Winton Auto

[b2187101]

I work at a museum in Ohio. I am putting together an exhibit on Ohio inventors and innovators that will go along with the state standards. Alexander Winton is one of the inventors that I will be featuring. He built cars in Cleveland. The most famous Winton car was the "Vermont", which was driven across country in 1903 (a first). Of course my museum does not have any real artifacts from a Winton auto so I thought I'd use a model if available. I was wondering if anyone knew of a model car company that makes a Winton auto?

Thanks for your help. Although I haven't built a model in years, this is a pretty neat site.

Thanks again,

Mike

[Dave in Seattle]

There actually was a model of that exact car done in 1/24 scale back in the 60s. It was issued in a shadowbox-style diorama setting, and included figures of the driver, mechanic and the dog! The kit was made by tonka (yup, the same one) and is extremely rare and therefore expensive. It was part of a series that Tonka issued that only made one appearance in the market and then disappeared.

I'm not at my home computer right now, but think I have a picture of the kit that I will hunt up later this week. The kit does rarely show up on that auction site once in awhile. Good luck finding one!

Edited March 29, 2010 by Dave in Seattle

[Dave in Seattle]

Yup. I've got it too, along with the other two in the series. If I remember correctly, there were two (the Winton and a brass-era Ford fire truck) that were in wooden shadow boxes, and one (another brass-era Ford) in a plastic one, for a total of three. I can't look for my pics until at least Thursday, and god only knows where the kits themselves might be in the stash!

[Art Anderson]

I work at a museum in Ohio. I am putting together an exhibit on Ohio inventors and innovators that will go along with the state standards. Alexander Winton is one of the inventors that I will be featuring. He built cars in Cleveland. The most famous Winton car was the "Vermont", which was driven across country in 1903 (a first). Of course my museum does not have any real artifacts from a Winton auto so I thought I'd use a model if available. I was wondering if anyone knew of a model car company that makes a Winton auto?

Thanks for your help. Although I haven't built a model in years, this is a pretty neat site.

Thanks again,

Mike

Yes, there was a kit produced of "Vermont", complete with the driver and his pet dog. It was produced in kit form by the unlikely source, Tonka Toys, but it is a very nice 1/25 scale plastic model kit. It's one of a series of "Diorama" kits, comes with a showcase to build as well, in two versions:

The most expensive version (in the middle 1970's when they were produced) is the one sold through hobby shops, as it has a wooden showcase with glass panels (you have to build the showcase in either version), but they also made the kit in a less-expensive version, with the showcase being done in clear and black styrene plastic. In either one, the model and the diorama stuff is identical. They aren't on every streetcorner, for sure, but not completely unobtainium--the higher value one with wooden showcase will go for perhaps $120 or so on eBay, while the all plastic version may well be less than that.

Noted antique and Classic Car restorer and collector, Dr. Peter Kesling of LaPorte IN restored a 1903 Winton to replicate as exactly as possible, "Vermont", then drove it from San Francisco to New York City in 2003, the centennial of the original first transcontinental run, traveling as much as possible the original route, finishing the trip exactly 100yrs to the day after the original.

Art

[sjordan2]

As a museum professional, you probably know about this, while others may not – PBS aired a highly entertaining documentary by Ken Burns on this subject, "Horatio's Drive."

http://www.pbs.org/horatio/index.html

The DVD is available from the PBS online store for $24.98.

PS– Amazon has the companion book to this documentary:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Horatio%27s+Drive&x=12&y=15

Edited March 30, 2010 by sjordan2

[Art Anderson]

As a museum professional, you probably know about this, while others may not – PBS aired a highly entertaining documentary by Ken Burns on this subject, "Horatio's Drive."

http://www.pbs.org/horatio/index.html

The DVD is available from the PBS online store for $24.98.

NBC also covered Dr Kesling's Centennial Re-enactment with daily updates on his progress across the continent. IIRC, WNDU-TV, the station then owned by The University of Notre Dame, and located on that campus, provided the news crew that followed Kesling, as it was considered a major local story for them (LaPorte IN is only about 25 miles west of South Bend). It was a fascinating series of updates, every day for a month, on the 6:00pm news.

Art

[Dave in Seattle]

I found my picture of the kit discussed above. Everything shown in the photo is in the kit, including the shadowbox.

[sjordan2]

That diorama kit looks great. The only difference is that most of the photos I see of the real car (and as displayed at the Smithsonian GM transportation museum) show a wrapped spare tire mounted in front of the radiator. But these diorama kits are nearly impossible to find. I bet Art could suggest some kitbashing/scratchbuilding approaches.

On the other hand, maybe you could track this guy down and ask if you could borrow his build.

http://s616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/Pilgrim_02/1_25%20Models/?action=view&current=1903WintonTouring.jpg&currenttag=Tonka+Diorama

Edited April 1, 2010 by sjordan2

[Art Anderson]

That diorama kit looks great. The only difference is that most of the photos I see of the real car (and as displayed at the Smithsonian GM transportation museum) show a wrapped spare tire mounted in front of the radiator. But these diorama kits are nearly impossible to find. I bet Art could suggest some kitbashing/scratchbuilding approaches.

On the other hand, maybe you could track this guy down and ask if you could borrow his build.

http://s616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/Pilgrim_02/1_25%20Models/?action=view&current=1903WintonTouring.jpg&currenttag=Tonka+Diorama

It's quite possible that the "wrapped" spare tire appeared as a "moment in time", both from pictures taken of the Winton on it's epic journey, and the restoration done with that in mind. With that in mind, the car as seen by Tonka's product development people may not have had it installed.

My only memory of the Smithsonian comes from age 5. Now I was pretty observant at that age, but not given to studying details (that took years to develop), but I seem to remember the display of antique cars as being a bit "grungy" given the Smithsonian Institution's role as "The Nation's Attic" back then--it's only in recent decades that the museum has become an interpretive exhibition. With the beginning of displays of artifacts as they would have appeared when either new or active (witness the National Air & Space Museum--a part of the Smithsonian, and their incredibly realistic restorations of famed aircraft, the Spirit of St Louis and the 1903 Wright Flyer excepted--those are too important to be restored, I suspect). In 1995, as part of the commemoration of the first run of the Haynes Automobile, the Smithsonian transported the original car to Kokomo IN, for a summer-long display in the climate controlled environment of the carriage house at the Seiberling Mansion (of Seiberling Tire fame). It was obvious that the 1895 Haynes had been meticulously restored, by craftsmen who worked hard to recreate the look of such a vehicle as built, not necessarily all shiny with highly polished brass (it doesn't have much brasswork at all nor a million dollar catalyzed enamel paintjob!)

The late William Harrah, who created the former and fabulous Harrah's Automobile Collection in Reno NV, did this when he acquired the legendary 1907 Thomas Flyer, winner of the 1908 New York to Paris Race. That car had resided in the hands of the late George Schuster (who drove it on that epic trek) for years, passing to New York opera tenor James Melton (one of founders of AACA) and then to noted collector Henry Austin Clark Jr--who sold it to Harrah's in the early 1960's. Instead of restoring the Thomas to its factory new appearance (as it started the race in New York City), he had his people research the car as it finished the event, in which configuration it had remained all those years. Essentially, the car was disassembled, cleaned up (prolly a lot of cobwebs all over it), then reassembled it exactly as it had been, complete with the well-known field repair of the stripped transmission gear that had been fixed somewhere in Siberia with ordinary machine screws threaded into hand-tapped holes, then hand filed roughly to the shape of the missing gear teeth!. Once the car was assembled, it was started, and run on muddy Nevada roads, where the soils apparently are very close in color to those of western Germany and eastern France, the last legs of the journey in 1908, resulting in very believable mud spatters and dust. The damaged left side headlight was left as it had been on the Champs de Elysee that victorious day, bracket bent, lens broken out. The brasswork was left to tarnish to a brown cast. Harrah's had an advantage in authenticating what they had done--George Schuster was in his 80's, still living when in the late 1960's, he was invited to Harrah's, to see the restoration, and he authenticated what had been done. This is the 1907 Thomas Flyer as seen today at the National Automobile Museum in Reno (and occcasionally shown on loan at other significant antique car museums).

I suspect that this might explain why the Smithsonian chose to present the 1903 Winton in the manner described--but that it probably did not look that way in the mid-1970's when Tonka (thankfully!) kitted it. As for the diorama background, that may well be fanciful, believable, but not necessarily an accurate representation of any western town of 1903. But, who knows for sure? I don't! The few pics I have seen of it show the car in semi-desert, and that wouldn't have made for much of a diorama aimed at younger builders wanting to make a project for history class in say, middle school.

Art

Edited April 1, 2010 by Art Anderson

[lordairgtar]

Now with all that said, what would be the likelihood of inquiring of Tonka whether those tools are still extant. Perhaps this would be a good thing for Model King to inquire into. I would certainly like to build those models. I know this is not a real popular style of kit, but I would like one.

[Art Anderson]

Now with all that said, what would be the likelihood of inquiring of Tonka whether those tools are still extant. Perhaps this would be a good thing for Model King to inquire into. I would certainly like to build those models. I know this is not a real popular style of kit, but I would like one.

Who has even a clue? Tonka Toys as a free-standing company is no more, the brand is now owned by Mattel, and has been for years.

As for the "Diorama" kits, there were 6: 1903 Winton, 1913 Model T Touring Car (two variants of this--the stock T, and one done in red, as a fire chief's car), 1903 Wright Flyer, Lindbergh's "Spirit of St. Louis", Chicago & Northwestern locomotive "Pioneer" (a 4-2-0 steamer from the 1850's), and the Western& Atlantic "General" (the famed 4-4-2 steam locomotive from the Civil War's "Great Locomotive Chase".

The kits just didn't sell well at all--they were out for only one or two seasons, and then disappeared into the mists of time.

Art

[sjordan2]

Who has even a clue? Tonka Toys as a free-standing company is no more, the brand is now owned by Mattel, and has been for years.

As for the "Diorama" kits, there were 6: 1903 Winton, 1913 Model T Touring Car (two variants of this--the stock T, and one done in red, as a fire chief's car), 1903 Wright Flyer, Lindbergh's "Spirit of St. Louis", Chicago & Northwestern locomotive "Pioneer" (a 4-2-0 steamer from the 1850's), and the Western& Atlantic "General" (the famed 4-4-2 steam locomotive from the Civil War's "Great Locomotive Chase".

The kits just didn't sell well at all--they were out for only one or two seasons, and then disappeared into the mists of time.

Art

Actually, Tonka is owned by Hasbro, which has been back and forth in talks with Mattel. But I agree with you about a better diorama for the Winton than the Tonka kit's Western street – although I found a painting of the broken-down Winton next to a conestoga wagon, which is probably not very accurate for 1903 either. The 2003 Smithsonian exhibit created a life-size diorama showing the Winton being pulled out of the mud with the aid of the block and tackle they carried along with them, backed by a majestic Southwest panorama that looks just right. Of course, Bud the bulldog is right there.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2123-Baltimore-Family-Entertainment-Examiner~y2010m2d5-bud

I would add that the person who originally posted this thread has not returned to the conversation, and further attempts to help him may not be fruitful.