What exactly is an out of box build?

[MILD]

I know this may seem like a silly question, but what is the definition of OOB? Is it quite literally a build using only elements that come with the kit or is there room to move such as using brass tube for exhausts or after market decals accepted?

I'm speaking from a contest stand point so although I am well aware there will be different personal opinions I am curious as to the more technical answer.

Thanks gents.

[MikeMc]

Whatever CAME in the box......sprues count....no tubing!!

[Jantrix]

Certain things are allowed. BMF for one, is generally globally accepted on OOB because of what it brings to any model. Certain clubs might allow ignition wires or flocking, but that is probably the limit. No major surgery. No top chops or sectioning and the like, but things like smoothing badges, scripts, door handles etc. is usually okay.

I've been recently researching this because I'm building one myself at the moment. One major thing I just found out - if your kit is an old style front axle-through the engine block kit, there had better be an axle though the engine block. According to IPMS guys in my old club that is.

[VW Dave]

For a non-IPMS show, I'd simply check with the host club ahead of time; many times, the rules governing 'box stock' builds can vary by the event. The addition of rigging, antennas and seat belts is usually not within the rules at model car-specific events.

Some event also have what is referred to as 'parts box stock' classes, where parts swapped from other kits are acceptable, but no scratchbuilding or aftermarket details are allowed.

[Railfreak78]

I thought OOB box meant just what came in the box. Nothing else. IMPS actually allows more than I thought.

[Harry P.]

So just like NNLs are not really NNLs, OOB is not really OOB.

[Harry P.]

So then what's the difference between OOB and "box stock?"

Or are they two different names for the same thing?

[Harry P.]

I don't know why people bother entering contests, with all the nonsense that goes on. Rules that say one thing but mean another, "NNLs" that hand out awards, people constantly trying to pull scams, favoritism and/or incompetence by the judges, parents entering a model and claiming their kid built it, etc.

Sheesh...

[Jon Cole]

Let's be reasonable here. In 99.5% of model kits, paint is not included either, but that is allowed! As it should be! Ditto on BMF.... it is now accepted in the hobby as THE way of adding chrome trim.

Anything else... flocking, ignition wires, engine swaps... that just circumvents the intent of the category.

[Jon Cole]

I don't know why people bother entering contests, with all the nonsense that goes on. Rules that say one thing but mean another, "NNLs" that hand out awards, people constantly trying to pull scams, favoritism and/or incompetence by the judges, parents entering a model and claiming their kid built it, etc.

Sheesh...

But Harry, I believe you are on record as never having attended a model contest. You should go... after all, you just may end up enjoying it.

[Danno]

I don't know why people bother entering contests, with all the nonsense that goes on. Rules that say one thing but mean another, "NNLs" that hand out awards, people constantly trying to pull scams, favoritism and/or incompetence by the judges, parents entering a model and claiming their kid built it, etc.

Sheesh...

Yeah. It's kinda like an open public forum.

[Harry P.]

But Harry, I believe you are on record as never having attended a model contest. You should go... after all, you just may end up enjoying it.

All the reasons I just listed are exactly why I don't do the contest thing.

[Jantrix]

All the reasons I just listed are exactly why I don't do the contest thing.

I have found that the good things about going to a contest outweigh the potential problems.

[Art Anderson]

I don't know why people bother entering contests, with all the nonsense that goes on. Rules that say one thing but mean another, "NNLs" that hand out awards, people constantly trying to pull scams, favoritism and/or incompetence by the judges, parents entering a model and claiming their kid built it, etc.

Sheesh...

Frankly Harry, that's a pretty cynical stand, something I wouldn't have figured from you. Yeah, NNL's have given awards, virtually from the get-go, and still do. Yeah, people do cheat sometimes (gee, and I thought our hobby was about realism?) Favoritism on the part of a contest judge? Yes, that does happen on occasion, but truthfully, that isn't a standard characteristic of the vast majority of model car contests. Incompetent judges? Again, "art mirrors life" does it not, when this sort of thing crops up? Dad building a model, son or daughter entering it as their own work? Shades of Cub Scouts and the Pinewood Derby!

But if, as it's alleged, you never go to contests or NNL's, the only thing you have to report on such as above is merely hearsay, is it not?

Hmmmmm....

Art

[Harry P.]

But if, as it's alleged, you never go to contests or NNL's, the only thing you have to report on such as above is merely hearsay, is it not?

Hmmmmm....

Art

I have read about all the things I mentioned, many times, from many people who have witnessed them all first hand.

Cynical? I Don't think so. I'm just going by what people who have "been there and done that" have all said. And the reports are not particularly encouraging.

[Harry P.]

Harry, i think you'd quite enjoy some contests just for the social side of it if anything. i have no interest in competing but i do like to attend a few events a year just for the social part and the swap meet vendor areas.

Dave

I'd agree with that. The only possible way I'd ever go to a contest would be as a spectator, not a participant.

But of course, I only speak for myself. I know contests and competing against other modelers is a big part of the hobby for a lot of people... heck, for some people it's the whole hobby. I don't have any problem with that. If a person likes to compete, more power to 'em. It's just not for me. And when I hear stories about the cheating and the scamming and the inept judging that goes on at some (not all) contests... well, let's say it doesn't exactly make me any more likely to ever go to one!

But that's just me...

[Harry P.]

If a given contest has an "OOB" or "box stock" class, can any model compete as long as it's within the rules? I mean, do snap kits go head to head with much more detailed kits... kits with opening doors, much higher parts count/greater detail, etc. Is the class limited to one scale?

[voljeepx]

I have been pondering this very question myself. The new Corvette ZR1 kit does not come with carbon fiber decals in the kit. Can I use SMS decals and STILL be legal for OOB class? The 1:1 car utilizes c.f. everywhere, and painting it black would look horrible. Judging by the rule book, it seems like I would be okay.

[Harry P.]

yes, a snap kit should be competitive against a glue kit in the OOB class. OOB puts your basic modeling skills to the test so a snap kit could potentially beat out a much more detailed glue kit if the builder of the snap kit built and finished that kit to a higher quality then the builder of the glue kit did. to me OOB is a true test of anyones skills as a modeler. choose a model that has working features and you better get all those features to work and work nicely, otherwise points off. i think another challenge in the OOB class is choosing the best subject for competition in that class.

Dave

Would entering a 1/8 scale, full-blown, detailed-to-the-max, 3,000 parts-count Pocher kit into the OOB class be considered bad form? Unfair? Just plain dumb? (Assuming the kit was in fact really built OOB).

[Harry P.]

Some contests have a whole lot of categories or classes... are all those classes limited to only 1/24-1/25 scale models? Is everything either larger or smaller then lumped together into sort of an "anything and everything else" type of single class... one for large scale and one for small scale?

[Danno]

yes, a snap kit should be competitive against a glue kit in the OOB class. OOB puts your basic modeling skills to the test so a snap kit could potentially beat out a much more detailed glue kit if the builder of the snap kit built and finished that kit to a higher quality then the builder of the glue kit did. to me OOB is a true test of anyones skills as a modeler.

Dave

Exactly. At least in theory. The Out of Box or Box Stock classes emphasize the basic craftsmanship regardless of the engineering or features of the kit. That's one of the reasons instruction sheets are usually required; the judges can check the finished model against the illustrated parts and assembly steps whether they (judges) are familiar with the kit or not.

And yes, a carefully and skillfully built snap kit could easily beat out a sloppily built high detail Pocher kit; it really depends on the talent and effort and precision of the build. Working features matter not at all, and even a high parts count doesn't factor in much.

Some of the toughest challenges judges face in critically-judged contests come from the OOB/BS categories.

OOB/BS is one place where mediocrity does not fare well.

[Harry P.]

Pretty much, for the simple reason that the majority of car modelers tend to favor 1/24-1/25 scale in building, thus the contests reflect that.

Even though I dabble in other scales, (both larger & smaller), I'm the same overall, 1/24/1/25 for the most part.

It seems that contests set up to favor one scale and disadvantage other scales are a bit discriminatory, aren't they? Why not various classes for both large scale and small scale too? If there are not enough entries in any given large or small scale classes, no problem, just eliminate that class for that particular event… but at least give people the chance to enter their model and compete fairly. Or just eliminate scale distinctions altogether and let a model of any scale compete in whatever class the builder enters into?

Don't mean to stir up trouble... just asking, because to me the way model contests favor one (or two, I guess) scales and force anyone else into some sort of "also-ran" category is inherently biased and unfair for no particular reason that I can see.

[Danno]

Some contests have a whole lot of categories or classes... are all those classes limited to only 1/24-1/25 scale models? Is everything either larger or smaller then lumped together into sort of an "anything and everything else" type of single class... one for large scale and one for small scale?

Generally, yes.

IPMS does something interesting with the Out of Box concept. Each class has within itself an OOB award, if any OOB models are entered. So, if they have 25 classes, they could potentially have 25 OOB winners in addition to the 25 class winners. I'm not sure on the next point, but I believe an OOB entry could also win both the OOB and "Best" of the class ~~ potentially garnering two awards with one model if it is both out of box and the "Best" overall in the class. Or, the class might have a 1-2-3 plus an OOB winner.

[Danno]

It seems that contests set up to favor one scale and disadvantage other scales are a bit discriminatory, aren't they? Why not various classes for both large scale and small scale too? If there are not enough entries in any given large or small scale classes, no problem, just eliminate that class for that particular event… but at least give people the chance to enter their model and compete fairly. Or just eliminate scale distinctions altogether and let a model of any scale compete in whatever class the builder enters into?

Don't mean to stir up trouble... just asking, because to me the way model contests favor one (or two, I guess) scales and force anyone else into some sort of "also-ran" category is inherently biased and unfair for no particular reason that I can see.

I can't speak for all contests, but the ones I have been (and still am) involved in administering have the same basic experience: "other" scale entries represent only a very small percentage of the contest entries, and often consist of a very limited type of vehicle. For example, the COPPERSTATE MODEL CAR CHAMPIONSHIP usually had 300-400 entries, of which only 8 to 12 were "other" scale. We had 29 classes for 1/24-1/25 models and two "other" scale classes ("Large Scale" - 1/20th and larger - and "Small Scale" - 1/32nd and smaller). With only a handful of "other" scale entries, we could not justify having 29 individual classes for each scale breakdown. And, often the "other" scale entries were submitted by only a couple of builders.

In short, the demographics just didn't support handling it any other way.

And, human nature being what it is, we found way too much resistance to the idea of combining all scales ... entrants screamed like mashed cats if you suggested their 1/25 curbside would be judged against a Big Deuce. Don't know why, but it just happened. However, we never had any complaints about the system we used.

Many times either or both the "Small Scale" class and "Large Scale" class went unpopulated. But we always kept the classes on our agenda so as to support any builders who showed up. We would not cancel or discontinue a class unless it went three years without a single entry.

And, a side note: From year to year the population of entries in certain classes was a changing dynamic. For example: one year the "Early Street Rod" class might have dozens of entries and be hotly contested while the "NASCAR" class might have only one or two entries and we were unable to present all the class awards. The next year, the "Early Street Rod" class might be a ghost town while the "NASCAR" class sported more than a dozen entries. Ah, yes. Human nature again!

[highway]

Would entering a 1/8 scale, full-blown, detailed-to-the-max, 3,000 parts-count Pocher kit into the OOB class be considered bad form? Unfair? Just plain dumb? (Assuming the kit was in fact really built OOB).

Harry, really like most everyone else has said, that would really depend on the show itself. I know in my former club's show, the Ohio Valley Scale Modelers, most if not all of our classes were divided by subject, not scale. The first show I attended way back when before I had joined the club, I had a 1/12 scale Camaro in the box stock, if I remember correctly, class and a 1/87 scale big rig in the heavy commercial class in among the 1/24(5) scale entries. As long as you would have had the instructions with the Pocher kit, you would have had no problem entering our box stock category!

As for the rules we used for our box stock categories, when I first joined in the early 90s, it was strictly whatever came in the box, only paint was allowed for detail. That meant no BMF, no aftermarket decals, no anything that was not in the kit. If it was not on the instruction sheet, we did not consider it box stock. Of course, after BMF started becoming more and more popular, we did allow BMF, but drew the line at that. Decals had to be the kit decals and detailing materials, such as the Monogram "High Performance Series" kits that came with wiring for the spark plugs and radiator hoses, had to be in the box when it was bought and on the instructions.