Questions About Working In Metals

[randx0]

  On 3/9/2010 at 1:34 PM, Gramps-xrds said:

Randy, I didn't take any in progress pix of making the hood, only doing fender skirts and moon caps. I posted those on another forum.

http://thescalesoapb...play&thread=111

http://thescalesoapbox.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=mi&thread=114&page=1

Thank you very much I like the technique as much as the high buck tools required for such a feat.

[randx0]

Well here is the grille I am working on it took a long time to figure out how to get the bars evenly spaced.it is supposed to look like a tractor grille or at least have that feel to it.considering this is a first attempt at scratch building with brass it is turning out just ok.it needs to be cleaned up and tweaked here and there.the red plastic portion will be epoxied on and it will all be painted .any tips on this or pictures of similar grilles would be great.I am not looking for perfection on this one just a usable piece .

[Karmodeler2]

Hey Randy,

I joined this thread probably too late, but I do have some insight for you on metal work. If by chance you have someone locally you can go and get some hands on training, then do so. It is well worth your time, I enlisted the help of a friend (Morgan Barclay) who is a metal master and that's the only medium he uses. He taught me an awful lot. One thing to do is get some plain, manilla folders, the kind from Office Depot or the like. You draw out your template right on the surface of these. If you lightly score your folder with a knife, you can fold it the way you need it. (Score on the top {outside} of the fold...you will be folding away from the score line). Trim this to the shape you need. Take your sheet brass and cover with dykem. It's a lacquer based tint (normally blue or red) found at metal shops. Call metal supply places in your phone book to see if they carry it. If not, use a fat sharpie and trace the outline of you template, then remove the template and mark the other side of the "trace outline".

Then put your template back on top of the brass, and use an awl or scribe and score the brass by tracing the outline of your template. When you remove your template, you will have a "brass" line showing the outline of the part. You can use a dremel with a disc to remove most of the unwanted stuff, then use a file to fine tune it to the "line". This method will save you TONS of time once you get the hang of it.

A bastard file is one of you best friends. When I first got into machining, a machinist told me that a file would be one of my most used tools. I thought that he just didn't know how to machine. Little did I know he was right. Brass files differently than aluminum and the same could be said when machining them.

Don't use the same files unless you clean them very well. (Get your self a file brush...Micro Mark).

You can solder aluminum but it is tricky. The product is called Alumi-rod and I have used it with great results. You will need a propane torch (home depot....a plumbers tourch). It melts around 700 degrees and can solder aluminum to aluminum. So far, non ferrous metals will not bond to ferrous metals, so you can't solder brass to aluminum with success.

Also on soldering: Take your solder wire, smash it with a hammer on an anvil or metal surface, and then cut small slivers of it and place them near the joint. Use flux around the joint and the flux (I use liquid, some use paste) will hold the solder in place. Apply your heat and the flux will pull the solder into the joint. Will give you great joints and clean joints. You can also cut little "dashes" of solder wire (instead of flattening it) and put them against the joint. The heat will pull it into the joint.

If you are having difficulty with the above process, then "tin" the two pieces first, then join them. By that I mean, melt some solder on a piece of glass/marble and dip your brass piece in the wet solder, remove it from the puddle, and let the solder dry on the part. Then do the same with the other part. Now take the two parts, clamp or hold them together. Brush on some flux. Heat the joint and the heat will melt the solder on both pieces and they will be one. I often clamp them so they are pushing against each other. When the solder melts, you will know because you will see them move toward each other.

I use all methods of soldering.(Iron, torch, cold torch, resistance) All are great for their respective ways. The best thing you can do to start out, is to go to radio shack and buy their $20 torch. It's butane and it has an adjustable flame. Very useful. They also sell different solders. Each has a need. The ones with 3 numbers (instead of 60/40....it says 62,36,2) generally have nickel or silver (I forget...help me out Bill Geary) and this is helpful when you need to have a really strong joint. They also have different melting points which is helpful when you are doing intricate work. You can go with the high temp stuff first, and then do the low temp without undoing the first stuff. They also have different diameters which is helpful (melts faster it seems when it's smaller) and you can use them for brake lines on models and they look real.

If you have questions, just email me. I have included some pics to show you dykem and what I'm talking about. All of these parts started out as flat sheet brass. I made a template, used dykem, scored it, ground it, and then filed to the "line" that I scored. I then used a miniature metal brake to bend the small pieces while the grille is solid 1/4 inch brass that I just filed to shape. Remember.....a file is your best tool (and friend).

Not sure what part of MN you live in, but I'm in MSP for 3 weeks starting Sunday, 14 Mar.

If you want, I can show you how to use the folders and some techniques that Morgan showed me that were invaluable to me when I built my truck.

Good luck.

Sincerely,

David

[randx0]

Thanks David,very helpful tips .One that immediately jumped out at me was the using of higher melting point solder first and then lower temp to keep things from falling apart .I think your timing is perfect had you posted earlier before I attempted anything I probably would not have gotten as much out of it.these two projects that I have going I know aren't great but I think they will work for now. I can see what doesn't look like I wanted but I learned a lot just by trying it out .I think maybe the most important step to this metal working is simply doing it. Once you try it ,it becomes less intimidating.That show truck is very nice the metal work on it is exquisite.if you have some pictures of the tools you used that would be helpful also .I have say thank you again to all the experts who have shared their techniques and tips .I aim to be at least half as good as you guys.

for this I stacked five pieces of appropriately sized brass flat bar twice as long as actually needed.then squeezed them into a vice broke about 15 drillbits by drilling two holes in the middle.then removed the separate pieces and started with the longest piece bent it to an acceptable curve .using the lines extracted from the kit piece i cut and shaped the next three pieces .the fifth piece was a rare occasion in which I figured I may screw up so an extra piece already drilled may come in handy .it was a solid idea as it would be hard to match up the holes after bending .I added two retaining clamps and called it done . then I realized the leaves needed shaping on the ends so I took it apart and dremeled the ends and bent the ends up on the bottom leaf.it still needs brackets and stuff but that'll come later.

this is my first brass leaf spring i did the single front early type so I didn't have to duplicate it.

A few shots of the plastic piece being duplicated

and a couple of photos of what the intended purpose is.one thing i did was color code the guide lines it made it much easier to keep everything lined up.

Edited March 13, 2010 by randx0

[Ddms]

Another way to make grilles and vents is to get some ribbed plastic sheet and trim it to size. Then apply Alclad II to it. Dribble flat black between the ribs, quickly wipe off any excess, and you've got a pretty realistic vent or grille. Miniature corrugated metal sheet works too. For metal and plastic shapes, I search my local model RR shop, the Whistle Stop in Pasadena, CA.

As to metals, the most "dangerous" material to tools is stainless steel (music wire) because it's so doggone hard. But it's great if you need a straight length, like a radio antenna. Unlike brass wire, stainless will keep its shape. I have a "dedicated" (ruined) pair of wire cutters that I use for stainless.

[Smart-Resins]

I will add in my two cents here. I use a weller soldering station as I can not afford a resistance soldering set up. Make sure your brass is clean and polished. Heat it up with the soldering iron then solder it, this way the solder will flow into your joint for a stronger joint. I use rosin core silver solder. Works very well! Also, I will use a smaller diameter tube or wire inside the joint to give it strength! If I am doing several joints near each other, I will use small clips for heat sinks. Also, I will do extra solder on the joint, then use a jewelers file later to smooth it out. For aluminum, I use epoxy for joining. The weller station runs around $40. A pound of solder about $13 on ebay. I also use a miniature miter saw wich I bought mine from annaconda on ebay for about $35. Here is a pic of a current project. I have also done a 1/12 scale motor cycle frame. Thanks. Jody

[Aaronw]

Another trick I've found for bending tubing is to support the bend with an object the diameter of the bend, like a wood dowel or piece of plastic rod. You can just carefully bend the tubing around this piece and for whatever reason it prevents getting that kink you get if you do the same thing unsupported.

I'm also a big fan of 5 min epoxy.

I did the handrails on this truck that way.

[Smart-Resins]

Nice! yes, I have a larger piece of brass tubing I epoxied into a board and a nail next to it. That is how I made the drive shaft loop! Jody

Nice! yes, I have a larger piece of brass tubing I epoxied into a board and a nail next to it. That is how I made the drive shaft loop! Jody

[58 Impala]

I recently read an article about soldering brass photo etch in Fine Scale modeling, good article. Does anyone know if you can solder nickel photo etch?

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

  On 3/14/2010 at 10:12 PM, 58 Impala said:

I recently read an article about soldering brass photo etch in Fine Scale modeling, good article. Does anyone know if you can solder nickel photo etch?

Nickel shouldn't be a problem to solder. When I was a shipfitter in the Navy we soft soldered the drains in the stainless steam tables on the mess deck. Stainless has nickel and chromium in it.

[58 Impala]

Thanks for the info Gramps. I have some F1 photo etch and I wanted something stronger than epoxy.