Darin Bastedo Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 No doubt you're correct, BUT ... as I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if you don't someone to THINK you're a Nazi, you shouldn't sport swastikas. In the same vein, if you want people to THINK you're an ignorant backwoods racist, you probably shouldn't fly the same flag that KKK did during its reign of terror. Now that's not fair. I have friends who are ingnorant and backwoods, but they're really nice guys...now racists on the other hand, I have no use for.
outsider Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 No doubt you're correct, BUT ... as I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if you don't someone to THINK you're a Nazi, you shouldn't sport swastikas. In the same vein, if you want people to THINK you're an ignorant backwoods racist, you probably shouldn't fly the same flag that KKK did during its reign of terror. true but in the same vein it could be said your just as much a racist by labeling everyone who has a battle flag (historical or not) in to the same group much the same as the old cliches of nascar and budweiser for the south. but those who do not live here do not get to see the dual nature of what we call down here the 'southern thing' to give an eample through all the bs we went through with george wallace he still won his last run for office with 99% of the black vote. thats fact and knowing the history of george wallace and who he was it does go to show the duality of the "southern thing"
JAFFA Posted February 4, 2008 Author Posted February 4, 2008 WOW! 61 posts! And from reading themi think we can really just agree to disagree, as someone said the flag (as many other symbols) just symbolizes different things to different people, nomatter what it means to you, there will allways be someone who is offended.. It is just how it is, but, however this whole "concept" (?) has been widely exhagerated, for what i see most foreign or strange people everywhere seems to mix up patriotism with some sort of nationalism or even rascism, like here in scandinavia, where many people like to take pride in our viking heritage, and we do have LOADS of mid-eastern people here, and i tell ya for some reason when they see someone listening to eg. Ultima Thule (a band which play vikingarock and stands out as a rolefigure of our vikng heritage) or even someone who has got a Swedish flag on his keychain, that guy is immidately a racist, they are having more and more of our old symbols of the Asa banned from public display, such as the hammer of Thor, (wich is not banned yet), and i am really pissed of about it, you can see them sitting on a bench being loud, playing their (i will censor my opinions about it, due to irrelevance to the subject) **** ************* music, wearing their religious costumes, wawing their national flags or whatever, fine, no one cares, BUT if a swedish guy walks by, with a swedish flag on his shirt, hes a nationalist, and trust me, THEY will make him know what they think. Last year the muslims in a small community here wanted to establish a Mosque, sure they got their permit, no problem, BUT then they demmanded that WE ceased all Christian activity in that community, and stopped using OUR church, because "it disturbed their religious activity", and its when i hear about things like this that i think that: PEOPLE!! CANT YOU SEE THIS IS OUT OF HAND!? The confederate flag is NOT a symbol of racism, its a symbol of the Sout States of America, the good ol' America, wich i love and treasure more than any other nation, even my own, and where i hope to live the rest of my life in a year or two, please, how could any banners of this fine land, THE LAND OF FREEDOM AND OPPORTUNITY if i do not remember incorrectly???, become a symbol of hatrid?? Its just so sad.... I edmit i cant spell: exhagerated
JAFFA Posted February 4, 2008 Author Posted February 4, 2008 This has been a very informative and in some ways educational thread and has been handled in a mature way by all involved, especially the moderators! Yeah! i really think the moderators deserve a great big thanks for letting this thread go on, without anyone "strangly disappearing" or any "accidents happening to anyone who may or may not have said too much" No really, big thanks to the moderators!, whoom i guess must be unpartial and thereby silent on this one... THANKS DUDES
Harry P. Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 The confederate flag is NOT a symbol of racism... You couldn't be more wrong! Today the Confederate flag is has become a symbol of racism because it's been adopted by racist groups over the years as "their" flag. It didn't start out that way, obviously-it was a Civil War battle flag-but because it's now used as a symbol by various racist groups, it has lost its original context and become a symbol of something other than it once was. That's not to say that EVERYONE who has a Confederate flag on their pickup truck is racist, but as Ken wisely said, if you AREN'T a racist, and you DON'T want to look like one, then WHY fly a flag that symbolizes that very thing??? Same thing with the Nazi swastika. You could be a "flag collector"...but if you have the Nazi flag displayed in your living room as part of your collection, when people see it the first thing they will associate you with is definitely NOT flag collecting. See my point??
Modelmartin Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 Jaffa, Don't put too much stock in America being the land of the free and the home of the brave. We are just human beings like people everywhere. The types of people you described in Sweden are also here in America. We have the good, the bad , and the ugly (Hmm! Might make a good movie title). There is probably greater economic and personal freedom here but job security, economic security, and health and education are more precarious here than in the EU. No matter where you go - there you are!
Nick F40 Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 You couldn't be more wrong! Today the Confederate flag is has become a symbol of racism because it's been adopted by racist groups over the years as "their" flag. It didn't start out that way, obviously-it was a Civil War battle flag-but because it's now used as a symbol by various racist groups, it has lost its original context and become a symbol of something other than it once was. That's not to say that EVERYONE who has a Confederate flag on their pickup truck is racist, but as Ken wisely said, if you AREN'T a racist, and you DON'T want to look like one, then WHY fly a flag that symbolizes that very thing??? Same thing with the Nazi swastika. You could be a "flag collector"...but if you have the Nazi flag displayed in your living room as part of your collection, when people see it the first thing they will associate you with is definitely NOT flag collecting. See my point?? Ahaaaaaaaaa, there's my point, IT ORIGINALLY WASN'T A RACIST FLAG, but people had screwed it up over the years so now it's permantly screwed over. People need to know things better before they judge.
outsider Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) First of all, sir, I want to let you know that I take ENORMOUS offense at your inference. Forming an opinion of a person based on the flag he or she chooses to fly is a far cry from judging a person based on skin color, and anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature should realize that. I respectfully request an apology. And, in the interest of keeping this thread civil, I'll let it end there. i promise i didn't mean to offend but making an asumption about someone soley based on outward apperances is just as ignorant as judging someone by their skin color. i'm sorry you took offence and i do apologize for that. Edited February 4, 2008 by outsider
Dave Van Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 It means the Southern 500 and race cars to me......... Goes to show out of 100 people...you will get 100 answers........
Darin Bastedo Posted February 4, 2008 Posted February 4, 2008 Goes to show out of 100 people...you will get 100 answers........ Sometimes more than 100
62rebel Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 i pride myself on being a Virginia-born Southerner and a member of a family that traces it's roots far past any inter-tribal conflicts resulting in being sold into the New England-run Slave trade of the 18th and 19th centuries. for those of you that consider being "Southern" equal to being barefoot, ignorant, and useless, i'd like to see the end result of this nation had we been able to secede peacefully without forced return to the Union. The United States is currently the ONLY nation still holding territory seized from a sovereign nation during wartime... yet our military is conducting continuing operations overseas to quote LIBERATE unquote foreign nationals..... Virginia is a Commonwealth; supposedly an equal entity to the Federal Government (a centralized Federal Republic is NOT what the "Founding Fathers" had in mind..read your Patrick Henry, Henry Clay, John Calhoun etc) yet like the various and sundry other states and Commonwealths stands subjugate to "majority rule" (laughable at best when the minorities are the ones who have their say) and must kowtow to Washington in every circumstance. i am certainly aware of and respectful of the suffering of slaves in the United States up to and during the War for Southern Independence; yet slavery was illegal in the Confederacy. it was however, legal throughout the North and practiced EVEN AFTER the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse. as a matter of fact, several NORTHERN states and cities quickly enacted laws to prevent freed blacks from emigrating into their boundaries, and even permitted them being whipped out of city or state limits. these laws predated ANY "Jim Crow" laws enacted in the South. it is true that the victorious side writes History books; all through History the truth is overshadowed by the victor proving his point through misinformation and twisting of facts to suit the outcome. Abraham Lincoln would glady have let the South go to avoid a war if not for the loss of income from the very sweat and blood of the slaves he eventually "Emancipated" despite his known suspicion of having great numbers of freed blacks remain in the US. i apologize for the long rant but this is the last one i will ever post here. farewell.
Darin Bastedo Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 i pride myself on being a Virginia-born Southerner and a member of a family that traces it's roots far past any inter-tribal conflicts resulting in being sold into the New England-run Slave trade of the 18th and 19th centuries. for those of you that consider being "Southern" equal to being barefoot, ignorant, and useless, i'd like to see the end result of this nation had we been able to secede peacefully without forced return to the Union. The United States is currently the ONLY nation still holding territory seized from a sovereign nation during wartime... yet our military is conducting continuing operations overseas to quote LIBERATE unquote foreign nationals..... Virginia is a Commonwealth; supposedly an equal entity to the Federal Government (a centralized Federal Republic is NOT what the "Founding Fathers" had in mind..read your Patrick Henry, Henry Clay, John Calhoun etc) yet like the various and sundry other states and Commonwealths stands subjugate to "majority rule" (laughable at best when the minorities are the ones who have their say) and must kowtow to Washington in every circumstance. i am certainly aware of and respectful of the suffering of slaves in the United States up to and during the War for Southern Independence; yet slavery was illegal in the Confederacy. it was however, legal throughout the North and practiced EVEN AFTER the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse. as a matter of fact, several NORTHERN states and cities quickly enacted laws to prevent freed blacks from emigrating into their boundaries, and even permitted them being whipped out of city or state limits. these laws predated ANY "Jim Crow" laws enacted in the South. it is true that the victorious side writes History books; all through History the truth is overshadowed by the victor proving his point through misinformation and twisting of facts to suit the outcome. Abraham Lincoln would glady have let the South go to avoid a war if not for the loss of income from the very sweat and blood of the slaves he eventually "Emancipated" despite his known suspicion of having great numbers of freed blacks remain in the US. i apologize for the long rant but this is the last one i will ever post here. farewell. As a son of the Confederacy (The Iroquois Confederacy that is) I'm afraid I have little simpathy for the "injury suffered by the south" from the north. I'm certain if given the option my ancestors would have prefered the lot of the southern man.
JAFFA Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 You couldn't be more wrong! Today the Confederate flag is has become a symbol of racism because it's been adopted by racist groups over the years as "their" flag. It didn't start out that way, obviously-it was a Civil War battle flag-but because it's now used as a symbol by various racist groups, it has lost its original context and become a symbol of something other than it once was. See my point?? Well, yeah, i do see your point, but in it lies my point, i refuse to accept that a symbol could change symbolism, just because of a few morons with spiky white hoods like to walk around the streets and shout things.... A symbol is created, never recreated... Jaffa, Don't put too much stock in America being the land of the free and the home of the brave. We are just human beings like people everywhere. The types of people you described in Sweden are also here in America. We have the good, the bad , and the ugly (Hmm! Might make a good movie title). There is probably greater economic and personal freedom here but job security, economic security, and health and education are more precarious here than in the EU. No matter where you go - there you are! Yeah, i do realize that, but then i dont want the americans, i just want a piece of your land , and about the health, education and security stuff, thats what i like, its all in your own hands uner your own responsibility, over here everyone is so de-liberated, everywhere you look theres something that prohibits you from something because "its not safe to use theese kinds of plastic spoons" so everyone has to be sheltered from them....
Harry P. Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 A symbol is created, never recreated... Well, technically you're right of course...once a symbol is created, it exists...it can't be created again. But the meaning of that symbol can change over time. Take the swastika. It was created over 3,000 years ago! Over that time it has been adopted by many diverse groups and symbolized many different things. We all know who made it famous (or infamous). But what it symbolizes today has nothing to do with what it symbolized long ago. Same with the Confederate flag.
JAFFA Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 Well, technically you're right of course...once a symbol is created, it exists...it can't be created again. But the meaning of that symbol can change over time. Take the swastika. It was created over 3,000 years ago! Over that time it has been adopted by many diverse groups and symbolized many different things. We all know who made it famous (or infamous). But what it symbolizes today has nothing to do with what it symbolized long ago. Same with the Confederate flag. I guess it all comes down to who knows and who doesent..? Most people DONT, it will allways be like that, and has allways been so. But, ill wear a symbol ONLY with its original meaning, but, what if I dont know? Its perpetual...
Harry P. Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 I guess it all comes down to who knows and who doesent..? Most people DONT, it will allways be like that, and has allways been so. But, ill wear a symbol ONLY with its original meaning, but, what if I dont know? Its perpetual... Stick to a smiley face and you'll be safe!!!
Helipilot16 Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 You couldn't be more wrong! Today the Confederate flag is has become a symbol of racism because it's been adopted by racist groups over the years as "their" flag. It didn't start out that way, obviously-it was a Civil War battle flag-but because it's now used as a symbol by various racist groups, it has lost its original context and become a symbol of something other than it once was. That's not to say that EVERYONE who has a Confederate flag on their pickup truck is racist, but as Ken wisely said, if you AREN'T a racist, and you DON'T want to look like one, then WHY fly a flag that symbolizes that very thing??? Same thing with the Nazi swastika. You could be a "flag collector"...but if you have the Nazi flag displayed in your living room as part of your collection, when people see it the first thing they will associate you with is definitely NOT flag collecting. See my point?? I agree completely with Harry on this one. I spent my formative years in the south and I still have racist relatives living in Tennessee. I hear their ###### all the time stated as "facts" about the "inferiority" of other races. They fly the stars and bars with great pride.
Helipilot16 Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 i pride myself on being a Virginia-born Southerner and a member of a family that traces it's roots far past any inter-tribal conflicts resulting in being sold into the New England-run Slave trade of the 18th and 19th centuries. for those of you that consider being "Southern" equal to being barefoot, ignorant, and useless, i'd like to see the end result of this nation had we been able to secede peacefully without forced return to the Union. The United States is currently the ONLY nation still holding territory seized from a sovereign nation during wartime... yet our military is conducting continuing operations overseas to quote LIBERATE unquote foreign nationals..... Virginia is a Commonwealth; supposedly an equal entity to the Federal Government (a centralized Federal Republic is NOT what the "Founding Fathers" had in mind..read your Patrick Henry, Henry Clay, John Calhoun etc) yet like the various and sundry other states and Commonwealths stands subjugate to "majority rule" (laughable at best when the minorities are the ones who have their say) and must kowtow to Washington in every circumstance. i am certainly aware of and respectful of the suffering of slaves in the United States up to and during the War for Southern Independence; yet slavery was illegal in the Confederacy. it was however, legal throughout the North and practiced EVEN AFTER the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse. as a matter of fact, several NORTHERN states and cities quickly enacted laws to prevent freed blacks from emigrating into their boundaries, and even permitted them being whipped out of city or state limits. these laws predated ANY "Jim Crow" laws enacted in the South. it is true that the victorious side writes History books; all through History the truth is overshadowed by the victor proving his point through misinformation and twisting of facts to suit the outcome. Abraham Lincoln would glady have let the South go to avoid a war if not for the loss of income from the very sweat and blood of the slaves he eventually "Emancipated" despite his known suspicion of having great numbers of freed blacks remain in the US. i apologize for the long rant but this is the last one i will ever post here. farewell. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. This is simply a load of southern BS that gets promulgated in households and schools all over the south.
Nick F40 Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) I guess it all comes down to who knows and who doesent..? Most people DONT, it will allways be like that, and has allways been so. But, ill wear a symbol ONLY with its original meaning, but, what if I dont know? Its perpetual... I fully agree with ya. A symbol is created, never recreated. Just because some drunk morons feel like going around in robes being pansies not wanting to let people know their identity and not even knowing what a black man or dare I say, negro, is, doesn't mean I'm just going to go, well, I guess I should stop carrying the confederate flag. If Hitler wouldn't have used the swastika, it would never of had the image we have of it today. I guess I also follow the original meaning also. Remember, mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. Edited February 6, 2008 by Nick F40
Nick F40 Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) Well, I greatly appoligize if I offended you at all. I just get sick and tired of the stereotyping used against this and the flag and the things, just because you like or do, your a redneck or racist. Edited February 6, 2008 by Nick F40
JAFFA Posted February 7, 2008 Author Posted February 7, 2008 Nobody, & I repeat, NOBODY has called anyone else racist! neither of them could ever recall seeing anyone fly that damned flag prior to the 1950's! Nor could any of my other relatives, going back to the 1900's. Fast forward to the 1950's & desegregation. Racist white Southerners adapted the Confederate battle flag as a rallying symbol. Therefore it IS a symbol for racism, NO matter how you try to spin it in some sort of revisionist BS fairytale! The history from that era on is well documented & so is the reasoning behind the resurrection of that flag. It was revived for racist reasons! That is an easily found, read & proven fact, NOT opinion or supposition. Now that was some of the most interresting inputs so far on this post!
JAFFA Posted February 7, 2008 Author Posted February 7, 2008 I noticed that the General Lee was brought up on a few occations on this topic, wich makes me think: The General Lee aint a symbol of racism, how do that come? There must be a thousand perpectives on the Stars & Bars, and find it har to imagine that everyone will ever start to agree on wich is the correct one.
kasteer Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 Well, this thread is probably old for everyone now and it seems to have developed into quite a hot topic. But I feel I have a middle of the road view of this and therefore would like to share... My relatives on both sides are from Germany and came here prior to WWII so I claim no affiliation to the North, South, nor Nazis. I did however grow up in NC for 11 yrs and now reside in Md. So I've been in the Civil War area for my entire life. My view on caucasians and the flag... Some take pride in it for historical reason (their ancestors revolted from the union for anyone of many reasons) and probably are enbarassed to be seen with it anymore because of the whole issue around it nowadays. Others could care less about the historical aspect and fly it as a symbol of rebellion (ie. young, inoccent rebelleous teenagers). Lastly there are those who fly it for the shock value and because it has developed into something mean and degrading to others. My view on African-Americans... They see it as a symbol of slavery, racism, degredation and hate. And justly so. I've talked to some close African-American coworkers about some of the issues in the news over the last few years and we've had frank, fair conversations about this. My conclusion... The flag is part of our history and we should honor that history by learning as much as we can about both sides of the war. If someone wants to have a symbol of hate, or love, or whatever... be original and develop your own symbol. Like the gay and lesbians did with the rainbow sticker. We don't have slaves anymore, nor outhouses, nor do we rely on horses to get to work... times change and we move on. We learn from our past so we can make better decisions in the future. We are not North and South, we are one nation. We need to put aside past differences, and respect our fellow Americans... both black and white. soapbox cleared...
Modelmartin Posted February 7, 2008 Posted February 7, 2008 Bluesman Mark very succinctly summarized the recent history and meanings of the Confederate battle flag in my opinion. I don't mind tossing a little gasoline on the fire here and there and want to relate some of my thoughts on another flag. I came of age during the Viet Nam war and my family was involved in the peace and anti-war movements. The pro-war folks (we called them Hawks and some were called Chickenhawks!) made a lot of negative insinuations about our patriotism and miscellaneous personal qualities and heritage and waved the Stars and Stripes in our faces and told us to love it or leave it(the USA, of course). The American flag has negative connotations for me as a result. To me it is a focal point for wrong-headed nationalism run amok and we Americans are certainly not unique in this regard. Why on earth do we need to use any of these flags and symbols? I am an American and a Minnesotan and also an Earthling! I do not need to fly any those flags because I know who I am. Misc. Thoughts Department: Fighting for the flag. Whaaa? I think the fighting is for the nation, state, or cause and not a piece of fabric. The more importance one puts in a mere symbol the more easily offence will be taken and conflict begun. If someone burns a flag I do not think the nation will fall to pieces! Jaffa - You certainly will be able to find lots of land here in the US. You can find a few acres and a ramshackle house out in the prairie for a few thousand bucks! You might have to drive 50 miles to get groceries, however! Over here we don't use as much government to over-regulate daily life as in Europe. We use Personal Injury attorneys to do that!
JAFFA Posted February 7, 2008 Author Posted February 7, 2008 Jaffa - You certainly will be able to find lots of land here in the US. You can find a few acres and a ramshackle house out in the prairie for a few thousand bucks! You might have to drive 50 miles to get groceries, however! Over here we don't use as much government to over-regulate daily life as in Europe. We use Personal Injury attorneys to do that!
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