60's fuel pump question

[noname]

I was wondering where the alternative location for a fuel pump would be on an early - mid 60's blown engine would be?  I noticed for example on the early blown Olds motor of the early Stone, Woods and Cook car that there is a regular looking water pump on the engine and I'm assuming the mechanical fuel pump is not sticking out the front of the motor as normally expected.  Did they have electric fuel pumps back then?  Thanks

[Ace-Garageguy]

High-volume electric fuel pumps existed, were often converted surplus military aviation units, and could work with carbureted, blown engines.

Blown engines with mechanical fuel-injection would usually require mechanical pumps, as the speed of the pump needs to rise with engine RPM.

Mechanical injection pumps could be driven by angle-drives jacked from the distributor/magneto location as well, from an extension shaft that would clear the water pump, or directly from the blower drive.

Note the fuel pumps driven from the old distributor location on these blown Pontiacs in Thompson's Challenger I. The magnetos in this case have been moved to the front of the engines, driven off of the blower drives.

Another option is a cam-driven water pump that in turn drives the injection pump, and all of it still clears the blower drive.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[GaryR]

The fuel pump on the SWC Willys is part of the magneto, driven off the distributer/magneto drive on the rear of the engine. That was so they could use a water pump. It was actually more typical to use an electric water pump on gas class cars, a bilge pump to be exact. This would free up the front cam drive type pump.

You can find good pumps in the AMT parts pack, the Garlits Wynns Jammer or the Piranha to name a few.

[noname]

Thanks for that guys.  I thought about putting the fuel pump sticking out from the back of the blower as I have seen this before.  But this may get in the way of the magneto.  I try and see.

Bill, I've never seen the set up as in your small picture above. These are period correct?

Gary, I've never seen the fuel pump as part of the magneto before.  Do you happen to have a picture?

I'm building a 56 gasser with a blown 409 and was thinking about keeping the stock water pump in front like they did on the SW&C Olds motor.  I don't have to do it this way but I could picture guys doing this back in the day so they could take short street rides in their Gasser without cooking the motor.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I couldn't find a period shot of a cam-driven water pump with a through-shaft to drive the injection pump, but I have seen it done. A good engineer / machinist could have made such a setup in the old days...before everything came out of a catalog.

I don't know exactly what this is, but it is very similar to (and may be) a vintage Hilborn angle-drive that could be used for an injection pump off of the mag drive location. The tube on the left goes down into the distributor hole in the block, a shaft runs through it to drive the mag which sits on top, and the injection pump resides on the round flange to the right.

BUT...the easiest way for you to set up a gasser to be somewhat streetable would be to take Gary's other suggestion and use electric pumps to circulate coolant.

It's period-correct, and easier to source photos and make the bits.

Brian Chuchua's front-blown '58 Corvette (1960 record-setting 171mph Bonneville car) is one real example of a competition vehicle that ran dual bilge-pumps to circulate coolant. Though it's not mentioned in this article, trust me...that's what he did. The original article in a 1960 Hot Rod issue goes into some detail about it. To keep this blown engine cooled over a long high-speed run at Bonneville, they must have worked pretty good.                        http://www.superchevy.com/features/1508-1958-chevrolet-corvette-sets-record-at-1960-bonneville-speed-trials/

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[noname]

Thanks for the pics.  I like the idea of the fuel pump under the magneto.

 

So under the hood of the Vette, is that the electric pump in the corner?  Cool car.  Thanks

[GaryR]

"Gary, I've never seen the fuel pump as part of the magneto before.  Do you happen to have a picture?"

If you have the original SWC Willys you have one! Examine it closely and you will see the pump.

It is part 24, a chrome part.It's a two piece deal with the "magnito" ( magneto) on the top.

I don't know the brand of the real pump offhand, I will look for pics and post if I find some.

[noname]

No Gary I do not have that kit.  But I can picture what one would look like. I guess something like what Bill has pictured above.  Thanks

[GaryR]

Here's a shot from my friend race car builder/ hot rodder extraordinare, Marty Strode!

NOTE the pump mounted under the magneto.

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by GaryR

[noname]

Cool!  It is slightly different than I thought. Thanks for the picture.  I may have to go the usual route after all. There is not quite enough room behind the blower for a mag.  But I could always put it in front driven by the cam and the fuel pump out the back of the blower just for fun.

 

But now looking at it again maybe with the mag sitting so high it might fit a little better as the top clears the blower.  Thanks again for the picture.

[GaryR]

Another way to go was run the pump off the crank with a small Gilmer Belt drive. John Mazamanians's Willy's used this system, along with the electric water (bilge ) pump. This pics are of  of Rich Fox's  32 Plymouth 200 mph engine for Ford roadster.

Yes I did say 200 mph 1932 Plymouth (L) Flathead four cylinder!

Edited September 22, 2015 by GaryR

[noname]

Wow that is neat.  Never saw one of these before. If they had a problem, they came up with a solution. I'm sure if someone was crafty enough and had some skills they could devise anything imaginable.  I bet a lot of one offs existed during the 60's.

[Ace-Garageguy]

... If they had a problem, they came up with a solution. I'm sure if someone was crafty enough and had some skills they could devise anything imaginable.  I bet a lot of one offs existed during the 60's.

Yup.

Still gettin' built, too.