Tommy Kortman Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 ESPN is reporting that a female spectator was killed at Firebird Raceway in Pheonix during the first round of Top-Fuel eliminations today. Apparently when Antron Brown crashed, one of his rear tires flew into the crowd. Initial reports from other sites say that the woman was walking behind the grandstands when she was stuck. She may have been pushing someone else in a wheel chair, and never saw the tire coming. One site says she was killed instantly, while another report says she was delcared dead at the hospital. My thoughts and prayers go out to her and her family. This is truly a sad day in American motorsports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 (edited) That's a shame it happened, but as my Dad always says, "When it's your time to go, it's your time to go and there's nothing you can do about it." Edited February 22, 2010 by Joe Handley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW Dave Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I agree, it's a sad day; I don't pray very often, but today my prayers go out to her and her loved ones....also to those who did whatever they could to help. One site says she was killed instantly, while another report says she was delcared dead at the hospital. Both accounts may be right. She may have been killed instantly, but the responding paramedics may not have been allowed to make the declaration; I'm sure they did everything they could en route to the hospital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 The wheel came off first causing the crash, and then said wheel continued on, killing the woman. So it looks like it was some kind of wheel mounting failure or was improperly attached. I agree both could be correct. She was probably killed instantly but the official declaration came at the hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Kortman Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 They'll never make that declaration at the track! It will always be "en route" or "at the hospital" (and there's a reason for it...............and no I ain't gonna tell either!) But yes it is a sad day indeed. Paul Yea, I remember when Scott Kalitta was killed at E-town. I have a buddy who was working on the tracks fire crew that day, and he had said something about that sort of thing as well. I just cant now remember what it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fstfish66 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Yea, I remember when Scott Kalitta was killed at E-town. I have a buddy who was working on the tracks fire crew that day, and he had said something about that sort of thing as well. I just cant now remember what it was. AT FIRST, NHRA said a woman from a nastalgic funny car team was hit by flying debrie,,then all of a sudden it was an unknown woman,,yes another sad day in my favorite sport,,but NHRA reported as of monday the day of the final round,there are companies right now devloping a system to hold the rim on the car,if the lugs ever get sheared off again,,,,sad thing that these thing dont get thought of before some one gets hurt or killed,,darrell russel,,eric medlen,,,scott kalettta,ETC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMc Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 sad thing that these thing dont get thought of before some one gets hurt or killed,,darrell russel,,eric medlen,,,scott kalettta,ETC Thats quite a tall statement...seeing as how it is a first...only safe way to race is not to race...I'd rather die at a race than on the bathroom floor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) Thats quite a tall statement...seeing as how it is a first...only safe way to race is not to race...I'd rather die at a race than on the bathroom floor! However, statistically, that exactly where you are likeliest to die: the bathroom. It's not that tall of an order. The problem with NHRA and Nascar is they take a more reactive approach to safety. They wait for it to happen and then try to find a fix, unlike F1 which takes a more more proactive approach. There hasn't been a F1 death since Ayrton Senna da Silva almost two decades ago. Edited February 23, 2010 by CAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Not to say that F1 doesn't take saftey seriously because they clearly do. However, that's not exactly a fair comparison...look how small the grid is for F1, and the small number of races, and total laps, annually...you'd expect less of everything, including crashes overall, injuries, and fatalities just from that. Henry Surtees died just last year in Formula 2...again, FIA racing is very safe overall, but you can't look only at F1 and compare it to all of NASCAR or NHRA racing. They're just on different scales in terms of participants and events. I was just looking at the top level classes, because there were many lower level fatilities 52 last year alone in lower rank car related motor sports accidents, not counting motorcycles, boats, and truck events. NASCAR WCC NHRA WC CART IRL has had significantly more fatalities than F1 at there top level world champ events. I am not saying that NASCAR or NHRA don't take it seriously, they are just more reactive than proactive. We ran a TAFC where I used to work and every year the safety revisions were becasue of somebody getting injured or killed, there was never a safety revision because NHRA saw a potential problem and stopped it before someone was injured or killed. And a lot of times "that's racing" attitude prevailed and no safety revision were made even when there clearly should have been. F1 is always thinking ahead which proably saved Massa's live: requiring a newly instated reinforced Kevlar helmet. The point being Massa wasn't killed and then FIA though well we better do something about that. D Earnhardt's accident was another perfect example of passive safety measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Railfreak78 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 As a huge NASCAR fan I think I have to agree. Dale's death resulted in the COT. It took Dale Jarrett being a sitting duck to stop racing back to the yellow. I thought the safer wall was pro-active but after the death of Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin Jr. at the same track in the same year I think I have to change my thinking on that subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Again, I'm not arguing the relative merits of the saftey, but to say merely "there are more/less fatalities" is a flawed jumping-off point to compare what each series is doing in terms of safety. The longest race in F1 is under 200 miles, they have what...17 races or so, and there are only 20 cars on each grid. So in any given season the total miles of racing in F1 is a fraction of what NASCAR chalks up. Each NASCAR season is several seasons' worth of racing in F1. There are so many fewer cars, racing so many fewer miles per year...it's simple math that there should be less serious incidents per year in F1. Given that they're on road courses, when there are accidents they're usually one- or two-car affairs, as well. So there is almost no chance of a 10 or 20-car crash, something that happens in NASCAR. Just because of that, you would have to expect fewer fatalities and injuries. I'm not saying F1 doesn't do a lot of things well, but just looking at death rates isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. And I'm not saying that NASCAR/NHRA or anyone else is above criticism. It's just that you can't look at one raw statistic...fatalities...and draw a conclusion. Because you can turn that around and cite a statistic about the death rate per accident. Since there are 12 crashes a race (or whatever) in NASCAR the death rate divided by the raw number of crashes would make F1 look much more dangerous on a severe-injury-per-crash basis. Again, this would be unfair just because NASCAR generates huge numbers of wrecked cars every week which dilutes the number of them resulting in serious injury. Not really, when divide zero by anything it's zero so no matter what number you come up with for NASCAR you will never generate a statistically better number than F1 over the last 18 years. But I didn't simply cited fatalities. I gave other examples 1. Personal experience for what it's worth. 2. D. Earnardt And another poster came up with another example. F1 has been tethering their wheels for 18 years. I don't know even if NASCAR has to pass a crash test? F1 does and it's quite strict. Actually miles are 1/2 and another 1/2 the cars so say a 1/4 and six deaths 1.5 : 0. So NASCAR has 1 1/2 times more deaths per miles raced or so. about 13000 for NASCAR and 5800 for F1, But NHRA is fractional (cars and miles) to that of even F1 which has had 6 or 7 top level death since Ayrton Senna's death, which is when they really stepped up safety. Zero deaths to drivers, crew or spectators is a pretty strong stat for nearly a 2 decade span. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) That 52 last year included specators, and crew as well as drivers. I was surprised to see how many specators were killed. It is a high percent, and most were at Dakar and WRC. That is what killed Group B sedans: driver/spectator deaths. Freddy Arucutipa Torres Death date: 09.Jan.2009 Role: by-passer Circuit: Dakar Rally Roberto de la Cruz Vera Hernández Death date: 09.Jan.2009 Role: by-passer Circuit: Dakar Rally Sebastian Hizey Death date: 17.Jan.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: entry pending George Eisenhart Death date: 24.Jan.2009 Role: track official Circuit: entry pending unknown Death date: 25.Jan.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Orenburg Stéphane Lucchese Death date: 08.Mar.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Rallye de Hannut Jean-Michel Pietri Death date: 26.Mar.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Ronde de la Giraglia unknown Death date: 28.Mar.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Valaská Rally unknown Death date: 28.Mar.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Valaská Rally unknown Death date: 28.Mar.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Valaská Rally Laurent Licour Death date: 29.Mar.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Rallye du Pays de Caux Michael Todd Bishop Death date: 12.Apr.2009 Role: driver Circuit: St. Catharines Jody Monier Death date: 26.Apr.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Quintal Riyaz Kurji Death date: 02.May.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Pearl of Africa Uganda Rally Gerry Meijerhof Death date: 21.May.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Ter Apel (Circuit De Polderputten) Lucian Girbacea Death date: 23.May.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Raliul Iasului Chad McDaniel Death date: 30.May.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Knoxville Raceway (Iowa) John Schulz Death date: 30.May.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Red River Valley Speedway Karel Å vec Death date: 30.May.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Rallye Posázavà Juan José Juárez Death date: 31.May.2009 Role: marshal Circuit: Unión de Los Pueblos Tamás B. Death date: 06.Jun.2009 Role: photographer Circuit: Ba-La Rallye Ikey Dorr Death date: 06.Jun.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Speedway 95 Karien Vynckier Death date: 06.Jun.2009 Role: co-driver Circuit: 12 Heures de Wervik Erwin Kreiseder Death date: 07.Jun.2009 Role: marshal Circuit: unknown (Austria) unknown Death date: 13.Jun.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Rallye Ain-Jura Carlos Pardo Death date: 14.Jun.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Puebla (Autodromo Miguel E. Abed) Tom Thrash Death date: 20.Jun.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Road America Dennis Frank Death date: 20.Jun.2009 Role: mechanic (car) Circuit: Saint Francois County Raceway Cilka Plevel Death date: 27.Jun.2009 Role: photographer Circuit: Blagomix Racing Park (Logatec) Rudy Ramos Death date: 04.Jul.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Kauai Raceway Park Steve Bowers Sr. Death date: 04.Jul.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Thunderhill Speedway (IA) Bill Grant Death date: 12.Jul.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Road America Charlie Webster Death date: 15.Jul.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Oxford Plains Speedway Asko ? Death date: 18.Jul.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Lõuna Eesti Ralli Flavio Guglielmini Death date: 19.Jul.2009 Role: co-driver Circuit: Rally Bulgaria Henry Surtees Death date: 19.Jul.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Brands Hatch Cindy Sevestre Death date: 23.Jul.2009 Role: co-driver Circuit: Rallye du Pays de Caux Des Bisset Death date: 25.Jul.2009 Role: marshal Circuit: Killarney John Phillips Death date: 02.Aug.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Harry Flatters Rally Ronnie Marcum Death date: 08.Aug.2009 Role: driver Circuit: California Speedway Thomas Knopper Death date: 09.Aug.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Liedolsheim Alan Burgess Death date: 24.Aug.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Daytona International Speedway Elise ? Death date: 12.Sep.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Rally Larvik Sabrina Deschl Death date: 20.Sep.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: St. Agatha Bianca Deschl Death date: 20.Sep.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: St. Agatha Rich Shafer Death date: 03.Oct.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Crow Mountain Hill Climb Abraham Ortega Death date: 04.Oct.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Camiños del Inca unknown Death date: 09.Oct.2009 Role: mechanic (car) Circuit: Rallye des Pharaons Sebastiano Scamporlino Death date: 25.Oct.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Trofeo Maremma Ester Márquez Levicán Death date: 31.Oct.2009 Role: spectator Circuit: Tres Horas de Puerto Natales Gary Andrew Death date: 19.Nov.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Classic Adelaide Rally David Carra Death date: 19.Nov.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Classic Adelaide Rally Enrique Franco Death date: 29.Nov.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Gran Premio Nacional (Bolivia) Robson Walther Death date: 27.Dec.2009 Role: driver Circuit: Tarumã Edited February 24, 2010 by CAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 that is the beauty of stats you can make them say whatever you want them too. Well they tried to make a criminal case out of Senna's death, and brought manslaughter charges agianst several people and there has been several legal trials... I am not sure it still hasn't been all resolved. All I am saying is F1 has done an outstanding job with safety, yes it came at the cost of Senna, but they do not play the waiting game any longer. The fatalities aside, I am not so sure NASCAR and NHRA, and CART one of the worst offenders were nearly as proactive in safety as F1. I am sure I could walk around a NASCAR and pick out a dozen if not more things that could be improved with reguards to safety, not withstanding the 3400# Nascar tank vs. 1334# F1 fueled with driver. F1 is way ahead of me in safety innovations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Just my two cents,but no one could have seen this accident coming. It was a freak accident that took an innocent woman's life. It's very easy after something like this happens to say should of,would of,could of. Nothing like this has happened before,so there's no precedent to go by. I guarantee that the NHRA will do something about this quickly. The NHRA isn't to blame,but I'm sure they will make things better to improve the safety of the spectators. No other motorsports compares to drag racing,not NASCAR,F1 or WRC or anything else. Nothing else has the horsepower,acceleration or speed that drag racing does. You can't compare safety records from one to the other,it just doesn't compare. That is not true exactly. Even back when I was involved there was a number of rule changes requarding wheels, studs and nuts for exactly this reason. In the 1970s the 917/30 was the most powerful car in the world and still holds some world records. In the Turbo Era an F1 in qualifying trim a 1L could produce upto 1685hp or 21 hp per CID, vs even a modern day TF which is what 10 maybe 15 HP per CID. A 1978 934 was 2500# 850hp and did 8.9 1/4 street legal race car and did the 24hrs of LeMans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Kortman Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Cal, I definitely respect your opinion, and maybe I'm missing your point, but there is no way you can compare those horsepower numbers with whats being produced by a Nitro car. 800, 900, even 1500 horse power is not even in the ballpark. Those Top Fuel engines are producing something like 5, 6, maybe 7000 horse power. (if the reports are to be believed) that has got to be an ungodly amount of stress on parts. Has anybody said whether or not Antron had any tire shake bafore the accident? That could have been a contributing factor to the failure as well. I mean this was only the second race of the season and with the restrictions on testing, is there any way these "new" parts could have been fatigued already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Railfreak78 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The worst part of the real crash here locally is there was rumor that I do not know if it's true or not. I heard the woman (might/was/ / ) a part of the vintage teams making a comeback at the track. Just speculation that I heard and we had a couple big name older cars here so I don't know. Never heard more about it. The local News has failed to produce interviews with team and or family members from the woman that passed. I figured by now I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Cal, I definitely respect your opinion, and maybe I'm missing your point, but there is no way you can compare those horsepower numbers with whats being produced by a Nitro car. 800, 900, even 1500 horse power is not even in the ballpark. Those Top Fuel engines are producing something like 5, 6, maybe 7000 horse power. (if the reports are to be believed) that has got to be an ungodly amount of stress on parts. Has anybody said whether or not Antron had any tire shake bafore the accident? That could have been a contributing factor to the failure as well. I mean this was only the second race of the season and with the restrictions on testing, is there any way these "new" parts could have been fatigued already? I saw the video, didn't look exactly like tire shake, it was all over the place though and kept jerking to that side. They are speculating because of the recent rains the water table raised to just below the track surface and possibly caused a distrubance in the track, maybe that caused it, but it sure looked like a serious mechancial failure. Antron said it felt strange and he let up and hit it again and felt strange then the wheel came off. But even he didn't come out and say it shook the tires off the car. It looks like larry the lawyer has done a real good job pulling all related materials off the internet though. We may never know the truth, like Ayrton Senna, the 20 seconds of proof was distroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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