Jairus Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Wow ! This thread has been really civil and well-mannered. Is Jairus on Vacation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggon Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 But, in the same breath that government at all levels tries to manage the cars we buy and drive, government also has allowed streets and roads to be built, and continue to exist that are simply dotted with hazards, from blind curves which often are cambered to the outside as opposed to being banked toward the inside, often slipshod paving, even the basic construction of them (all in the name of low bid contracting). Just this morning, I watched a semi tractor, with as long a wheelbase as I ever see in Indiana, try to make a right turn, from a 4-lane thoroughfare onto a two-lane one way uphill stretch of street, both of which were designed and constructed just 10 yrs ago, so tight in clearance that the driver wound up climbing the center island, the tandem wheels of the 53' trailer riding up and over the 8" curb at the corner, and BOTH of these routes are designated truck routes (the tractor trailer was making a delivery to the University where I work). As the design and engineering of this monsterpiece of infrastructure was done at INDOT in Indianapolis, I have to wonder just where the engineers involved got their Civil Engineering degrees--out of some cereal box? Perhpas a pack of ramen noodles? Well, regarding the infrastructure to that City-owned Waterpark, there are two large thouroughfares to the park, both filled with potholes and worn out or breaking up pavement. The city conveniently repaved the roads TO THE PARK. The return direction, especially by my house, was in much worse shape. It got nothing done to it. So how blatant was this? Get the patrons TO the park on a nice new highway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) Glad to see you're back on the job, Jairus. As for the squirrel........ Edited July 15, 2009 by Harold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmiccadillac Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 There goes the civility! So you are calling me a Hypocrite and a Dork. That's just wonderful now, isn't it. Where are your manners? We need to put the politeness back into politics. Screw the issues! Nothing will ever get done if we don't respect each other. We don't have to agree, we just have to be civil to each other. I haven't called you anything yet. All I did was state a fact. If you like the volt, good for you, thats your right to choose. BUT, if you're going to be a Greenpeace activist and shove all your false beliefs down my throat WHILE using polluting ways to get your message across, then YES you are a hypocrite enviro-dork and you need to get a real job and help the country progress. We've respected the evils for way too long and its getting out of hand, I think there might need to be some damage done to get the point across. Life is rough, get a helmet, strap yourself in, and hang on! Oh, and get a thicker skin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDO Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I haven't called you anything yet. All I did was state a fact. If you like the volt, good for you, thats your right to choose. BUT, if you're going to be a Greenpeace activist and shove all your false beliefs down my throat WHILE using polluting ways to get your message across, then YES you are a hypocrite enviro-dork and you need to get a real job and help the country progress. We've respected the evils for way too long and its getting out of hand, I think there might need to be some damage done to get the point across. Life is rough, get a helmet, strap yourself in, and hang on! Oh, and get a thicker skin Here's the thing: everyone on the planet does not share your point of view. Not everybody believed the "Hybrids pollute more than Hummers" story. Who would want a Chevy Volt? Someone who drives less than 40 miles a day and wants to do it without burning any gasoline. Is it the same person who would buy a Prius? Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to have a car that gets great mileage, but I'd choose a VW turbodiesel. Great mileage and no battery pack to wear out. No one is going to force a microcar down your throat. The CAFE standard is going up. That means the big three can still build gas guzzlers, but they'll have to build smaller, fuel-efficient cars as well. With the price of fuel climbing again, high-mpg cars may be just what Detroit needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmartin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I haven't called you anything yet. All I did was state a fact. If you like the volt, good for you, thats your right to choose. BUT, if you're going to be a Greenpeace activist and shove all your false beliefs down my throat WHILE using polluting ways to get your message across, then YES you are a hypocrite enviro-dork and you need to get a real job and help the country progress. We've respected the evils for way too long and its getting out of hand, I think there might need to be some damage done to get the point across. Life is rough, get a helmet, strap yourself in, and hang on! Oh, and get a thicker skin You seem to have a very simple view of things and if I understand your screed, you are advocating violence against those you disagree with. Life is a little bit more complicated than the view you seem to be grasping. I have never given money to any environmental group. I have a job - as a machinist. I think Hybrids are NOT the way to go and I believe we MUST change our polluting ways otherwise we will further ruin the environment we live in. It is about our self interest. I haven't shoved anything down anyone's throat and I challenge you to tell me what has actually been shoved down your throat. Facts are notoriously flexible and some of your facts are going to be in conflict with some of my facts. That is what Henry Ford was talking about when he said " History is Bunk". My skin is plenty thick but my desire to engage in a battle of wits with an uninformed man is very low. Have a nice day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Who would want a Chevy Volt? Someone who drives less than 40 miles a day and wants to do it without burning any gasoline. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish that goal. You could buy a Hyundai Excel or something similar, drive your "less than 40 miles a day" for years, and still be ahead, $$$ wise, ten years down the road vs. having bought a $40K Volt... and that includes the gas you'd have bought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish that goal. You could buy a Hyundai Excel or something similar, drive your "less than 40 miles a day" for years, and still be ahead, $$$ wise, ten years down the road vs. having bought a $40K Volt... and that includes the gas you'd have bought! The Volt will be a lot cleaner than a 20 yr old Hyundai (they haven't made the Excel in years), though. For $40k, though, I'd rather have something more upscale than the Volt, that's more in the CTS price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 The Volt will be a lot cleaner than a 20 yr old Hyundai (they haven't made the Excel in years), though. For $40k, though, I'd rather have something more upscale than the Volt, that's more in the CTS price range. Ok, Hyundai "whatever"... but you get my point. As far as the Volt being "cleaner" over a 10 year period... that depends entirely on how the electricity it runs on was generated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) Whether or not the Volt sells in mass quantities, the importance of it is to improve GM's public image. To a large portion of the public, GM is the builder of obese, gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, the company that 'Killed the electric car'. Toyota has the green image sewn up these days, Honda will probably make inroads w/ the new Insight. GM wants to improve their green image. The Volt is the anti-HUMMER. If the Volt can help improve GM's image, and GM is able to still make enthusiast-appealing cars like the Corvette, Camaro, CTS, etc, then that's progress... Edited July 16, 2009 by Rob Hall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 To a large portion of the public, GM is the builder of obese, gas guzzling trucks and SUVs... Yeah, that's the public perception all right... because it's true! And now, in an effort to show us how much they have changed and want to sell us the right vehicle for these economic times, they come up with a $40,000 hybrid that'll go a whopping 40 miles per charge??? Toyota and Honda must be laughing so hard that they're wetting their collective pants... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDO Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish that goal. You could buy a Hyundai Excel or something similar, drive your "less than 40 miles a day" for years, and still be ahead, $$$ wise, ten years down the road vs. having bought a $40K Volt... and that includes the gas you'd have bought! Different strokes for different folks. Why would a multi-millionaire drive a Prius? The one I know does it because he wants to. Perception is reality. Your perception...and reality...may be different than someone else's. I know, hard to believe. Just take my word for it. Some people...who may not be you...will want to buy a vehicle that goes 40 miles without using gasoline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Different strokes for different folks. Why would a multi-millionaire drive a Prius? The one I know does it because he wants to. Perception is reality. Your perception...and reality...may be different than someone else's. I know, hard to believe. Just take my word for it. Some people...who may not be you...will want to buy a vehicle that goes 40 miles without using gasoline. Sure, just like some people will see no problem with spending $400,000 on a Bentley. I get the concept of "different strokes"... I wasn't born yesterday. Yes, you're right, there are people who would buy a $40,000 hybrid... but how many??? My point is, if GM wants to get a foothold in the hybrid market and compete with the existing hybrids out there, if they want to be a player as far as the mass market goes, and carve out a new rep as a "greener" company, a $40,000 hybrid is a foolish way to get into the mix. You're shutting out a huge amount of potential buyers right off the bat with a price tag like that... especially when there are competitors available for a lot less money. GM needs to right the ship and start selling cars... lots of cars... to lots of people, not just appeal to a few well-off environmentalists. Given their current situation, they should be casting a much wider net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmiccadillac Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 You seem to have a very simple view of things and if I understand your screed, you are advocating violence against those you disagree with. Life is a little bit more complicated than the view you seem to be grasping. I have never given money to any environmental group. I have a job - as a machinist. I think Hybrids are NOT the way to go and I believe we MUST change our polluting ways otherwise we will further ruin the environment we live in. It is about our self interest. I haven't shoved anything down anyone's throat and I challenge you to tell me what has actually been shoved down your throat. Facts are notoriously flexible and some of your facts are going to be in conflict with some of my facts. That is what Henry Ford was talking about when he said " History is Bunk". My skin is plenty thick but my desire to engage in a battle of wits with an uninformed man is very low. Have a nice day! I don't think you're speaking my language... There was a big IF in my last post that you seemed to have missed, and IF you caught it you would see that I wasn't calling you any names, judging by what I now know about you. Also, the first post of mine you quoted wasn't even directed at you, so I don't see why you got all up in arms about it. For this reason, it seems to me that you are the uninformed one, not me... I could say something very insulting about your thick skin/battle of wits comment, but I don't think this should be a battle of wits, it's about bad decisions being made by our currently untrustworthy government. Please read my posts in full and understand them before you get so defensive, you'll see I'm not as bad a guy as you think. I think you were trying to be sarcastic with your "have a nice day" comment, but I return the kindness and wish you a nice day also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmartin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 But my point is, if GM wants to get a foothold in the hybrid market and compete with the existing hybrids out there, if they want to be a player as far as the mass market goes, and carve out a new rep as a "greener" company, a $40,000 hybrid is a foolish way to get into the mix. You're shutting out a huge amount of potential buyers right off the bat with a price tag like that... especially when there are competitors available for a lot less money. Honda is already producing a Hydrogen fuel cell car....now! They will leapfrog GM....again. The Volt is probably too little, too late and they are betting their future on it. Toyota and Honda and probably Ford will have plug-ins like the Volt within a year of the Volt coming out. If the Volt fails in the marketplace then GM is doomed for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmartin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) I think you were trying to be sarcastic with your "have a nice day" comment, but I return the kindness and wish you a nice day also! Thank you. Sometimes I am sarcastic. I think I was trying to be both sarcastic and friendly at the same time - if that makes any sense. I am sure you are a nice guy but the hypocrites and enviro-dorks comments are poor taste in my book, no matter where they are directed. They elicit defensiveness. If you look back at all but my previous post in this thread you will see I was only commenting on the quality of the discussion and not on any "issues" here. That is why I chose to make some comments on the name calling. Sincerely now. Have a nice evening! Edited July 16, 2009 by Modelmartin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmiccadillac Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Whether or not the Volt sells in mass quantities, the importance of it is to improve GM's public image. To a large portion of the public, GM is the builder of obese, gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, the company that 'Killed the electric car'. Toyota has the green image sewn up these days, Honda will probably make inroads w/ the new Insight. GM wants to improve their green image. The Volt is the anti-HUMMER. If the Volt can help improve GM's image, and GM is able to still make enthusiast-appealing cars like the Corvette, Camaro, CTS, etc, then that's progress... Image does not equal truth, but I won't try to convince you of that, it sounds like you're convinced that it is and nothing will change your mind. Oh, and by the way, who REALLY killed the electric car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Honda is already producing a Hydrogen fuel cell car....now! They will leapfrog GM....again. The Volt is probably too little, too late and they are betting their future on it. Exactly so. GM's hybrid program today is where Honda's and Toyota's were... 15 years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Different strokes for different folks. Why would a multi-millionaire drive a Prius? The one I know does it because he wants to. Perception is reality. Your perception...and reality...may be different than someone else's. I know, hard to believe. Just take my word for it. Some people...who may not be you...will want to buy a vehicle that goes 40 miles without using gasoline. Yes, there will be buyers for it. The price point is a concern, though... $40k for a...Chevy compact? That's a bit steep. The Prius has the image and mileage, but it's also cheap, so a wide range of people buy them--from normal folks to celebrities. The price limits the Volt's impact. If GM could build it for $30k, I could see it being more successful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Image does not equal truth, but I won't try to convince you of that, it sounds like you're convinced that it is and nothing will change your mind. Oh, and by the way, who REALLY killed the electric car? Image is as important or more so than truth in selling consumer products like a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmartin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Oh, and by the way, who REALLY killed the electric car? The marketplace! Remember that until maybe 1905 or so it wasn't certain whether gas, electric or steam would win out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 That's right... the marketplace! Which is exactly how GM's fate should have been decided... by the marketplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmiccadillac Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Image is as important or more so than truth in selling consumer products like a car. This may be so, but it doesn't mean its right. Too much of what goes on now is more about image than truth. I guess thats what I've been trying to get at with my last few posts. Mainstream media is corrupt and biased, Hollywood is biased and conjures up images of what they think you should accept as truth. Schools are biased, some more than others. Do you know how brainwashing works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guiwee Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 That's right... the marketplace! Which is exactly how GM's fate should have been decided... by the marketplace. As someone who works in the industry(chrysler).I have a slightly different perspective. Personally I think its GMs mangement team... all the big three management fault. As a member of that group they should have seen all these problems years and years ago But no IF you ask me they ran them into the ground.They could have looked at the trends in the 80s 90s whenever. They have been losing marketshare for years. But do they make changes NO..oh sure they hire a new vp or director of sales or something.But in essence these bigwigs get in power and leave with "packages" and bonuses and !@#$. Theyre like coaches they just get recycled. The germans came in brought chrysler....robbed it blind then sold it off...totally uncool Personally I think there needs to be some sort of regulation against how many imports can be allowed in the country. Other countries do us like that whats wrong with if i sell you 2 million you buy 2 million(lol) But when you have former big 3 executives lobbying on behalf of the imports its kinda hard.Hell we taught them how to build cars. They said thanks and learned what NOT to do. Plus the whole asian mindset and mentality is so different from americans. America is becoming a nation of consumers and not producers. Its always sad when a giant of the industry is in trouble. Same thing about Boeing the world got mad at the greedy americans putting their aircraft manufacturers out of business. They couldnt compete with boeing so they all ganged up and made airbus. Which to me just goes to show you no one likes a BIG DOG when it comes to nations.Gotta try to swipe at ther legs every now and then. I think im rambling now Ill stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guiwee Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 This may be so, but it doesn't mean its right. Too much of what goes on now is more about image than truth. I guess thats what I've been trying to get at with my last few posts. Mainstream media is corrupt and biased, Hollywood is biased and conjures up images of what they think you should accept as truth. Schools are biased, some more than others. Do you know how brainwashing works? I totally agree with you on that subject. The media is much too powerful now. Gone are the days of real reporting.Now its about what sells the most, If boeing blows an engine on an airplane people think the airplane is unsafe..a deathtrap no one says Hey Boeing doesnt even make engines.only airplanes...Thats pratt and whitneys fault. Its all about style over substance. In my honest opinion America is going the way of rome(lol) The parrellels are astonishing(lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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