Don Grotheer 1970 Cuda

[Speedfreak]

Hey Chris, what color is this type? Don't look at it, just use common sense and then tell me what you see.

It doesn't take slight of hand to tell Moulin Rouge from Red/orange, but I'm thinking maybe for some people commenting in this thread it may.

Oh, and Moulin Rouge was a new color for Plymouth in 1970, so it makes sense (even the common kind) that they would have wanted it on a car that they were sponsoring, to kind of get some exposure, know what I mean? Maybe just maybe, Don didn't like it so he went with the colors on his jacket, (you know, the ones you can clearly see in the 'old' photo? Seriously.). Like I've already stated, maybe, just maybe that car was one of the first, and maybe the first '70 'Cuda that Plymouth sponsored for Don.

Below is a link you might be interested in, Panther Pink/Moulin Rouge were annonced by Chrysler in early January, 1970 for early Feburary production.

http://www.pantherpink.com/

I'd really like to say a whole lot more but I better not. I just love the stuff you say about not trusting your eyes where colors are concerned, priceless. Keep up the good work!

Edited July 18, 2014 by Speedfreak

[Brett Barrow]

My theory is the black or dark blue/pink car is a show car*, probably put together by Plymouth, for auto shows and publicity events. That's clearly a publicity photo with Grotheer posing like that. The blue/red-orange car I posted from the Pro Stock Nationals in York PA 1970 is clearly a race car and is most defiantly built from a body-in-white, as you can see the engine compartment is white and the cowl lacks the factory blackout.

*or an early season race car but they are clearly not the same car.

And racers didn't have to use factory colors. It was probably encouraged, tough. I remember having a similar discussion about the Lawman 64 Plymouth being Turbine Bronze when the real Turbine car was still being built in Italy and Turbine Bronze wouldn't be a factory color for a couple years. I surmised it was simply a candy orange paint job that could have been done by any competent painter.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[gtx6970]

A friend of mine owns one of the former Grotheer cars. It's a white 1971 Hemi cuda. And is the car that Plymouth sent Don as a carrier / supplier of everything required to dress out the body in white used as and also supplied by chrysler that was destined to be used as the actual race car.

He has come to know and regard MR Grotheer as a friend and in multiple conversations to the subject. ALL Grotheer race cars were some shade of Blue, white and orange . He will ask about the possibilty to a show car and/or race painted black

[Brett Barrow]

Below is a link you might be interested in, Panther Pink/Moulin Rouge were annonced by Chrysler in early January, 1970 for early Feburary production.

http://www.pantherpink.com/

I don't know if you meant to show that Moulin Rouge was not a late model year addition, but Feburary production would be considered late in the MY. Don't know the specifics for Plymouth in MY 70, but typically production for a given MY would have begun in July of the previous CY with vehicles going on sale in October (so they coincide with new fall TV season advertising. Nowadays the new MY can legally begin Jan 2 of the previous CY so they can coincide with Super Bowl ads!)

Edited July 18, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[Brett Barrow]

Here's a little something I've been messing around with. It's not perfect but it will do for me. I got hold of the new Sox and Martin Cuda kit and went to town taping and painting. I use Testors Lacquer Hemi Orange and White and used Scale Finishes 1970 Dodge B5 Bright Blue. This is all paint, no decals. Pictures aren't the best just some quick ones I took.

That looks spot on for the York car I posted.

[Speedfreak]

Bill, I believe everything you say about the cars Don raced, being painted blue/white/red, (also the colors on Don's jacket in the first photo) you can see that in all the other photos, but , not the first one. If what Brett says is true about the car in the first photo being a 'show' car, for promotional purposes, then it could very well be the reason for it being different colors.

Brett, It's because Chris insinuates that the color would not have been available. Like we know when the first photo was taken? The earliest known car in Moulin Rouge/Panther Pink was built on Feb, 11th, 1970. According to the Panther Pink site the first showing of that color was at the 1970 Chicago Auto Show which ran Feb 21-Mar 1, 1970.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Speedfreak

[Brett Barrow]

Bill, I believe everything you say about the cars Don raced, being painted blue/white/red, (also the colors on Don's jacket in the first photo) you can see that in all the other photos, but , not the first one. If what Brett says is true about the car in the first photo being a 'show' car, for promotional purposes, then it could very well be the reason for it being different colors.

It could be a car put together to run Super Stock in late season 1969 before the new Pro Stock class was created for 1970. It still has marker lights, which a Super Stock would have had, but were not required for Pro Stock. Super Stocks in 1970 were no longer allowed non-factory hood scoops, so it would have had a shaker hood if it were a 1970 Super Stock car.

So that's my theory, show car or (probably more likely the more I think about it) late 69 Super Stock.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[Speedfreak]

Jason, the car looks great. Sorry for all the posts about the first pic. Gene.

[jwrass]

My My!!!! Part Fact, Part Fiction, Part Theory!!! I hope CSI can help us out on this one!!!!

Jason- Awesome tape outs!!!! I love it when someone takes the time, does the hard work and applies paint vs decals. Great work!!!!

Brett- All your Theories work for me! The very first picture was as you said most likely a promo car or SS car. When you look inside the car their are no bars so it's not a Pro Stock for sure and most likely not even a SS as I think they required at least a roll over hoop. The Moulin Rouge Code and Paint numbers I provided in a earlier post come from a old Ditzler/PPG color chip book that I have had since forever. There is a * at the bottom of the page that states" Production run on this color will be available Fed 24, 1970".

Gene- The first photo of the car is most definitely Moulin Rouge!

Chris- I think your fact checker may be a bit out of calibration. Very few got anything from the factory even the Sox & Martins of the world and if they did it was seconds and the teams were thankful for it! The car clinics that the factories put together were for the benefit of the car buying public more so than that of the race car teams. I've heard the color white story a zillon times, I don't know who started that one but 95% of those cars took a bath in acid before any construction began so color was irrelevant.

Even though Pro Stock became a official class for the 1970 season. I don't think a real true race car was built until Bill Jenkins built his 72 Vega without any factory help. State of the art chassis, glass components and the car ran a small block.

[ChrisPflug]

Chris- I think your fact checker may be a bit out of calibration. Very few got anything from the factory even the Sox & Martins of the world and if they did it was seconds and the teams were thankful for it! The car clinics that the factories put together were for the benefit of the car buying public more so than that of the race car teams. I've heard the color white story a zillon times, I don't know who started that one but 95% of those cars took a bath in acid before any construction began so color was irrelevant.

Sounds like a bit of confusion - "Body- in- white" is a term that has nothing to do with color- it's a term referring to an assembled car body bare, without mechanical parts or trim (or even a VIN), not a "white car body".

Don't know how these would have been shipped, either bare metal or the dip tank primer seem most likely

As mentioned most of the race cars were acid dipped and given additional tweaks- Chrysler didn't build the cars, the big racers generally had good sized shops of their own and a stripped unibody was the easiest start for cars. Obviously you had to have a "Direct Connection" to buy a "body in white"- not something the factory was wanting to sell regularly to the general public. A "Factory" team would still have to buy their own parts but have better access to them then the average customer. Being able to buy a stripped body rather than a complete new car still offered a substantial savings to a racer wanting to run a current model "stock appearing" race car

Still haven't figured out how the "exact" shade of pink/orange/red could possibly be important enough to generate so much excitement

[Brett Barrow]

Sounds like a bit of confusion - "Body- in- white" is a term that has nothing to do with color- it's a term referring to an assembled car body bare, without mechanical parts or trim (or even a VIN), not a "white car body".

Yeah, I mentioned body-in-white and the engine compartment color in one post without thinking of the connotations. What I meant was to show that the car obviously wasn't built from a production line B5 Blue car (since it has white inner fenders and firewall) OR a production line white car (since the cowl wasn't blacked out).

For illustration purposes here is a late model Camaro body-in-white.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/camaro-body-in-white.html

In manufacturing terms body-in-white is the skeleton of the car without any moving panels, but above is how a body-in-white is sold to racers.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[1972coronet]

Permit me to add a couple of more carrots to this stew ; here's a link to the 1974 'Body Tooling Proof' Barracuda :

http://barnfinds.com/one-of-none-1974-plymouth-barracuda/

This certainly qualifies as a Body-In-White !

[jwrass]

To All,

The term Body in White or it came in primer has been around for as long as I can remember and I was born in 55. To be truthful I never really understood where it came from and I have been around racing and race cars all my life. What prompted me to further investigate this topic was my own curiosity, personal experience and John Shoes photo.

A very good friend of my fathers was a USAC stock car driver by the name of Norm Nelson. Norm was a multiple USAC champion, Owner/Driver and had a who's who of drivers who drove for him, AJ Foyt, Jim Hurtibuies, Rodger McCluskey. Norm Nelson Automotive had factory backing from Chrysler and ran under the Plymouth banner, His shop was about two miles from our house and if I wasn't there with my father when I was a kid I would often ride my stingray to the shop at least once a week to hang out, sweep the floor, take the garbage out, all for as many contingency stickers a kid could ever ask for.

The thing that turned a light bulb on in my head is I remember a day when I was at the shop and a flatbed showed up with a Belvidere packaged in a large wooden crate similar to the one in Johns picture but with much more wood. The Mechanics in the shop stripped much of the crate away and Norms son and I went to town on that body with shop rags and turpentine to remove the cosmoline.

In my research I found some interesting information the following are quotes and copies of information I found. Their is a lot more out there but I found these two very interesting. I think it's fair to say there was some confusion!!! None of us were 100% right or 100% wrong.

Body In White: A stage in the automotive design which a car bodies sheet metal have been welded but before moving parts have been installed.

The name derives from manufacturing practices before steel, unibody or monocoque bodies, When automotive bodies were made by outside firms on a separate chassis with a engine, suspension and fenders attached. The manufactures built or purchased wooden bodies (with thin, non structural metal sheets on the outside) to bolt onto the frame. The bodies were painted white prior to the final color. Think pre 40s era cars.

I have known for years that you can buy original clones and full body combos by the OEMS for racing purposes but had never heard the phrase body in white as coined by GM.

In closing. I have to say I'm not proud of the part I played in feeding the firestorm of this thread.

Jason, My Personal Apology to you!!!!! As I said before I love what you are doing and look forward to your build

[jjsipes]

Just seen on Slixx decals facebook page a preview of there up coming Don Grotheer decals for this model kit. Pretty nice looking.

[Mark Cashman]

On 6/30/2014 at 2:26 PM, Rob Hall said:

First car is a '70, 2nd is a '71. Different hood scoops also--1st looks like one of the trapazoidal Hemi scoops like in the Revell '68 Charger and Hemi Dart kits.

 

I wonder what those wheels are on the '70? Neat squared spokes..

Concerning the wheels you were asking about, those are Fenton Shark wheels, like Arlen Vanke's 68 Cuda had. See the Fenton name on the leading edge? The Revell 68 Charger and Hemi Dart kits don't have the same scoop. The one in the photo looks like the one in the Dart kit.