Large Scale Participation at Model Car Shows

[arick]

I always watch the posts in the "Contests and Shows" threads. I'm totally impressed by whats being built in small scale but there is seldom any large scale builds photographed. I'm curious, is it because the large scale builders are not participating in the numbers that the small scale guys are or is it the simple fact that large scale still isn't as popular?

I'd be interested to hear comments from other large scale bilders.

[John E. Bowers Jr.]

I am an active large scale builder. After having entered a 1/12th scale factory manufactured kit, built and modified to my own specific desires won a very prestigious award at a large east coast NNL.

I'm sure you can recognise the kit that this began as...

The aftermarket parts availability for large scale parts has been disappointing though.

Edited March 3, 2010 by John E. Bowers Jr.

[monkeyclaw]

Rick; Alot really depends on the show!Having been a long time "big Scale" builder, I think I have had models in just about every type of show/contest format there is... Some shows don't even include a class for big scale; They just try to fit the models into "open wheel" or "closed" wheel classes that already exist. I do see quite a few more big scale models out at the shows than I did in the past; and I always push for more big scale...I think even Gregg can attest to the fact that I am a die-hard big scale modeler. I think my opinion may upset some topic readers, but I will go on anyway....here goes: being that bi-scale (1/24 1/25) is the predominent modeling scale, I think that most model shows/events ARE setup with classes to best suit those scales....but just accomodate the big scale models for the most part. Some would argue that it is not "fair" to put a big car in the same class as a smaller car; the argument that typically comes up is; A big scale model can have way more detail added than a small car simply due to it's size....and to me that argument doesn't hold water...There are a GOZILLION people out there making aftermarket parts in bi-scale, and any bi-scale modeler can just buy parts to improve their models for show....but very few of us make big scale aftermarket parts...so the onus is on the individual modeler to MAKE almost ALL of their own detail parts and add ons... IMHO this mentality is still pretty pervasive out there; regardless of where you go... I also see the same attidue on the military modeling side of the house; as I build the 1/9 and 1/16 scale military stuff as well...The "military" modelers think that 1/35 IS military modeling scale; and thus don't really pay attention to the big scale models....this mentality is VERY pervasive in the IPMS ... I have seen it 1st hand.... speaking of hands....Big scla e allows me to remain a modeler...now having almost NO use of my hands (3%) I just can't build the smaller stuff at all anymore, so I rely on building the big scale models; and I still go out to shows and contests, and plop my junk on the table, no matter how the models are classed.... I have a "special" project in the works; and plan to use YOUR IFS/IRS and wheels and tires for it; just to prove that big scale is still alive and kicking... Matt

[GrandpaMcGurk]

One of things I hear most often from the sponsors of model shows here "locally" is that they just don't have the table space to display Biggies.

The other excuse I get is that it isn't fair to the small scale guys when it comes to judging. When I ask why not separate the judging for the smaller scales from the larger ones and devote only a quarter of the table space for large entries...I'm usually told it's just too much extra work. Personally, all of these excuses sound like B.S. to me.

I know I'm just a grumpy old fart but I spend money on my large scale stuff just like the small car guys and buy stuff from the same local hobby shops they do. But when it comes time for the (LHS) guys to put on a show/contest....the biggies get passed by. Like Matt said, it's the mentality.....but not from the small scale guys. It's more on the sponsors side of the fence. I've seen small scale models that rival some of the best big ones so I don't feel that's an issue...now if a sponsor told me that there just weren't enough large scale entries to make it worth while........I'd buy that as a legitimate reason and it would be shame on us for obvious reasons.

[jbwelda]

i could add one more thing: the pain it is to transport a large scale model (i mean 1/8 scale here) to a show not to mention multiple 1/8 scale cars. its not like you can just put it in a small box with some tissue around it. ive had to build stands and glue them to glass sheet to even sort of safely transport big scale cars to shows and even then its pretty sketchy getting back and forth from the car to the tables. my big tub got half destroyed last time i took it to the NNL west by a gust of wind coming up and nearly causing me to drop it. i caught it in time but knocked off the windshield and busted the front axle. it came back better than before but it was still a pain to redo it.

another problem is the definition itself "big scale". what does that mean exactly? to me it means 1/8th scale but then to others it means 1/12, even 1/20. that to me is the problem with "big scale" modeling in general: the model companies never really chose a scale and stuck to it. just think if all the 1/12, 1/18 were 1/8 instead...we would have parts for days to swap in and out of our big scale cars.

i also agree that the mindset isnt pro-big scale at contests and they are often an afterthought, shoved over to the side and largely ignored. TDR is gonna change that though from what ive seen with introducing a whole new spectrum of parts and possiblilites to 1/8th that wont be easily ignored.

[Casey]

I suspect it's because large scale (which I'll define as 1/16th and larger) models just aren't as popular. There's a very limited supply of new large scale (LS) kits to buy and build, and besides the RMX 1/12 '69 Camaro and '57 Chevy, most of the subjects (Revell's F/Cs, Lindberg's 1/8 dragsters, the "Big Ts" from RMX) aren't easily recognizable by the average builder.

The 1/8th kits are huge when completed, and quite honestly, the 1/8 Monogram kits I've had ('82 Z/28, '85 IROC-Z, '79 T/A) still have two-piece engine block/transmission halves and aren't all that much more detailed than their 1/24 scale counterparts. The AMT 1/16th kits leave a lot to be desired, too.

I don't see the transporting LS kits to shows as a big problem, given the plethora of plastic storage containers avaialble these days. You can make a very safe storage/transport bin for a 1/8 scale model for $15 or so. When I transpaorted my 1/16th Wonderwagon F/C to the Milwaukee NNL 5 in '96, I put a few pieces of foam in a storage container, added some Kleenex tissue here and there to prevent rubbing, and made it there and back without any issues. It's still stored in the same container and foam today.

Getting a bit more off-topic, I do think the recent 1/8 "Big" re-issues from RMX have been great, and I'm sure plenty of baby boomers who built these in their youth picked one up if they ventured into their local hobby shop recently. These are way easier on the eyes and hands compared to a 1/25th scale kit, and you can add as much detail as you like or your skills allow.

[Pete J.]

I agree with most of the above and would add a bias that I had for years and will now recant. "Big scale is easier because it is bigger." Bologna!! I have discovered that 1:12 scale is far harder to build because there is far more detail to get it right. For instance, on my 935 I have bolt head that measure as small at .010" in diameter, and I used a lot of them. Most 1:24 scale builders don't even use bolts that small. There are also hundreds of screw heads and A/N fittings. I would estimate that it takes at least a factor of 10 times the number of parts between 1:12 and 1:24.

On top of that getting a perfect paint job on large scale is far harder because you have at least 4 times the surface to cover. It seems to take forever to polish out a large scale project. It ain't easier because its bigger, but until you have tried it you don't know.

[arick]

Thanks to each of you for the feedback, and each of you brings up several good points.

I wasn't trying to bring TDR into the fold but seeing as one of you mentioned it, I'll make this statement...........if things keep going as well as they have been in the last year, next year we should be able to afford to attend some shows. Perhaps we'll even be able to sponsor some awards that will encourage the promotors to give large scale some much deserved table space.

[Pete J.]

Transport of large scale vehicles take a bit more car. Each one I have done, I have had to make t special box for. They all have had to be airline qualified. This one is exactly one inch smaller in each dimention than acceptable for carry on luggage.

[arick]

Forget the box! I'd like to see more of that one.

[jbwelda]

i really cant justify spending a whole lot of time building travelling cases for my big scale cars, so you guys are way ahead of me on that aspect. also i dont generally build (well ive only built two big scale in my recent life to tell the truth, but im working on two currently) cars that fit well into cases like a streamlined porsches. mine tend to have a lot of semi-permanent stuff hanging off them. however bedding them down in a plastic container with a pillow under them might work. i think i will try that tomorrow in fact at okie als spring NNL.

i would like to see more of that porsche too!

[Mr.1/16th]

i hear you brother, i have had a few years of building large scale under my belt and have noticed that only a few people build large scale kits since 80% of the custom parts have to be hand made or come form other builders who share the same passion for the larger scale kits. it has been a challange for me to transport them to show across the country and with the air line rules it's hard to find a case that will work! so we found a case that works for 4 to 5 large scale kits if you know how to place them in and it was only $20.00 from harbor freight. i don't see alot of other 1/16th scale builders at show but i know their out their waiting to show their stuff!! i have been working on alot of extra parts and body's that you wouldn't even think of and it's fun to find a body that you can fab everything for it and inter it as a scratch built model car and then build off of that and come out with your own line of kits to help bridge the gap of 1/16th scale kits. i remember being told by a fellow builder " You know that you'll never get anywere with the funky ass large scale that no one want to build!!" so i turned that into the motovation i needed to build and be what the 1/16th scale community needed!! i find that people will follow what their use to and ride the tails of other 1/24th 25th scale builders and they look down on "us" large scale builders. it's all on them anyways so i build for myself and never again will i need their approval for what i like to build.!! build what you like and post up the large scale kits brother!! Mr.1/16th

[Pete J.]

Forget the box! I'd like to see more of that one.

'K, we can do that. I have posted wip photos before and got a bit of a luke warm reception. Here ya go!

Edited March 8, 2010 by Pete J.

[Junkman]

I used to do a lot of big scale modelling in the past. But let's face it, it demands a hefty premium over 'small' or 'regular' scale modelling. Few big scale modellers ever talk money and this says it all, actually. In addition to the outlay for the model kits themselves, you also need a sizeable infrastructure to build them and displaying them at home requires an appropriately sized real estate. If you want to take them to shows, you need suitable transport containers and means of transport. All this adds up and therefore I find it a natural, that big scales are much rarer out there than smaller models.

I gave up on big scale simply for monetary and space reasons. And I admit it. With the rapid decline in living standard, I can simply no longer afford it.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Junkman

[Harry P.]

I agree, money has a lot to do with the scarcity of big scale models at shows and contests. I build Pocher kits, and let me tell you, that is NOT a cheap way to enjoy model cars. Even the "normal" 1/8 scale kits cost way more than your typical 1/24 scale model. A lot of people just don't have the finances to build big scale.

BTW... that Porsche is very cool!

[arick]

Thanks for posting those greate photo's Pete. I'd like to see more of your work. Nicely done!

[Casey]

I might be more inclined to buy the money excuse, but how many people who only build 1/25th scale stuff have only one or two models in their stash and spend only $20 on each kit total? Not too many I bet. Add up the cost of a few bi-scale kits, paint for them, any aftermarket detailing items, and you have $90.00 to buy a 1/8 Revell Big Tub. $50 buys the Revell 1/16 '34 Ford 3-window coupe shipped to your door. 1/16th scale stuff is all over eBay, and most it is not much more than one or two bi-scale kits ($20-$30) would cost.

[jbwelda]

super porsche!!!

>Add up the cost of a few bi-scale kits, paint for them, any aftermarket detailing items, and you have $90.00 to

>buy a 1/8 Revell Big Tub

ah but you forgot to follow that to its logical conclusion: buy the big tub and then you STILL have to buy all the other stuff, or more because the size calls for the extra detail. then you have 250$ in it!

[Harry P.]

super porsche!!!

>Add up the cost of a few bi-scale kits, paint for them, any aftermarket detailing items, and you have $90.00 to

>buy a 1/8 Revell Big Tub

ah but you forgot to follow that to its logical conclusion: buy the big tub and then you STILL have to buy all the other stuff, or more because the size calls for the extra detail. then you have 250$ in it!

Exactly! Big scale kits cost much more than "regular" scale kits... and then you still need paints, etc., just like any other kit. But when your base kit costs 4-5 times what a 1/24 kit costs, you wind up paying a lot more overall... and that is why large scale kits are less popular–they cost a lot!!!

[Pete J.]

Gentlemen - Thank you for your kind complements. You are all quite right about costs, but then I have to point out that large scale takes much longer to build and to me that is a big plus. You see, I feel that 95% of the fun in models is the building so the longer it takes the better for me! I would guesstimate that the Porsche is 1:24 scale times a factor of 8. I can build a small scale in about 8 to 10 months. This beast took 3 1/2 years. A top quality SMS set for 1:24 is $100 to $150. This one was over $600. I don't have a clue how much I spent on scratch building supplies, wires, paint and other bits and pieces but it was a lot. I also used two kits because the engine in the photo is a separate display. The car has an engine in it but is only visible from the bottom and is detailed on the bottom only. To make matters worse, this was the second one of these that I built. Last 5 years, 2 completed large scale cars, one oob Ferrari F1, and three Hasegawa egg planes. Oh, yes an Aerobase photo etched Graf Zeppelin. Not much production, but probably more fun than I would have had it I had built 10 small scale cars.

Indeed, large scale is a form of insanity all in it's own. As I said before, only those who have tried it truly understand. Now, where did it put that Jagermeister 934 kit

[Casey]

Exactly! Big scale kits cost much more than "regular" scale kits... and then you still need paints, etc., just like any other kit. But when your base kit costs 4-5 times what a 1/24 kit costs, you wind up paying a lot more overall... and that is why large scale kits are less popularthey cost a lot!!!

If you're buying a $250-$400 Pocher or Tamiya big scale kit and comparing that to a standard 1/25 Revell kit, then yes, you'll have a much big investment up front, but is that really a fair comparison? Instead compare Revell's new 1/25 '57 Bel Air kit at $30.00 to their 1/12 '57 Bel Air kit at $60.00, and that's only twice (rather than 4-5 times) as much, which isn't a huge jump.

Yes, you will use more supplies, but build 2-4 bi-scale kits and you'll use the same amount of supplies. Plus, as mentioned above, the big scale kit will take longer to build, so you could build (and spend the money on) 2-4 bi-scale kits in the same time period. I think it's a wash if you compare apples to apples.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Casey

[Harry P.]

There's no such thing as a $200-$400 Pocher kit unless you're talking about one that's already been built and/or in really bad shape. More like $500-$2500 for an unbuilt kit with no damage and no missing parts. And finding one at the lower end of that range only happens if you get very lucky.

[old-hermit]

I just read this entire thread and you all make good points. I've been building primarily 1/8 scale models for around five years and the main reason I've quit entering my large builds in shows is while you bi-scale guys walk in with a plastic tub or briefcase with five or six models I have to make five or six trips to the car to bring them in and five or six trips to take them out. I'm old, fat & lazy and just don't want to do it anymore. As for the cost, who cares. You're gonna spend the money on something, why not spend it on something you enjoy and I enjoy building large scale.

[Junkman]

Directly, or indirectly, you all confirm what I wrote. A big scale costs a multitude of a main scale. It doesn't matter whether it's by factor 2, 4, or whatever. This makes the smaller models naturally more plentiful than big scale ones. Add to this that a lot of people don't even bother to buy into (literally) big scale, because they have to spend the money for one model immediately and in one go. I (and I think there are lots of people out there who think similar) rather buy one small scale kit a month, than saving four months to buy a big scale kit for the same money. Please note, that all these figures only serve as an example. The outlay for -say- a Pocher kit is considerable and would have a serious impact on the household budget for most of us.

And old-hermit, if you don't have to care about the cost, you are in an enviable position the majority is not able to enjoy.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Junkman

[sjordan2]

Seems to me that the choosing the car you want to build shouldn't be dependent on scale (though I've seen some posts on this forum from people who don't like to mix scales in their collection. Not sure I understand that.). I like larger scales, 1/16 and 1/12, because of the opportunity to add more realistic detail and I'm another old fart whose fingers don't handle smaller scales very well anymore. The problem with larger scales like 1/16 is that it's hard to find aftermarket parts, particularly engine bay parts like spark plug wire connectors, etc., so sometimes there's more scratchbuilding involved.

Speaking of "bi-scale," I find that in most cases there's a bigger difference than I realized between 1/24 and 1/25. I recently bought aftermarket parts including tires, wheels, coils, etc. for a 1/25 project where, although the parts labels say they fit 1/24 & 1/25, they're too big for the 1/25. These kind of parts aren't readily available at retail stores here, so I've had to order them online and have been disappointed at what I received.

Edited March 10, 2010 by sjordan2