Looking for some help for 1930s Packards

[Dave in Seattle]

The recent thread regarding colors for the 1930-ish Packards, has once again tweaked my interest in these beauties. Out in the stash, I've got a bunch of those Monogram kits that need to be built. What I'd really like to do though, is a version or two that uses the disc wheels. So.....I'm looking for any kind of drawing or dimensional information regarding same. I can certainly turn them on the lathe, but don't know the details. Can anyone out there help? Many thanks.

[Art Anderson]

The recent thread regarding colors for the 1930-ish Packards, has once again tweaked my interest in these beauties. Out in the stash, I've got a bunch of those Monogram kits that need to be built. What I'd really like to do though, is a version or two that uses the disc wheels. So.....I'm looking for any kind of drawing or dimensional information regarding same. I can certainly turn them on the lathe, but don't know the details. Can anyone out there help? Many thanks.

Dave,

Did some Googling for ya, went back a year to 1929, just to make sure I found a few examples with disc wheels, and here's what I found: http://www.tomlaferriere.com/CarsForSale/1929Packard626coupe/1929Packard-626Coupe%20004.jpg

This coupe with disc wheels clearly shows the wheel mounting/demounting for you--8 lugs, hub is EXACTLY the same as for wood-spoke artillery wheels for the same year Packard. The disc is "dished in" (easily seen in this pic) a distance equal to the thickness of the wooden artillery wheel, and like the '29 artillery wheel, is demounted by removing the 8 lug bolts. The tire size appears to be the same as for use with wire wheels (and I would use the kit tires for that reason), the rim is a split-ring design (same as older steel HD truck rims or farm tractor rear wheels. Note that for the spare wheel, a plain chrome hubcap is used, which is the same diameter as the wheel hub (which is fixed in this type of wheel installation) and is apparently some sort of press-on attachment to the spare tire mount after the spare is bolted securely there. The flange of the hub looks to be perhaps 8" in diameter, the body of the hub no more than 3" diameter, and appears to extend out from the flange about 6". Note that the outer end of the hub is larger in diameter than the body, by a good inch to inch and a half, looking almost like the head of a nail. The red Packard Hexagon is recessed slightly into the hubcap, which was polished aluminum, not chrome plated, and was removable only for the purpose of accessing the castelated retainer nut for hub and brake drum removal.

Here's a '29 Packard with wood spoke artillery wheels for comparison, perhaps even easier to see my description:

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Packard/29_Packard_640_Runbt_Rdstr_DV_06-AI_01.jpg

Art

[sjordan2]

The link I posted in the last Packard thread also has some good wheel shots...

http://www.autosalon-singen.de/en/fahrzeug81540006-Packard-626.html

I wonder if you could invert some aftermarket full moon hubcaps as a starting point...?

Edited May 18, 2010 by sjordan2

[Dave in Seattle]

All helpful info guys. Many thanks. I guess my real question goes to the shape of the cross section line of the "dish" of the disc. I've never seen one of these wheels "in the flesh", so all I have is pictures. In cross section, is this wheel shaped like a shallow bowl - akin to a birdbath, for example? Or is it pretty much conical, with straight sides?

[Art Anderson]

All helpful info guys. Many thanks. I guess my real question goes to the shape of the cross section line of the "dish" of the disc. I've never seen one of these wheels "in the flesh", so all I have is pictures. In cross section, is this wheel shaped like a shallow bowl - akin to a birdbath, for example? Or is it pretty much conical, with straight sides?

Looks to be very much like a shallow salad bowl, flat bottom (center of the wheel) with a defined angle where the outward "flare" begins. That "flare" (like the sides of a bowl) appears in both pics up here now, to have a slight outward curve, not a flat angle as in a cone-shape. Perhaps if you were to save the two pics, run them through whatever photo-editing software you have (for pics off the web, I really like Irfanview--"enhance colors", under the "image" icon on the Irfanview picture toolbar), you should be able to alter the contrast, change the gamma correction, adjust the color intensity to make the pic show up the shapes and contours better.

Looks like it should be an easy project on the lathe!

Art

[sjordan2]

Looks to be very much like a shallow salad bowl, flat bottom (center of the wheel) with a defined angle where the outward "flare" begins. That "flare" (like the sides of a bowl) appears in both pics up here now, to have a slight outward curve, not a flat angle as in a cone-shape. Perhaps if you were to save the two pics, run them through whatever photo-editing software you have (for pics off the web, I really like Irfanview--"enhance colors", under the "image" icon on the Irfanview picture toolbar), you should be able to alter the contrast, change the gamma correction, adjust the color intensity to make the pic show up the shapes and contours better.

Looks like it should be an easy project on the lathe!

Art

By adjusting the contrast and brightness levels on one particular picture at the AutoSalon-Singen link above, this seems like a pretty close description; the wheels have a far more subtle and complex design than I realized.

The widest part of the wheel is not really bowl-shaped; even though it slopes inward to the center, it is very slightly convex, sort of like the wall of a tire – the slight outward curve that Art mentioned. As you can see, it meets a convex center, which appears to be in two very subtle stages.

[SoCalCarCulture]

Dave - maybe this will help with the profile, whole pic and a crop of the wheel, from a packard show a few months ago - I probably have others but this was easy to find...

[Dave in Seattle]

Great! More help. Many thanks. Now I get the outside contour much better. Now, what about the inside? I suspect that I will need to compromise that anyway because of the limits of making a part and casting it. (You did not seriously think I would do this without casting it, did you?) Of course, Art put another bug in my head with that seriously great photo of the artillery wheels too... Dang! Too many projects for the time alloted!

Actually I love it. Keep the info coming please!

[Dave in Seattle]

Some more careful study has led me to think that these wheels are somewhat like a shallow version of the bell of a trumpet or trombone, both on the outside and inside. What say you gentlemen?

[sjordan2]

Some more careful study has led me to think that these wheels are somewhat like a shallow version of the bell of a trumpet or trombone, both on the outside and inside. What say you gentlemen?

I agree. There might have been variations, though; Dave's picture (apparently a '28 model based on the license plate), suggests that the wide part of the dish becomes flatter toward the center than the pictures I was looking at.

[SoCalCarCulture]

Here's a couple more artillery wheels to whet your appetite...

[sjordan2]

From what I can see, Packard artillery wheels were mostly used from 33-36, possibly to 39. If you're using Monogram kits, I would assume they're mostly circa 1930.

[Art Anderson]

Some more careful study has led me to think that these wheels are somewhat like a shallow version of the bell of a trumpet or trombone, both on the outside and inside. What say you gentlemen?

Those early steel disc wheels were done entirely from pressed steel, probably about 1/8" thick on light cars (like a Chevrolet) perhaps a bit heavier on a large car such as the Packard. I'd be pretty sure that the outer edge of the center disc was pressed backwards in "tabs" which themselves were hot-riveted into the rim, much like all steelies since then (steel disc wheels were riveted until the advent--and trust developed--of welding. The deeper "dish" look of the wheel on Packards (as opposed to the nearly flat discs first used on this type of wheel earlier in the 20's was almost assuredly meant to provide greater resistance to being bent upon receiving blows from the side (Dad told me once that a '27 Chevy steel wheel could be bent noticeably upon getting caught in a frozen rut on a dirt country road in winter--he had a neighbor who had one, had to replace several wheels [even a rear axle shaft once] on a '27 Chevrolet Coach). On a model you may well have to turn a set of brake drums to make this sort of wheel really happen, but then I've not tried it.

Bob Hoover, up in Chicago, sold me a set of white metal steel disc wheels he'd mastered perhaps 35 yrs ago for the Monogram Packard Boattail, but they fasten up to the stock kit brake drum, which makes the center hub way too fat, stick out too far as well.

Art