( Ya, I know, they are selling them at a loss right now. The point is they are doing it now and laying the groundwork for the future.)

Once years ago I was in a Toyota dealer helping a friend look for a car. They had a sign in the showroom crowing about about how the average Toyota only had 1.5 warranty claims per car while some competitor had 1.8. Real world means you had either 1 or 2 warranty claims. I never had a .5 or a .8 claim!!!! To quote Mark Twain,"Lies, darn lies, and statistics!" Detroit defenders cite their improved quality stats but I scoff.

As far as fleeing the craziness I say stop the planet and let me off!!

Andy

P.S. The swear word filter is a little too sensitive -I couldn't quote Mark Twain accurately!

[Harry P.]

"Lies, darn lies, and statistics!" ...

P.S. The swear word filter is a little too sensitive -I couldn't quote Mark Twain accurately!

Don't worry... we know the quote!

[Pokey]

I don't have a "want" to believe any particular thing. I just stated that those were the numbers I heard. $1000. to 1500. on a car ranging from $15 to 30+ grand isn't that big a factor to my mind as a consumer looking at buying a car. If they made the cars better all around( and not just JD power quality stats) I might consider them. I don't completely buy the labor cost argument.

Something else to keep in mind is that of course everyone is caterwauling about the sky falling if they don't get the bailout. Bull! It's just a bunch of histrionics to get the money. The pro-bailout folks present the most dire possible situation to advance their cause. Remember killer bees and Y2K?

This is a tough economic time for everyone but Detroit has the double whammy to deal with the economy and inferior product!

I think we would be better off handing GM and Chrysler over to Honda and Toyota. They know how to make great vehicles. Honda already has a hydrogen car in production. ( Ya, I know, they are selling them at a loss right now. The point is they are doing it now and laying the groundwork for the future.)

Once years ago I was in a Toyota dealer helping a friend look for a car. They had a sign in the showroom crowing about about how the average Toyota only had 1.5 warranty claims per car while some competitor had 1.8. Real world means you had either 1 or 2 warranty claims. I never had a .5 or a .8 claim!!!! To quote Mark Twain,"Lies, darn lies, and statistics!" Detroit defenders cite their improved quality stats but I scoff.

As far as fleeing the craziness I say stop the planet and let me off!!

Andy

P.S. The swear word filter is a little too sensitive -I couldn't quote Mark Twain accurately!

Sorry, but I don't buy the whole "Toyota makes a superior product" garbage. Honda? Yes. But Toyota? Hardly.

I have owned several cars from various manufacturers, and they all are about equal. All of the GM cars I have owned have been great cars, and pretty much problem free. Toyota is slipping as far as quality is concerned, and they have admitted to that. not to mention that Toyota seems to have forgotten how to make interesting cars.

I will admit that Chrysler doesn't really have anything to brag about right now aside from the Ram, but GM and Ford have definetly made some big improvements over the past few years, and they make cars that surpass their Asian counterparts in a few segments, such as the Lincoln MKS, Cadillac CTS, Chevy Malibu, Buick Enclave, etc.. Anyone who denies that these are great cars is either delusional, uninformed, or in denial.

I really don't have a problem with Japanese cars, but I will never buy another one. Why? Because the last one I owned nearly broke my grandfather's heart. he said to me, "I fought for this country, and some of my friends gave their lives in WWII, to keep the Japs off of our shores, and now all these Americans are letting them invade anyway, by choosing to buy their cars and gadgets over American products." Talk about a guilt trip. I never bought another Japanese car again after he said that. His view of it may seem a little over the top, but I hold this man in very high regard, and have an immense amount of respect for the man, so I will probably never buy another Japanese car, even after he is gone. Of course, if things begin to decline, I may not have a choice but to buy an Asian car.

I have no problem with people who prefer to buy Japanese cars. I do however have a problem with people who insist that ALL American cars are "inferior", because that is no longer the case.

Also, if American cars are so bad, why would millions of people continue to buy them? Brand loyalty can only go so far. As i said, I have never had any major issues with any of the American cars I have owned, and I tend to put ALOT of miles on my cars in a short time. My current car, a Pontiac Bonneville, has over 250,000 trouble-free miles on it.

As I stated in an earlier post, I live in Anderson, which is a huge GM town, even years after GM left us behind. The majority of the people here drive GM, including most of my family and friends, and I don't know of anyone who has had any major issues with any of their vehicles, aside from an infamous Vega my uncle had in the '70s. Maybe GM sends all the good cars to Indiana?

Edited December 13, 2008 by Pokey

[Modelmartin]

Why? Because the last one I owned nearly broke my grandfather's heart. he said to me, "I fought for this country, and some of my friends gave their lives in WWII, to keep the Japs off of our shores, and now all these Americans are letting them invade anyway, by choosing to buy their cars and gadgets over American products." Talk about a guilt trip. I never bought another Japanese car again after he said that. His view of it may seem a little over the top, but I hold this man in very high regard, and have an immense amount of respect for the man, so I will probably never buy another Japanese car, even after he is gone. Of course, if things begin to decline, I may not have a choice but to buy an Asian car.

My father in law was wounded on Iwo Jima and he has really liked his Honda Accord and Subaru wagon. He is thinking of getting another Subaru at age 86! My 81 year old mother loves her Scion XB.

Superior is in the eye of the beholder. American cars may last as long as Japanese cars but I still don't like most of the American product line. Part of the problem is that they did in fact produce a lot of garbage over the years and earned a bad rep. The Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan look to be pretty nice cars. The Mustang is pretty nice as is the Corvette of course. Ford and GM do a good job on pickups and such. I don't like all Japanese cars either. I rented a Prius last year on a trip and found it to be really weird - I didn't like it. I love Audis and VWs but I can't afford either the cars or the repairs. I have a good friend who loves his Porsche 911s, his Accord he drives daily, and his Chev Suburban. Some people are diverse! Another friend loves his Geo Metro convert and his Chev SSR.

Andy Martin

[Harry P.]

I agree that the quality of American cars isn't the problem. Dollar for dollar, American cars today are as good as, or better, than any others. But the bad reputation that American cars got in the 70s and 80s, (and deservedly so) lingers on. Many people were permanently turned off to American cars then, bought Asian or European, liked what they had and never looked back. Their image of American car quality is frozen in a time warp, to the last time the may have owned American. But in the meantime the American cars have caught up... Detroit wasn't standing still!

No, quality isn't the cause of the problems the automakers are having. There are a lot of contributing factors, but I don't think poor quality is one of them,

Now, perceived poor quality based on old memories... that's a different story. Too many people still remember the exploding Pintos, the rusty Vegas and the infamous Cadillac V8-6-4.

[old-hermit]

Too many people still remember the exploding Pintos

Whoa now Harry, all the Pinto's didn't explode. Here's my daily driver.

257,000 miles, never had the heads off and doesn't use oil.

[RadRidesByDan]

Whoa now Harry, all the Pinto's didn't explode. Here's my daily driver.

257,000 miles, never had the heads off and doesn't use oil.

Must be one of the few manufacture defects

Im just kidding.....its rare to see one around for that long especially if it has never been cracked open.

Nice ride..... should be worth a fortune

Bear

[Art Anderson]

I agree that the quality of American cars isn't the problem. Dollar for dollar, American cars today are as good as, or better, than any others. But the bad reputation that American cars got in the 70s and 80s, (and deservedly so) lingers on. Many people were permanently turned off to American cars then, bought Asian or European, liked what they had and never looked back. Their image of American car quality is frozen in a time warp, to the last time the may have owned American. But in the meantime the American cars have caught up... Detroit wasn't standing still!

No, quality isn't the cause of the problems the automakers are having. There are a lot of contributing factors, but I don't think poor quality is one of them,

Now, perceived poor quality based on old memories... that's a different story. Too many people still remember the exploding Pintos, the rusty Vegas and the infamous Cadillac V8-6-4.

Tonight on the History Channel has been most interesting indeed! "Crash! The Next Great Depression?" does a pretty good looking back at not just what has happened in the last year, economically, but goes all the way back to the Great Depression of 1929-34 (with its effects not completely erased until the war production effort fully ramped up in 1943), the causes, the events, the people (both the man-in-the-street and the men in the White House, and in Congress). It then takes a pretty candid look at the tremendous wave of deregulation which began in the Carter years, picked up steam in Reagan's time as President, even though the Clinton years, into our current presidency. They also, through interviews with several economists, look at the measures being undertaken as I write this, and how those measures stem from the lessons of the hardest years of our country, 1929-34. Well worth catching, you can bet that History Channel will be repeating this one over the next few weeks. Incidently, it's not at all prejudiced toward either side of the aisle, nor does it take an real stand as to what needs to happen--but rather they let their experts' interviews make the suggestions, and they are actually few, and none really controversial nor dramatic.

Now, in the overall scheme of things, and to return this thread to its roots, it does appear, more and more, that our American based auto industry is too big, too important, too far-reaching to just allow to melt down. I think some of those senators who spoke out about just letting events take their course are being extremely short-sighted--the inevitable fallout of the destruction of Detroit based automakers WILL affect people in every state in the Union, and just as is feared and predicted by the American arms of companies such as Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, etc., such a massive industrial failure by their US counterparts will have far reaching and detrimental effects on them as well.

Somehow in all this, current GM, Ford and Chrysler management, even workers, are being blamed for many problems from the past--proof positive that bad or ill-conceived product of the magnitude of a car costing as much as a year's pay or more (no matter what era we want to talk about) can last far longer than the cars themselves. Shakespeare, in writing the script for "Julius Caesar" penned this as the opening of Mark Antony's eulogy of the murdered emperor: "The evil that men do lives long after them, the good is oft interred with their bones." We are looking at, talking about, and in a lot of instances here, the very same thing: "Ill conceived, poorly designed cars have a reputation that lives long after them, the good stuff that comes afterward gets painted with the very same, broad paintbrush".

The November 8 issue of Fortune Magazine has a rather chilling look back at GM, in the eyes of their long-time automotive writer, who also has written for several auto industry trade magazines. It's interesting to read him, as he talks about his impressions of the long-unlamented Roger Smith (remember him?), and makes the case that Smith did try very hard to restructure GM inside, as well as on the outside, and the near civil war that he faced among middle and upper management in doing so. Smith of course, was the first GM CEO to come from other than the manufacturing side, he having been a financial guy all his career. But, he could not stem the tide he saw coming onshore, that GM simply could not go on as if it were the 1950's. He also gives some pretty high marks to Robert Stempel, who replaced Smith, but has little good to say about the current CEO. But more than that, he does point out that GM, in the US, has lost more than $75 BILLION just since 2000, and simply cannot go on without either an infusion of ready cash, AND an unprecedented restructuring of the entire company, it's management structure (something like 29 different offices doing purchasing, for example), product line (too many makes, too many models, trying to be all things to all buyers), and its labor structure as well. Well worth the read, and it's not at all a long dry dissertation.

As for any sort of real government control over what our domestic auto industry produces, or won't be allowed to produce, I can only offer up Renault as a sample: Renault, up until the German invasion of 1940, produced some very well built, well designed cars, albeit for a much smaller market, France and her colonial possessions. In 1945, however, based on alleged collaboration of Renault's owners with their German ocuppiers, the newly formed 4th Republic confiscated Renault, making them the largest state-owned automobile company in the World up to that time. And, throughout all those years of government ownership, we really didn't see very many even decent cars from them (nor did the French either!). Much the same is true of FIAT, also government owned--the only thing that Italian bureaucrats haven't screwed up is Ferrari, but then the Prancing Horse is practically as holy in Italy as is the Vatican.

In the UK, the labor situation there, from the end of WW-II until only a decade or so ago, drove every domestic British automaker of any size either under, or out of the country (think about that: Who runs the likes of Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar today? Where went Austin, Triumph, Wolseley, MG and the dozen or so other makes we used to hear of?) or into foreign ownership.

Do I think the US auto industry is going to just evaporate, go away? Nope, not at all. However, it's going to take some serious thinking on all sides, by all parties involved, some real soul-searching, not only in the high rise headquarters in Detroit, but also in the halls of the US Capital, and in the White House. There is going to be some serious head-knocking, and some extremely bruised feelings before this all settles out, however, whenever, and wherever. And then, some extremely hard work by all 300+ million of us here in the US, to get the entire ship back on an even keel.

Art

[Art Anderson]

Whoa now Harry, all the Pinto's didn't explode. Here's my daily driver.

257,000 miles, never had the heads off and doesn't use oil.

As a thought here: In any other time, the relatively few fires caused by burst fuel tanks in Pinto's would not have raised such an issue, had there not been the rise of the trial lawyer in the 60's and 70's. Gasoline tank fires in severe rear end impacts have been a fact of life ever since automakers starting putting the tank back behind the rear axle. Perhaps the safest of all locations for a gasoline tank ever done was in the Model A Ford: The tank was put in the cowling, behind the firewall (even formed the cowling of every '28-'29 Model A, except for the 4-dr sedans), and there was never an instance of one of those tanks exploding, or causing fires until very late in the lives of those cars, 20-30 yrs afterward, when metal fatigue around the upper steering column mount formed, causing seepage of fuel into the interior of the car (speaking as one who owned several Model A's in the 1960's). But, the perceived danger of that tank, even with it's continuous electrical welded seams (in a time when most every other gas tank was put together by merely rolling the edges of two halves, much like the top of a can of green beans from the supermarket), spurred by state motor vehicle departments, and by "crusading" state legislators, forced Ford to rethink things, so they put the gas tank of the Deuce where? Between the rear bumper and the rear axle, just like everyone else.

Same too, with the mounting of Chevy/GMC full size pickup tanks outside the frame rails. If one thinks about it, NBC News "demonstration" required an external source of ignition to get a fire started after a side impact. Further, if that is such a dangerous place for a fuel tank, on the outside of a truck frame, how is it that nobody cared a whit about the hundreds of thousands of medium and heavy duty trucks out there, all with at least one fuel tank, right where it will burst in a heavy side impact? Hmmmm!

Art

[Peter Lombardo]

Gentleman, we can talk about this situation until we are all blue in the face. The root causes of our economic meltdown have been peculating under the surface of our economy for at least 35 years now. We did not get here overnight and we will not get out of this quickly either.

There is so much blame here that we can point fingers in every direction. Governments deregulation of banking and industry played a major role in allowing the ball to get rolling. The heavy dependence on foreign energy sources set us up for economic blackmail, as experienced in the 1970’s and speculation drove the cost of a gallon of gas to over $4.00 this summer. Our local jurisdictions making sweetheart deals for the foreign manufacturers to set up shop here in America so they can undercut our home grown businesses. The invasion of foreign made products (mainly auto’s) into our marketplace that were cheaper and perceived as better. In the 1970’s our slow but steady move away from a manufacturing economy to a “credit†or financial economy that stripped away our industry “core†profit and sent that overseas (electronic, auto and now just about everything). Think about it, the only products today that in inherently American and still “manufactured†here is the Cheeseburger and the credit card. We have allowed our workers salaries (union driven) to escalate to the point where we are not competitive.

OK, STOP GRINDING YOUR TEETH AT ME FOR THAT COMMENT!!! I don’t have an issue with American workers earning a decent wage, in fact I wish they could earn more…I wish I could earn more, but lets get real here, if we keep increasing the wages, the product costs more, and we will spiral into out of control inflation.

I, and many of the business people I know have all been saying this for years now….â€We are out of controlâ€â€¦Athletes and entertainers earn way too much for what they do (just look at the NASCAR situation on that other thread). The cost of everything is getting crazy…a serious adjustment was inevitable, it was just a matter of time. With every month the gap between the “haves†and the “have not’s†has been widening. We are destroying the middleclass. My wife and I purchased our current house in 1982. Sure, we have improved it with an addition 17 years ago, but we paid $89,000.00 back then and just prior to the meltdown, it was valued at just under $600,000.00. Don’t get me wrong, I liked having the increased value, even though it was just on paper, but that is crazy. How do young coupes buy a house at these insane prices?????….enter the ARM or Adjustable Rate Mortgage, and there are young couples and minorities in the inner cities, buying property that they truly could not afford (at the crazy inflated prices) and due to deregulation and a conscience change of policy by government to encourage these purchases, we now have huge numbers of defaults. The economy has been climbing higher and higher and as the stock market reached 14,000 many of my friends and business acquaintances were saying, hold on to your hat, the drop in coming…yes it is and it is here.

I also watched the show last night on the History Channel about the parallels in the “Great Depression†of the 20’s and 30’s…very enlightening show, and yes, it was not a politically motivated look at the two situations. I want to believe that this time it will be different and the drop will not be as far and as long lasting, but I have my doubts that we can pull ourselves out of it. It took WWll to save us last time, I don’t think another world war will help us now. As I have stated many times before, I honestly believe America is “on the back nineâ€. That, if you don’t know is a reference to the point that I think we, as the former leading nation on earth, we are now in decline and will be surpassed by other nations that are on the rise.

I am in the middle of a great book, which I recommend to all of you. It is entitled, “The Post-American World†and was written by Fareed Zakaria. DON’T LET HIS NAME THROW YOU. Fareed is an American, born in India; he is the Editor of Newsweek International and writes a column on international affairs. This man is very well versed in the international politics and business of the world today. He has no anti-American agenda. He calls it as he sees it and backs up every statement with facts…facts that point to the clear and unmistakable rise of Asia and South America and the slide of America as the pinnacle of world economics. I will not bore you with the details, suffice to say, this meltdown was predicable and expected by those in the know. I just finished a book entitled “Bad Money†by Kevin Phillips, a political and economic commentator and former White House strategist. This book was written in 2007 and he predicted everything (exactly) that we experienced this late summer. He saw it coming as did many others.

Last weekend, my wife, daughter and son in law were in New York City to visit the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and then dinner in Little Italy. Everywhere we went in the city, in the museum, on the streets, in Little Italy, I was astounded by the huge number of foreigners. They were everywhere. Now, we are no strangers to NYC, living 30 minutes west of it, but this was unbelievable. In October, we were in Naples Florida for a week. Same was true there. We have a condo there, so we know the area, have been going there for many years now, and I have never seen so many foreign visitors as we saw this time…coincidence? Certainly not. America is now a destination for foreigners with stronger currency then the U.S. dollar. Our currency is under attack and if many in the world have their wish, the dollar will not be the standard of trade any more. The facts all point to the uncomfortable reality that America is in decline and other nations are on the rise and we have brought much of this on ourselves, which is why the central theme to most of my rants about the economy and business focus on a complete lack of leadership by our elected leaders and the American peoples who insist in keeping their collective heads in the sand. Our media lies to us every day, our “elected for life†Congress is in it for personal gain and the ones with the power to change it are too stupid to see it. We have been lulled into a state of complacency and apathy. Guys, we all need to begin paying attention to this problem…but in all honesty, it may be too late already.

[Harry P.]

Whoa now Harry, all the Pinto's didn't explode. Here's my daily driver.

257,000 miles, never had the heads off and doesn't use oil.

That's a later model, wasn't it the first ones that had the amazing exploding option??? Because of all the bad publicity, Ford reworked the filler tube or something on the later ones (like yours) to fix the problem... if my memory is correct.

[Harold]

And so here we are- the prez has gone and okayed the bailout package (one of his few rational acts) because, hey, who wants to be the guy that sunk a major sector of the economy. What a lot of the pundits and politicos can't seem to grasp is this: if we lose the auto industry, who's going to make our munitions and equipment if we again have a WWII style call to arms? America's industrial might, led by the auto industry, was one of the determining factors in fighting that war in both theaters. Would you want to depend on Mexico, Malaysia, Taiwan, China or India to produce our arms for us? Also, if we lose the auto industry, what are we going to replace these jobs with? More 'service economy' nonsense where you wear a paper hat and hand out ketchup packets?

[Harold]

That's a later model, wasn't it the first ones that had the amazing exploding option??? Because of all the bad publicity, Ford reworked the filler tube or something on the later ones (like yours) to fix the problem... if my memory is correct.

Actually, the wagons weren't prone to exploding, as the rear overhang of the car was 10" longer than the sedan or hatchback, giving more crush space between the bumper and the tank.

[Harry P.]

The facts all point to the uncomfortable reality that America is in decline and other nations are on the rise and we have brought much of this on ourselves, which is why the central theme to most of my rants about the economy and business focus on a complete lack of leadership by our elected leaders and the American peoples who insist in keeping their collective heads in the sand. Our media lies to us every day, our “elected for life” Congress is in it for personal gain and the ones with the power to change it are too stupid to see it. We have been lulled into a state of complacency and apathy. Guys, we all need to begin paying attention to this problem…but in all honesty, it may be too late already.

Yessir, that about sums it up. Our political system is SO corrupt and SO focused on the "what's in it for me" aspect that America has been left to slowly rot. The financial meltdown, the automaker crisis... these are but two symptoms of a country in serious decline, socially, politically and ethically.

That's not "ant-American" rhetoric... that's just the facts as I (and Peter and others) see them.

Can we pull out of this mess? Man, I sure hope so, because I live here! But not if our current system continues on doing its "business as usual".

[Harry P.]

if we lose the auto industry, who's going to make our munitions and equipment if we again have a WWII style call to arms? America's industrial might, led by the auto industry, was one of the determining factors in fighting that war in both theaters. Would you want to depend on Mexico, Malaysia, Taiwan, China or India to produce our arms for us? Also, if we lose the auto industry, what are we going to replace these jobs with? More 'service economy' nonsense where you wear a paper hat and hand out ketchup packets?

Who's making all the arms now? Don't we have plenty of other manufacturers cranking out tanks, planes, helicopters, etc. right now?

And if the US auto industry as it currently exists (the Big Three) were to disappear (highly unlikely, bailout or not), you can bet that new, leaner, more efficient car companies would spring up almost immediately. All the car guys currently running (or ruining, as the case may be) the Big Three right now wouldn't all just ride off into the sunset... they'd be gathering investors and starting up new companies. I think we could possibly see a rebirth of a vital, competitive American auto industry that would be impossible to accomplish with the companies (and business models of those companies) that we now have.

[RadRidesByDan]

Thats why the government should of let the 3 sink to the bottom, let them declare bankruptsy and then offer the bail out to the new management to bring the 3 back up, this bailout loan is nothing short but to fill the wrong pockets again. The next year is going to be be what? another $14,000,000,000 or more cause the smae management still couldnt get their heads out of their full moons.

I DONT AGREE WITH THIS BAIL OUT LOAN. IT SHOULD OF BEEN GIVEN OUT AFTER THEY WENT UNDER....ALL NEW MANAGEMENT AND NO UAW. BETTER PAY AND BETTER PLANS TO THE ACTUAL WORKERS, BUT NO UNIONS AND NO GREEDY EXECUTIVES WHO CARE ABOUT NOTHING BUT TO LINE THIER POCKETS.

[James Flowers]

As a thought here: In any other time, the relatively few fires caused by burst fuel tanks in Pinto's would not have raised such an issue, had there not been the rise of the trial lawyer in the 60's and 70's. Gasoline tank fires in severe rear end impacts have been a fact of life ever since automakers starting putting the tank back behind the rear axle. Perhaps the safest of all locations for a gasoline tank ever done was in the Model A Ford: The tank was put in the cowling, behind the firewall (even formed the cowling of every '28-'29 Model A, except for the 4-dr sedans), and there was never an instance of one of those tanks exploding, or causing fires until very late in the lives of those cars, 20-30 yrs afterward, when metal fatigue around the upper steering column mount formed, causing seepage of fuel into the interior of the car (speaking as one who owned several Model A's in the 1960's). But, the perceived danger of that tank, even with it's continuous electrical welded seams (in a time when most every other gas tank was put together by merely rolling the edges of two halves, much like the top of a can of green beans from the supermarket), spurred by state motor vehicle departments, and by "crusading" state legislators, forced Ford to rethink things, so they put the gas tank of the Deuce where? Between the rear bumper and the rear axle, just like everyone else.

Same too, with the mounting of Chevy/GMC full size pickup tanks outside the frame rails. If one thinks about it, NBC News "demonstration" required an external source of ignition to get a fire started after a side impact. Further, if that is such a dangerous place for a fuel tank, on the outside of a truck frame, how is it that nobody cared a whit about the hundreds of thousands of medium and heavy duty trucks out there, all with at least one fuel tank, right where it will burst in a heavy side impact? Hmmmm!

Art

Don't for get about them exploding Crown Vics .Why if you drive one it will blow up every time . Millions dead because they all catch on fire. Funny how many Pintos and Crown Vics are still in one piece .

[Harold]

Don't for get about them exploding Crown Vics .Why if you drive one it will blow up every time . Millions dead because they all catch on fire. Funny how many Pintos and Crown Vics are still in one piece .

Of course, with their history of meddling in the auto industry for the last forty years, how much does it add to the price of a car to meet all the regulations the gummint has heaped on over the years? There are many things that are necessary, but can we maybe get rid of the umb stuff? Example- if the CHMSL is so great, how come we always have rear-end collisions?

[Harry P.]

Of course, with their history of meddling in the auto industry for the last forty years, how much does it add to the price of a car to meet all the regulations the gummint has heaped on over the years? There are many things that are necessary, but can we maybe get rid of the umb stuff? Example- if the CHMSL is so great, how come we always have rear-end collisions?

All the government regulations and safety standards, like them or not, have decreased driver/passenger injuries and fatalities by a huge amount. And since ALL cars sold in America, domestic and foreign, have to meet the same standards, the American automakers aren't at any disadvantage.

I'll take airbags, crumple zones and antilock brakes any time, thank you very much. I'd much rather be driving a car that will cushion the blow in a collision with a nice flexible airbag that keeps my face in one piece rather than a car where I'd wind up impaled on the steering column (and yes, I've had experience with airbags. They work!) Do those items add to the cost of a car? Of course they do. But whatever premium I'm paying for airbags and crashworthiness up front, I'd say it's cheap insurance in the long run.

The CHMSL has probably reduced the number of rear-enders, but not eliminated them totally. Why? Because as of yet our cars aren't totally idiot-proof. There's still the "nut that holds the wheel" to contend with.

[Art Anderson]

Who's making all the arms now? Don't we have plenty of other manufacturers cranking out tanks, planes, helicopters, etc. right now?

And if the US auto industry as it currently exists (the Big Three) were to disappear (highly unlikely, bailout or not), you can bet that new, leaner, more efficient car companies would spring up almost immediately. All the car guys currently running (or ruining, as the case may be) the Big Three right now wouldn't all just ride off into the sunset... they'd be gathering investors and starting up new companies. I think we could possibly see a rebirth of a vital, competitive American auto industry that would be impossible to accomplish with the companies (and business models of those companies) that we now have.

Of course, in the meantime, while all this is supposed to happen, what about the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of workers, and company owners, of supplier firms to the Big Three. Just how are they to survive to greet the "Next Coming" of Detroit? Inquiring minds want to know.

Art

[Art Anderson]

Of course, with their history of meddling in the auto industry for the last forty years, how much does it add to the price of a car to meet all the regulations the gummint has heaped on over the years? There are many things that are necessary, but can we maybe get rid of the umb stuff? Example- if the CHMSL is so great, how come we always have rear-end collisions?

Harold,

When the FDA gets their act together, and bans the production, sale, possession and consumption of STUPID PILLS. Of course, that would mean that every politician, bureaucrat, and the rest of us 300 million Americans would have to go "on that wagon", something I don't expect to see happen in my lifetime.

Art

[Harry P.]

Of course, in the meantime, while all this is supposed to happen, what about the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of workers, and company owners, of supplier firms to the Big Three. Just how are they to survive to greet the "Next Coming" of Detroit? Inquiring minds want to know.

Art

I'm not predicting a timetable. I'm saying it would happen, and with this country'sl demand for new cars, I'd bet it would happen very quickly.

And in the meantime, of course, we would still have MILLIONS of cars on the road that all need parts, service, oil changes, tires, etc. for MANY years to come. Plenty of market for the parts companies and various other automotive-related companies to service while the new companies get up and running.

And why does the rebirth of the industry necessarily have to happen in Detroit?

[Art Anderson]

I'm not predicting a timetable. I'm saying it would happen, and with this country'sl demand for new cars, I'd bet it would happen very quickly.

And in the meantime, of course, we would still have MILLIONS of cars on the road that all need parts, service, oil changes, tires, etc. for MANY years to come. Plenty of market for the parts companies and various other automotive-related companies to service while the new companies get up and running.

And why does the rebirth of the industry necessarily have to happen in Detroit?

The reference to Detroit is a figure of speech. And, as for parts, service, oil changes etc., that is aftermarket. But in the immediate, the fallout of any failure of GM, Ford, Chrysler is gonna hit the OEM component makers--for them, there is no aftermarket for their stuff, save for the occasional replacement glass, a busted headlight perhaps.

Every day, on the Norfolk Southern Detroit-St Louis/Kansas City mainline, we see upwards of 2000 Triple Crown Trailers loaded with components, and several hundred Hi-Cube 85' boxcars carrying probably sheet metal stampings to their final assembly point. As you may know, Lafayette is home to Subaru Indiana Automotive, where the Legacy and Outback are built, along with Toyota Camry's under contract. I suspect that for each of the 3000 or so employees at SIA, there are probably at least 3 more involved somewhere along the line, in subassembly manufacture by contracted suppliers. From my read of things, it's something like that with Ford, GM and Chrysler. The ripple effect goes way beyond the final assembly line. And yet, while Subaru isn't in any particular danger, it's a microcosm.

One of the things brought up in that History Channel program I mentioned last night is the fact that the Hoover Administration opted to let things play out on their own (somewhat understandable, as up to their time, nothing like the events pulling the country down into the Great Depression had ever happened before, certainly not in the manner of a "Perfect Storm". The underlying theme throughout is that so far, the measures that have been taken are those that should have been taken in 1929-30, and weren't, at least not until FDR entered the White House. Of course too, the Federal Government didn't have any of the regulatory bodies, nor the mechanisms in place in '29 with which to deal with things.

But, I do stand on what I said earlier, that 'Detroit' is synonymous with the American based and owned auto industry, whether or not they ever make another car actually in Detroit.

Art

[Harry P.]

But in the immediate, the fallout of any failure of GM, Ford, Chrysler is gonna hit the OEM component makers--for them, there is no aftermarket for their stuff, save for the occasional replacement glass, a busted headlight perhaps.

Art

What about collision repair? Don't bodyshopos need airbags, fenders, bumpers and grilles, etc. all the time?

Sure, the demand for OEM components would be smaller if the Big Three went to that big graveyard of automakers in the sky and joined Studebaker, Willys-Overland, Cord/Auburn/Duesenberg, Duryea, AMC, Jordan, Hupp, Kissel, Marmon, Stanley, Pierce-Arrow, etc. etc. But the slowdown would only be temporary.

Hey... I never said the transition would be easy or painless... I'm not saying it would be a wonderful thing to see the Big Three disappear, I'm saying that the death of the "current" US auto industry would not be permanent, but temporary, and the resulting new companies could very well be better than the ones they replace.

Here's another interesting thought: If the Big Three did disappear, the demand for cars here in the US wouldn't suddenly shrink! Wouldn't the remaining manufacturers who operate here (Toyota, Honda, BMW and all the rest) start to immediately ramp up production to meet the demand? Build new plants, hire more workers? Maybe even ex-Big Three workers, who are experienced and available? Wouldn't it make sense that the remaining manufacturers would increase production in order to meet demand?