Safety Alert About Methylene Chloride Use

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

I just read a post about ppl using methylene chloride for plastic glue. Yes it will glue plastic, but before you start doing it you better know something about it or do some research. I worked 29 yrs in a chemical plant that had large storage tanks full of it and other hazardous solvents. Trust me when I tell you it's not good for you and I sure as h=ll wouldn't be smoking around it or burning it in any way. Methylene Chloride (MECL2) when burned combines w/ carbon and makes (cocl2) phosgene gas. you say "so what". Well cocl2 when inhaled combines w/ the water in your lungs and makes (HCL) hydrocloric acid. What ends up happening is you can drown in your own fluids. And it'll scar the lungs and do permenent lung damage if it doesn't kill you.

There's other effects of just mecl2 alone like uphoria, headaches and the bloods lack of ability to carry oxegen. I'm sure there are other things that I can't remember off hand. Do the research.

Pay attention stupid. I'm talking to you.

[CAL]

I just read a post about ppl using methylene chloride for plastic glue. Yes it will glue plastic, but before you start doing it you better know something about it or do some research. I worked 29 yrs in a chemical plant that had large storage tanks full of it and other hazardous solvents. Trust me when I tell you it's not good for you and I sure as h=ll wouldn't be smoking around it or burning it in any way. Methylene Chloride (MECL2) when burned combines w/ carbon and makes (cocl2) phosgene gas. you say "so what". Well cocl2 when inhaled combines w/ the water in your lungs and makes (HCL) hydrocloric acid. What ends up happening is you can drown in your own fluids. And it'll scar the lungs and do permenent lung damage if it doesn't kill you.

There's other effects of just mecl2 alone like uphoria, headaches and the bloods lack of ability to carry oxegen. I'm sure there are other things that I can't remember off hand. Do the research.

Pay attention stupid. I'm talking to you.

So what are you using?

[PatRedmond]

Thanks, Bill.

I'm going to hope everyone reads the labels on ANY chemicals they use and act accordingly.

They don't write that stuff on there for nothing......

[lordairgtar]

I cannot believe with the availability of cements and glues out there that someone would obtain such a hazardous chemical to work with. Wasn't phosgene gas used in war as a chemical agent to kill?

[CAL]

I cannot believe with the availability of cements and glues out there that someone would obtain such a hazardous chemical to work with. Wasn't phosgene gas used in war as a chemical agent to kill?

Yes, but the only way get phosgene gas from Methylene Chloride is to decompose it with heat 400-500 degree and will ingnite at just over that. I would have to say if that happens you have more serious problems than phosgene gas.

Overall it is considered to be one of if not the safest welder type cements.

So unless you are using Elmers white glue there is no perfectly safe answer to assembling a plastic model.

[Fuel Coupe]

I too work in the chemical industry Gramps so I am knowledged in some pretty nasty chemicals out there.

If tenax was made from methylene chloride that is probably the main reason it was pulled from the market.

Not trying to split hairs with you here but I'm pretty sure there aren't too many glues available to us that don't have some type of ill effects both long and short term....

even the non toxic "blue tube" is flammable...

Again no harm just sayin...

Thanks for bringing this up though as with any solvents etc. they should be handled correctly and more importantly, with respect....

Edited December 30, 2009 by TxRat

[CB]

Never thought I'd be saying this here, but God bless you Gramps! Guess you's an ok guy afterall .

Seriously Bill, thanks fer sharing this. I put 33 years in a steel mill. Worked as a bearing repairman in the roll shop where we serviced the rolling mills and bearings. Used to use live steam mixed with some nasty acid type degreasers and you could just feel it destroying your lungs & sinuses whenever anybody used 'the steamer' (kinda like a self service car wash). The company finally had to deal with some of them hazardous chemicals they were pumping into us, and along the way we got us some more even nastier ones. I got involved with the safety committee and writing safe job procedures, etc. Big help when we got 'MSDS's--Material Safety Data Sheets-- which listed all the stuff that was in whatever came in the doors. Lists all the hazardous chemicals and what kind of personal protection device you could wear when using it. Kinda natural to think of hazardous stuffs in places like that where we used to work, but I guess we need to be aware of any possible hazards with any of the glues, paints, etc what we use in our hobbies as well.

Once again, way to go Gramps! Thanks

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

Cal, I use testors black bottle liquid glue. It's xylene based and it's really not good for you either, but it's in a gell and doesn't give off fumes as easily.

Yes phosgene was used as a chemical war agent, but was outlawed.

[CAL]

Cal, I use testors black bottle liquid glue. It's xylene based and it's really not good for you either, but it's in a gell and doesn't give off fumes as easily.

Yes phosgene was used as a chemical war agent, but was outlawed.

I like that stuff too.

But realistically the likelyhood of making phosgene gas with MC is very low, perhaps not as dangerous, if you did the same thing with Testors : decomposition with heat you make carbon monoxide, which will also kill you. Again if you have a condition where there is 500 degrees where you are building models you have a much more serious issue.

FWIW the Testors stuff has a much lower flash point and more likely to catch fire than MC.

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

Yes, but the only way get phosgene gas from Methylene Chloride is to decompose it with heat 400-500 degree and will ingnite at just over that. I would have to say if that happens you have more serious problems than phosgene gas.

Overall it is considered to be one of if not the safest welder type cements.

So unless you are using Elmers white glue there is no perfectly safe answer to assembling a plastic model.

Cal I hate to but a damper on what you said, but that's not quite true. You can make phosgene at a much lower temperature. If you soak a piece of paper in it and let it evaporate and burn the paper, the residue left on the paper will still make cocl2. Believe me, I've done it. Also smoking a cigarette in the mecl2 vapor wil be enough to make small amounts of cocl2 in the cigarette. But you do what you think is best for you.

[CAL]

I too work in the chemical industry Gramps so I am knowledged in some pretty nasty chemicals out there.

If tenax was made from methylene chloride that is probably the main reason it was pulled from the market.

Not trying to split hairs with you here but I'm pretty sure there aren't too many glues available to us that don't have some type of ill effects both long and short term....

even the non toxic "blue tube" is flammable...

Again no harm just sayin...

Thanks for bringing this up though as with any solvents etc. they should be handled correctly and more importantly, with respect....

I am not sure that is why becasue you can still readily obtaine Methylene Chloride.

They were probably just not making any money selling. I am not sure what else they were doing to stay in business but just selling Tenax wasn't probably keeping them afloat.

[Eshaver]

Bill, thanks for the heads up. I worked in both the Body and Fender reapair industry and the Graphic -arts industry for years . Today , I have Emphazemiea. I can't imagine why ............. Heck we used to soak silk scrrens down with a combination of Clorine bleack and Methyl Ethyl Keytone . Xolol and Touulene wew used in the humidity of summer days here . With Body and fender , shoot I have lungs now filled with Laquer thinner and plastic body filler , Talc Powder !!! Oh well live an learn . Ed Shaver

[CAL]

Cal I hate to but a damper on what you said, but that's not quite true. You can make phosgene at a much lower temperature. If you soak a piece of paper in it and let it evaporate and burn the paper, the residue left on the paper will still make cocl2. Believe me, I've done it. Also smoking a cigarette in the mecl2 vapor wil be enough to make small amounts of cocl2 in the cigarette. But you do what you think is best for you.

What?

What residue. MC is an organic compound, which means you would have to have some chemical reaction to have a residue. If all the MC evaporates then there is nothing left, so that doesn't make sense really. And no you can't really change chemistry or physics. The stuff decomposes at 400-500 degrees, you can't get it to produce gas at a lower temp. It is just not possible.

In any event, it sounds like you have to pretty much intentionlly make posion gas from MC.

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

What?

What residue. MC is an organic compound, which means you would have to have some chemical reaction to have a residue. If all the MC evaporates then there is nothing left, so that doesn't make sense really. And no you can't really change chemistry or physics. The stuff decomposes at 400-500 degrees, you can't get it to produce gas at a lower temp. It is just not possible.

In any event, it sounds like you have to pretty much intentionlly make posion gas from MC.

Cal I'm not going argue with you, but if you don't believe there's still residue left, try it. You might learn something new.

You believe what you want and I'll believe what I've done. And mecl2 also has been known to be a carcinogen. Although there's no mention of it, but we got a paper on it yrs ago that stated a man who was using paint stripper in a closed area w/ mecl2 had a heart attack. Nothing was thought about it till after his recovery when he went back to stripping again and immediately had another. It was suspected that the mecl2 was the cause. But I've never heard any more about that.

[CAL]

Cal I'm not going argue with you, but if you don't believe there's still residue left, try it. You might learn something new.

You believe what you want and I'll believe what I've done. And mecl2 also has been known to be a carcinogen. Although there's no mention of it, but we got a paper on it yrs ago that stated a man who was using paint stripper in a closed area w/ mecl2 had a heart attack. Nothing was thought about it till after his recovery when he went back to stripping again and immediately had another. It was suspected that the mecl2 was the cause. But I've never heard any more about that.

I don't want to try to kill my self...

I had two years of college chemistry so I kind of know what is and isn't possible at a basic level. It wouldn't be a residue that is left it would be actual Mec12 that absorbed into the wood.

There was guy who was actually killed by MC in paint stripper but it was repeate exposure in the closed area with a portable heater over an 8 month peirod. So it can happen, but that was with a whole lot of paint stripper in a room with little or no ventilation and with a portable heater over an 8 month period. It was pretty much confirmed that it was phosgene gas that did that fellow in.

You have just as much change of getting carbon monoxide poisoning from you Testors glue as you would getting phosgene poisoning from Tenax.

You probably have greater odds of a landing gear fall off a airplane - crashing through your roof and landing on you killing you dead.

[jeffb]

oh great..another thing to worry sbout..i live in the flight path to detroit metro airport..

[CAL]

oh great..another thing to worry sbout..i live in the flight path to detroit metro airport..

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

I had two years of college chemistry so I kind of know what is and isn't possible at a basic level. It wouldn't be a residue that is left it would be actual Mec12 that absorbed into the wood.

Unfortunately I was a high school dropout, but I did have 29 yrs experience working w/ and around this stuff as mechanic and hobbies like sign painting/airbrush artist/auto body/custom painting and others I don't even remember. I used to try all kinds of solvents and chemicals with the lacquer I painted murals with. If you can name it I've probably tried it.

[Dragline]

Repeated exposure [covered here] is indeed the problem with MC. Also, no matter where it's absorbed, it gets processed by the liver. In time liver failure is the result as well as other complications.

Bob

[CAL]

I had two years of college chemistry so I kind of know what is and isn't possible at a basic level. It wouldn't be a residue that is left it would be actual Mec12 that absorbed into the wood.

Unfortunately I was a high school dropout, but I did have 29 yrs experience working w/ and around this stuff as mechanic and hobbies like sign painting/airbrush artist/auto body/custom painting and others I don't even remember. I used to try all kinds of solvents and chemicals with the lacquer I painted murals with. If you can name it I've probably tried it.

Me too, I like experimenting around with stuff.

I shot artist tube oil out of my airbrush. I am also a big glue guy, I have maybe 40-50 different glues in my cabinet right now. I can say mostly they don't work or do what they are supposed to do, but the best stuff is always the most toxic.

rubber cement... great stuff but just opening the can greatly increases your risk of blowing up your house.

[Terry Jessee]

The minute amounts we use to build models probably are not going to constitute much of a threat--more than just about any other adhesive used to glue plastic parts together.

Oh, and by the way, be real careful not to spill cyanoacrylate (super glue) on your jeans. In bottle-size quantities, it heats up immediately and can cause serious burns.

I already have malignant melanoma from sun exposure over that last 58 years. Guess I'll go worry about something else.

Everything is harmful.

Terry

[CAL]

Repeated exposure [covered here] is indeed the problem with MC. Also, no matter where it's absorbed, it gets processed by the liver. In time liver failure is the result as well as other complications.

Bob

That is pretty much everything petrolium based.

[crazyjim]

If you look at the other post about IPS Weld-On, you'll see that I've sent an email to Evergreen Plastics requesting an adhesive recommendation (IPS Weld-On #3, #4, #4807, Ambroid or other).

[Fuel Coupe]

I am not sure that is why becasue you can still readily obtaine Methylene Chloride.

They were probably just not making any money selling. I am not sure what else they were doing to stay in business but just selling Tenax wasn't probably keeping them afloat.

depending on the size of the company and the amount of liability ins. it would take to handle this chemical in large quantities. Yes I would say this would be one of the reasons they could have closed their doors.....

[Guest Gramps-xrds]

I shot artist tube oil out of my airbrush. I am also a big glue guy, I have maybe 40-50 different glues in my cabinet right now. I can say mostly they don't work or do what they are supposed to do, but the best stuff is always the most toxic.

Artist oils work very well in an airbrush. I've done that too. Their high pigmentation makes them cover and blend great. The downside is, they take forever to dry. Lacquers on the other hand dry instantly, so you don't have worry about smearing them or getting finger prints in it. I used to go to the local genuine parts store and the lady that worked there was a long time friend and neighbor. She would make me pure dupont mixing pigment w/ a binder added to use for my murals. You could thin them at least 300% or more and still get coverage. I don't have many pix of the stuff I used to do and I can't show most of them here anyway lol but here's a link to what you can do w/ lacquer and artist acrylics

http://s110.photobuc...rds/art%20work/