Current Barrett-Jackson auction

[sjordan2]

Been watching this for the past couple of days. Has anyone noticed that the sale prices are hugely lower than in years past? Of course, the announcers don't comment on this. Just lots of "well bought" and "there's a happy bidder" statements.

[sjordan2]

There are very few losers that are allowed in prime time at Barrett-Jackson. Just a few minutes ago, a perfect '68 Camaro "RS/SS" convertible, even with questionable provenance, went for $68,000, while the auctioneer had been stressing that "this is easily a $100,000 car." The announcers agreed, saying that would have been true a couple of years ago.

The announcers have really been tiptoeing around the subject, noting that B-J is a no-reserve auction, that owners find it tough to give up their babies, and they might get much less than they expected. No comments about the state of the U.S. collector car market.

From what I've seen, however, things aren't that bad overseas for super-collectible cars at auctions such as Coys and RM's European ventures, for Bugattis and other vintage coach-built items. Some Ferraris are going for world-record prices.

[highway]

I can't really comment on the lower prices, but thanks for letting me know it was on!

[Junkman]

I am in the old car business and I cannot see a general decline in prices for good cars, to the contrary. What I can see is a certain market saturation for selected 'blue chip' cars. Here in Europe, the focus is currently more on the - how should I call them? - non mainstream cars. For example, while the prices for Jaguar MKIIs actually went down, the sister model Daimler 250 picked up significantly. So did the Mark 10, which wouldn't have got a second glance from a self respected Jaguar collector just five or so years ago. Thanks god I stocked up on those while others weighed them in at the scrappy's. There are other examples numerous enough to make me believe there is a trend towards the 'overlooked' cars. Jaguar XKE down, XJS up. Triumph 2500 down, Rover P6 up. Ford Zephyr/Zodiac down, Wolseley 6/110 up. Escort MKII down, Hillman Avenger up. Contributing to this is also the fear of fakes. Of the 3000 or so Lotus Cortinas ever built, the surviving 5000 meanwhile all found buyers, which means there is no demand for decades to come.

I can imagine a similar trend is forming in the States. Exactly how may Camaro RS/SSes, Boss Mustangs, Hemi Cudas or Tri Chevies do you want to sell? There is a point, when everybody who wants one, and can afford one, has one. These people will then look for other (read 'lesser') cars, so do people who simply aren't in the money for the top of the market. Consequently, prices for the mainstream stuff stays put or even goes down in some cases, while cars which hitherto weren't 'en vogue' with the mainstream collector world take hikes.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Junkman

[sjordan2]

I am in the old car business and I cannot see a general decline in prices for good cars, to the contrary. What I can see is a certain market saturation for selected 'blue chip' cars. Here in Europe, the focus is currently more on the - how should I call them? - non mainstream cars. For example, while the prices for Jaguar MKIIs actually went down, the sister model Daimler 250 picked up significantly. So did the Mark 10, which wouldn't have got a second glance from a self respected Jaguar collector just five or so years ago. Thanks god I stocked up on those while others weighed them in at the scrappy's. There are other examples numerous enough to make me believe there is a trend towards the 'overlooked' cars. Jaguar XKE down, XJS up. Triumph 2500 down, Rover P6 up. Ford Zephyr/Zodiac down, Wolseley 6/110 up. Escort MKII down, Hillman Avenger up. Contributing to this is also the fear of fakes. Of the 3000 or so Lotus Cortinas ever built, the surviving 5000 meanwhile all found buyers, which means there is no demand for decades to come.

I can imagine a similar trend is forming in the States. Exactly how may Camaro RS/SSes, Boss Mustangs, Hemi Cudas or Tri Chevies do you want to sell? There is a point, when everybody who wants one, and can afford one, has one. These people will then look for other (read 'lesser') cars, so do people who simply aren't in the money for the top of the market. Consequently, prices for the mainstream stuff stays put or even goes down in some cases, while cars which hitherto weren't 'en vogue' with the mainstream collector world take hikes.

There may be something of a fringe demand for certain "off-brand" cars here, such as a beautifully done Crosley woody wagon that just brought a pretty good price, and then for certain curiosities. But Barrett-Jackson succeeds with people who are primarily interested in American muscle or 50s chrome-laden glitter cars, and has never done well with vintage classics. I would never try to sell such a car at B-J (an incredible Graham-Paige just went for a ridiculously low price). Your Lotus Cortina is an example of a car that is much more desirable now than in its heyday (when its mundane Ford basis kept American buyers away, though the Vega Cosworth is picking up admirers here), but not one of the resurgent cars you listed would sell for anything here, since many of them were never marketed in the U.S. to begin with.

I wonder if the "Baby Boomer" syndrome isn't also taking place in Britain, where people may be interested in collecting memories of their youth, no matter how mundane – the cars they actually grew up with.

[Junkman]

There may be something of a fringe demand for certain "off-brand" cars here, such as a beautifully done Crosley woody wagon that just brought a pretty good price, and then for certain curiosities. But Barrett-Jackson succeeds with people who are primarily interested in American muscle or 50s chrome-laden glitter cars, and has never done well with vintage classics. I would never try to sell such a car at B-J (an incredible Graham-Paige just went for a ridiculously low price). Your Lotus Cortina is an example of a car that is much more desirable now than in its heyday (when its mundane Ford basis kept American buyers away, though the Vega Cosworth is picking up admirers here), but not one of the resurgent cars you listed would sell for anything here, since many of them were never marketed in the U.S. to begin with.

I wonder if the "Baby Boomer" syndrome isn't also taking place in Britain, where people may be interested in collecting memories of their youth, no matter how mundane – the cars they actually grew up with.

The "Baby Boomer" syndrome is alive and well in Blighty, thank you. They buy Morris Minors, of all things rotten.

The cars I mentioned of course wouldn't sell in mainstream America, with the average person having never even heard of them. But quite a few of them left the country westbound lately. There are a few individualists left even in America after all. However, I merely mentioned them to illustrate with a few examples the development of the collectors market I see in Europe, which follows quite similar mechanisms as elsewhere in the world. These examples should not be taken at face value from an American point of view. They will need to be translated, or better interpreted, into American cars. I give you one example: 59 Caddy down, 59 Imperial up. There is also an increasing interest in AMC products, something unthinkable just ten years ago.

Furthermore, there may be a temporary stagnation in interest in American muscle or 50s chrome-laden glitter cars for the reasons I stated. Market saturation, the asking prices vs. the buying power of the people who haven't got one yet, and the fear of fakes.

[sjordan2]

I think you've pretty much nailed everything. However, I would be interested in how you define "fakes" in your business and your market. Here, of course, we have a number of "tribute" restorations whose numbers don't match the type of model they started out as (Hemi Cudas, SS427, endless Mopar models, many beautifully done but inauthentic upgrades, etc). That's okay as long as they're identified as such up front (and if not, you'll be revealed at auction by the experts).

[Harry P.]

"It's the economy, stupid."

-James Carville

[AzTom]

My three year old Grandson doesn't care what they sell for, that's all he wants to watch.

[url=http://www.fotki.com]

[Junkman]

I think you've pretty much nailed everything. However, I would be interested in how you define "fakes" in your business and your market. Here, of course, we have a number of "tribute" restorations whose numbers don't match the type of model they started out as (Hemi Cudas, SS427, endless Mopar models, many beautifully done but inauthentic upgrades, etc). That's okay as long as they're identified as such up front (and if not, you'll be revealed at auction by the experts).

It is easy to fake European cars, since they weren't "painted by numbers". The only documented number always was the chassis number and this is easy to fake. I give you an example. You find a rotten Jag MKII 3.8. You then buy a 2.4, fit it with a 3.8, switch the chassis number over from the rotten 3.8 and hey presto. If done properly, nobody can prove what you did. In the same fashion, a BMW 1602 becomes a 2002tii, a Triumph Dolomite a Dolomite Sprint, a Fiat 131 a Supermirafiori, a Capri 1600 a 2600 RS, and so on, and so forth. I'm not saying this is the rule, but it has been done. These are extreme examples. It is yet easier to fit an executive interior into a basic Zodiac, a base Cortina becomes a GXL, a Granada GL a Ghia X, you get the picture.

Ironically, quite a few collectors now flock to the base models, since it became quite obvious that their survival rate is much lower than the one of the glitzier models. A trend which isn't lost on me either. Owning a well optioned Rover P6 3500 V8, I carefully eyed over a plane jane, no frills 2200TC the other day. Not too long ago, I would have considered it a parts donor, but now I can envision it parked alongside my bling bling mobile.

[Modelmartin]

Christian,

I am quite into Minis and used to get some of the English Mini mags. I saw mention of "re-shelling" a car. How are those regarded in collecter circles over there? It sounds dubious as to authenticity, great for practicality.

I believe that Classic Car Club Of America of America requires a certain percentage of the original body be extant and used in the restoration in order for it be reagrded as original.

[Junkman]

Christian,

I am quite into Minis and used to get some of the English Mini mags. I saw mention of "re-shelling" a car. How are those regarded in collecter circles over there? It sounds dubious as to authenticity, great for practicality.

I believe that Classic Car Club Of America of America requires a certain percentage of the original body be extant and used in the restoration in order for it be reagrded as original.

Re-shelling a car is common practice in motorsport, hence also in historic motorsport. I completely agree with you and find it dubious as to the originality of a car. In my opinion, if a car is re-shelled, it took on the identity of the car the shell of which was used. Hardcore collectors will not settle for re-shelled cars. They are purely for people who want to drive their cars and drive them hard, or in competition. I once re-shelled a Escort MK1 RS 2000, which was totalled in a rally. Now, the RS 2000 shell is different from the regular Escort shell from the cowl forward. I used a regular 1300 shell, and grafted on a factory fresh front clip of an RS 2000. Technically, the shell was then authentic for an RS 2000, but I retained the chassis number and registration of the 1300 and hence made no secret out of the fact, that the car was a modified 1300 resembling a RS 2000. I could have grafted in the chassis number of the RS 2000 and claimed it is genuine and nobody would have been able to prove me wrong. People with lesser ethics would have done just that. The car was bought by a guy who then again prepared it for motorsport, which in this case is perfectly acceptable imo.

[Greg Cullinan]

1963 21 window VW Micro-bus just went for 100 grand !

[Junkman]

1963 21 window VW Micro-bus just went for 100 grand !

They sell here for roughly half that money.

[impcon]

1963 21 window VW Micro-bus just went for 100 grand !

Aw man..... that's just plain sick!!! To paraphrase the immortal words of Sheriff Buford T. Justice, "Just what in the heck is this world coming to???" Who would have believed such a thing five years ago? No offence to you Volksy folks but... I'm feelin' sort of ill...

[gasman]

I thought the VW was worth it. it was an odd color combo (silver and black, with red wheels), had some nice VW options on it

odd deal with the Bugatti. sounds like the guy who bid on it didn't have the money to pay for it. they didn't sound to happy about,

[Greg Cullinan]

Yea I was wondering what the deal was. And was it the same guy that bought the VW?

But for Mr. Jackson I would think it will turn into a good investment.

Probably see it in Arizona back on the auction block.

I thought the VW was worth it. it was an odd color combo (silver and black, with red wheels), had some nice VW options on it

odd deal with the Bugatti. sounds like the guy who bid on it didn't have the money to pay for it. they didn't sound to happy about,

I'm pretty sure they do here too,justnot at over inflated auctions

They sell here for roughly half that money.

[Tommy Kortman]

Yea I was wondering what the deal was. And was it the same guy that bought the VW?

The gentleman that bought the VW bus was the gentleman selling the Veyron. It does appear that the looser bidding on and winning the Veyron did not have the $$. Jackson agreed to buy the car so that the consigner did not get screwed. Jackson said he would sell the Veyron to anyone who wanted it.