Question for you urethane painters

[Fuel Coupe]

Ok Guys, I have been contemplating stepping into the urethane world for a while and with the recent destruction of my 1st attempt at clearing my saddleback car I just dont want to deal with it again. I have always shot HoK lacquers over my slixx decals with no ill affects but recently I have been having hell with them cracking and just not lying right under the clear. I have talked with Slixx a few times about it and We came to the conclusion that it might be their process or my heavy handed painting style. In other words no real answer. SO I have been looking at Urethane and man its not cheap. Im looking at over $100 to buy in albeit that would be probably a one time purchase as a gallon of clear would last forever.

So I found this on line and found a supplier here in my small town that carried it. Still not cheap at $20 for a single use can of urethane. Has anyone used this stuff in can form and what were your results. this is a one time buy as if I like it I will invest in a three part system that Nitrojunkie has been talking to me about. any tips secrets except using a respirator. thanks for the help...

[nitrojunkie]

Here is what I use most of the time.Don't buy a gallon of clear you probably will never use it and it will go bad.I can clear a car with a little over 1/8th oz of reduced clear with that said a quart will do in excess of 200 1/25th scale cars.You have to use an airbrush.I have never seen the stuff in the spray can and can't comment about it.The SG-100 is an intercoat clear that you can mix Kandies in for a true kandy finish,it is also what you use to seal the marbelizer if you choose to play with marbelizing like my Honda and Minicooper in my Photobucket stuff.You must use a respirator if you use these clears they are nasty and are are bad for you but in small amounts used with a spray booth vented outside or in a garage or shed with an open window and fan running you should be fine.Ive used this stuff for over 10 years and used to spray it professionally on a daily basis.

Whats in the picture? SG-100 intercoat clear used for,an intermediate clear to be applied over pearl or metallic basecoats so you can tape on it and not leave tape tracks in the base coat.You can also mix it per the instructions and add any of the Kandy Concentrates to it to make Kandies they are between the 2 qt cans.The RU-311 is the reducer it is used in all of the urethane HOK products that need reducing SG-100 mixes 1:1 with RU-311 then add KK's or dry pearls these are in the small jars;yes they are true pearls and will go thru an airbrush. The six taller bottles are 6 of the 12 base colors that are recomended by HOK for use under their Kandies.They offer 12 Base coats and 20 kandies this alone can give you 240 colors and then you can intermix to tint base coats etc.

The clear is a 2 part when used on full size stuff that is in the weather.For our purposes I mix it as specified and reduce an additional 20-25%with an MR reducer usually mid temp.I mix my clear in graduated medicine cups graduated in drams or 1/8th oz.I usually mix 1/2 oz and try to clear 2 to 3 projects at a time as once mixed what you don't spray has to be thrown out. (You Cannot Return It To the Can) It will ruin that container of material.

It is alot to take in you can get the HOK Tech Book here. http://www.houseofkolor.com/PDF/TechData/E...HOK_TechMan.pdf

Hope this answers some questions for those interested.This has been known to be a touchy subject to some people I am simply providing info based on my experiences and discussion with the reps of these products.All paint products are hazardous whether they are urethane,Lacquer or waterbourn they all can and do harm your lungs and a minimum of a respirator should be worn and protective gloves are not a bad idea when mixing clears.

Edited July 13, 2009 by nitrojunkie

[Fuel Coupe]

Thanks Ernest, I looked at your album and you are correct, your finishes are not heavy at all. Have you shot this paint over slixx ( I think you may have answered this in a PM to me )

I went on a search today And could not find any urethane clears in quarts except at sherwin williams (which I know NOTHING About). There is a TASCO here that carries primarily PPG and HoK and I use that on my 1:1 cars (just not urethane)

I will ask about omni by the quart and see what they can come up with. The gallon with reducer was over $100 which more than I need and as you said will go bad before I use it all....

Edited July 13, 2009 by TxRat

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

I have never used what you show here, but if it's really a urethane base coating, you need to wear a respirator type mask. Urethane's use an isocyanate in the catalyst that's nasty and very un-healthy for your lungs. I've sprayed a lot of it on cycles and cars. As for the cost of a gal. If you have a Morgans auto parts store near you go there and see if they have what is called econo clear. It comes in qrt. cans and has a small tin of catalyst for a qrt. for about 30 bucks. What I have done to spray it on models is mix it and add some lacquere thinner to thin it a bit and spray it at about 60 lbs pressure. The reason for the high pressure is to atomize the droplets smaller since urethanes are generaly thicker coatings. Give it 2 or 3 light coats and it should level and smooth out in a few seconds. Works great and is a very high gloss finish.

Hope this answers what you need to know.

PS. I just looked and the econo clear is a NAPA product. Any NAPA store should have it.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Gramps-xrds

[Fuel Coupe]

Thanks Gramps. YES I am aware of wearing a respirator, I made mention of it in my first post . Yes what I bought is a true urethane, It has a inner cavity in the can that must be pierced to mix the reducer with the clear and has a pot life of 24 hours. AGAIN this is a one time try as I plan to move over to urethane if it doesn't mangle decals. No Morgans around here. I figured not many have used this, its primarily a trial by fire for me to see if I like it or not....

[Fuel Coupe]

PS. I just looked and the econo clear is a NAPA product. Any NAPA store should have it.

Ahh NAPA here does have it. I was there today but they had only one guy there that knew about the paints and he was at lunch. It was only available in 1 gal that I could see...

[nitrojunkie]

Yes there is a clear called Econo body that one of the members in my club has had good results with also.I have edited my earlier post to include some safety info also.Thanks for looking.

[Fuel Coupe]

Yes there is a clear called Econo body that one of the members in my club has had good results with also.I have edited my earlier post to include some safety info also.Thanks for looking.

Thanks Nitro, I don't expect this to get nasty as I'm asking about switching to urethanes. If folks want to be close minded about it start another thread and stay out of this one

[nitrojunkie]

Thanks Nitro, I don't expect this to get nasty as I'm asking about switching to urethanes. If folks want to be close minded about it start another thread and stay out of this one

I agree totally glad to see this attitude here.Thankyou so much.Kinda like TV or radio ifin you don't like whats on change the station .Here is another link to see what all House Of Kolor offers you may find a clear here also.These are great folks to deal with they really know their stuff. http://www.coastairbrush.com/HouseOfKolor.asp

Edited July 13, 2009 by nitrojunkie

[E St. Kruiser50]

...... it might be my heavy handed painting style.

I'm not aware of your painting skills, but if this quote of yours is true, you'll be wasting your money.

No problem with painting style will ever be fixed by a different kind of paint.

A little advise from a LONG TIME PAINTER, including real cars.

Learning to paint is a process that starts very simply, and as you get proficient at the basics, you begin to move up into the more difficult area's. A lot of guys start using Testors or Tamiya usually with enamels or lacquers. Those are usually rattlecans and you need to get REALLY GOOD with all the different brands of rattlecan primers and paints, including the clears.

The next step is airbrushing these same kind of paints and being, very, very skilled with all the different techniques, before ever attempting urethane.

If you think lacquers, especially just a clear is difficult, you'll be over-whelmed with urethanes.

It's a whole different world of paint, needed skills, and knowledge.

If you can't make lacquer work, I wouldn't jump into urethanes.

Nothing guarantees the urethane will work any better anyway. Without the proper knowledge and skills, you could end up right where you are now, only a lot broker, and a lot more frustrated.

If it were me, I'd figure out the problem, and try several different clear lacquers, before jumping from the frying pan into the "FIRE".

Always shot 3 coats - LIGHT, MEDIUM, AND HEAVY, whether it's color or clear, AND NEVER EVER SHOOT HEAVY HANDED .

NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU SHOOT THE CAR, IT'S ALWAYS LIGHT, MEDIUM, HEAVY.

YOU CAN DO THIS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT, BUT IT'S ALWAYS LIGHT, MEDIUM, AND HEAVY.

Here's the clear lacquer I use #349 from auto parts stores.

I ALWAYS SHOOT IT LIGHT, MEDIUM, AND HEAVY, just like every car painter will tell you, just like all the painting articles will tell you, and just like it say's on the rattlecan instructions .

If you can, buy a quart can system. A gallon will go bad WAY before you use up a quart and so will the catylist.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Treehugger Dave

[nitrojunkie]

I have to admit I have recently bought a quart of the Duplicolor Paint shop lacquer and so far have had no problems with it but I have only used it on chassis parts and to seal mtealizers.Due to having to mix 1/2 oz of urethane clear at a time.I do agree with the light coat,medium,coat and full wet or flow coat.When I shot my SLR I used Cobra colors products.It turned out ok but took 2 weeks to paint and then I had cure time with the urethane in 24 hrs its cured wetsanded and polished.You will need to work with with any new product and get used to it and above all you have to have a good knowledge of your airbrush and its spray pattern.You need to know that at X distance from surface being painted I have a spray pattern that is X in dia.This is critical when shooting kandies and pearls to eliminate streaking or striping aka "Tiger stripes".

Dave is right the catylist will go bad before the clear and is the most expensive of the 2.I store mine in my model room where it is climate controlled and low humidity as the humidity is what causes the catylist to seed.Micro mart sells a can of nitrogen for dispensing into paint to add a protective barrier this should help I don't use it but when I painted for a living I used a P-Mix system and kept 50 plus gallons in the catylist container at all times and always added a nitrogen blanket after the container had been opened.I have sprayed as much as 20 gallons of urethane paints in an 8 hr shift this was me and one other guy.We shot 2 to 3 colors every night sometimes more.

Edited July 13, 2009 by nitrojunkie

[Fletch]

Shane, there is no way you would ever need to buy a gallon of urethane clear. I buy Omni which is an off brand from PPG it comes in quart cans. The Omni Clear plus a 1/2 pint of reducer/catalyst comes to around $35. The ratio of clear to reducer is 4-1 then I cut it 1-1 with standard hardware store lacquer thinner. I have not had a single problem with clear coating anything since switching over to the Urethane Clear 4 years ago.

In the long run price for price Clear Lacquer to Urethane Clear the urethane is less expensive and a lot more user friendly. Just make sure you TOTALLY clean your air brush after shooting Catalyzed Urethane or you'll get to buy a new air brush.

[nitrojunkie]

Shane, there is no way you would ever need to buy a gallon of urethane clear. I buy Omni which is an off brand from PPG it comes in quart cans. The Omni Clear plus a 1/2 pint of reducer/catalyst comes to around $35. The ratio of clear to reducer is 4-1 then I cut it 1-1 with standard hardware store lacquer thinner. I have not had a single problem with clear coating anything since switching over to the Urethane Clear 4 years ago.

In the long run price for price Clear Lacquer to Urethane Clear the urethane is less expensive and a lot more user friendly. Just make sure you TOTALLY clean your air brush after shooting Catalyzed Urethane or you'll get to buy a new air brush.

A-Men Brother!!!!!I havent done it but had a buddy almost kill a full size spray gun for not cleaning properly after clearing .At the time it was'nt funny but looking back now it was hillarious.

[Fuel Coupe]

Thanks Guys,

Tree Hugger I have had great luck with HoK paints.

Its just recently That I'm having issues with HoK's eating the decals. Thought this might be a good time try something new...

Not my first rodeo...

[E St. Kruiser50]

Thanks Guys,

Tree Hugger

Not my first rodeo...

Well keep us up to speed on what you do. I'll keep watching and see what works for ya. I can always learn something new too.

[Fuel Coupe]

Well keep us up to speed on what you do. I'll keep watching and see what works for ya. I can always learn something new too.

HAHA no problem. I'm really like you said, just trying to progress and it seems like a good time to try something new. I don't know what will happen but it cant get any worse right

[Tommy Kortman]

Tx,

While I cant give you any more tips than the excellent ones you already recieved in this thread. I would like to add that you do NOT skimp when it comes to the respirator. The 3 part (clear, thinner, hardner) is nasty stuff. I bought U-tek Clear (cleap stuff about $35.00 per gal), but I probably spent double that on the respirator. Along with the mask, and gloves, I also wear a long sleeve shirt when I'm shooting this stuff. It can be absorbed throught the skin.

ALWAYS PROTECT YOURSELF!!!

[E St. Kruiser50]

Tx,

While I cant give you any more tips than the excellent ones you already recieved in this thread. I would like to add that you do NOT skimp when it comes to the respirator. The 3 part (clear, thinner, hardner) is nasty stuff. I bought U-tek Clear (cleap stuff about $35.00 per gal), but I probably spent double that on the respirator. Along with the mask, and gloves, I also wear a long sleeve shirt when I'm shooting this stuff. It can be absorbed throught the skin.

ALWAYS PROTECT YOURSELF!!!

Here's mine

[Fuel Coupe]

OK guys, I said before I HAVE RESPIRATORY PROTECTION. I work for the worlds largest oil, gas and chemical co. I have in my possession the absolute top of the line 3m brand full and half face models with access to as many organic/chemical and HEPA combination filters I can carry home (which by the way should be replaced after each use in an 8 hr day by TWA usage (not by breakthrough alone). By OSHA requirements I have to be specially fitted for ANNUALLY. Not one that you just go to the paint house and buy. IT IS CUSTOM FITTED TO MY FAT FACE...

These are all at my disposal. The top left one is the same full face model I have in my possession. The one below it is the half face I have.

kapish

BTW How long have those filters been out of the package there treehugger

I also Have access to tyvek chemical suits if I need them...

Edited July 14, 2009 by TxRat

[Fuel Coupe]

What I'm saying here guys is the components and compound that make up this paint I make. so I am well aware of the dangers involved. Please lets not let this deteriorate into an OSHA subject. I just want to know how this stuff sprays and if there are any tips to to it. and if anyone has used it in can form before I purchase the paint in qts. THANKS!!!

[Fuel Coupe]

Thanks for all the info guys. One thing I would like to know Treehugger is if that is the gun you use to spray with or is it just a primer gun.

Edited July 14, 2009 by TxRat

[Fletch]

Shane, I mix in the ratio noted above, I dial down the compressor to 15-20psi to shoot the Urethane Clear. For cleaning purposes I strip the air brush down as far as it can go then clean everything in Lacquer thinner.

I use a Paasche VL-1 with a #1 needle and seat, which is replaced at least once a year. And yes I use a full face respirator as has been noted spraying Urethane can be nasty stuff.

[Fuel Coupe]

Shane, I mix in the ratio noted above, I dial down the compressor to 15-20psi to shoot the Urethane Clear. For cleaning purposes I strip the air brush down as far as it can go then clean everything in Lacquer thinner.

I use a Paasche VL-1 with a #1 needle and seat, which is replaced at least once a year. And yes I use a full face respirator as has been noted spraying Urethane can be nasty stuff.

Thank you Fletch.

One question though. I have been told to spray at much higher pressure 50-60 psi. how are you getting it to spray at 15-20 psi

Edited July 14, 2009 by TxRat

[Fletch]

Thank you Fletch.

One question though. I have been told to spray at much higher pressure 50-60 psi. how are you getting it to spray at 15-20 psi

Most likely by cutting the Urethane Clear/Catalyst mix by aprox 50% with lacquer thinner. There was a bit of trepidation the first time I introduced the lacquer thinner to the clear/catalyst mixture as you don't know what to expect. For all I knew it could have hardened instantly in the bottle.

One of the things with Omni urethane clear, the jobber I buy it from says it doesn't require any thinner, it is thinner then the PPG product that I use to use. However, the PPG Urethane Clear/Catalyst mix requires PPG thinner and the price jumps dramatically. With the PPG urethane Clear you end up buying the clear, the catalyst, and the thinner/reducer. You also have to decide what "Temperature" you want the reducer, Low, Medium, or Hot. The last time I ordered the PPG product it was $176 for the same thing I got in Omni for under $35. Being that Onmi and PPG are produced by the same company, I'm ok with a $35 product vs pretty much the same thing for $176.

These 3 were clear coated using the Omni Urethane Clear:

Hosted on Fotki

[nitrojunkie]

Hey guys I used to use a small touch up gun like the one shown above.I have since bought an IWATA Eclipse HP-CS airbrush and that is all I use for models unless I'm doing a large scale or need to shoot flake.It will handle pearls good and probably HOK's miniflakes.